3 valve piccs can work IF we have an half tone extension for the third valve (1+2+3 should give us the low concert D with the A tuning). Then all of the D major baroque stuff works. I have a 3 valve rotary pic and it is my go to instrument for baroque literature in D or Eb when I play modern horns.
Arban only speaks about the Cornet á piston or simply "piston". I have never seen any reference tying Arban to a rotary valved anything. It also looks like someone else besides the bell engraver engraved the name into the bell.
I would be interested to see what proof Josh got of the provenance of this instrument.
@J-Jericho Half of the fun is the positive comments from colleagues for the idea. The coke bottles are physically more stable than much of the competition. My favorite is the smaller 0.33 liter mute. In theory, this is an adaptation of the Renuzit mute.
@Trumpetb My point is that we do not NEED TO PERFORM WITH the original instruments to get the original intentions of the composer. For some people, myself included, learning and performing with them does however, offer additional palettes of color to use.
As the trumpet through its history has changed about every 50 years, I would place most of the "blame" for lost technique and tone clearly with the trumpeters. Even in the Jazz genre, how many players just noodle around without really embracing the various periods in jazz? How many can play a convincing Bix or Dizzy chorus? What about a whole evening of 1920s jazz (or 1950s for that matter). Sure, we may hear some licks that apply, but a whole evening? The same is true with cornetto choruses called diminuation. It is not a hard concept, the patterns developed over time and also applied to a certain extent to the baroque period.
The ignorance that is displayed - even by some (if not many) professionals, is simply laziness not lack of sources, information or role models. It certainly is not hardware based. There are even courses to build your own cornetto or natural trumpet.
I would not consider anything lost rather ignored.
@ButchA said in Not really a "mouthpiece safari" but the need for a "saving grace" type of mouthpiece...:
In review:
Bach 10¾CW - arguably the easiest MP to play both low and high without any straining.
Bach 3C - a fantastic MP with a full sound, but after the high A, I start straining.
Curry 3M. - a really amazing, custom, MP that is (according to Mark Curry) in between a 3C and a 3D. I went right up to the high C with minimal straining.
In my world, no direct mouthpiece comparison has any meaning at all. We need to acclimate and that takes time. I have played mouthpieces (like the 14A4A) that were 15 minutes of bliss then caved because my lips bottomed out. I certainly could have solved that problem, but at what cost? Only a couple of months can tell!
We are the sum of what we repeatedly do. Regular and intelligent practice helps us create reliable playing targets. Mouthpiece searches - especially for those without well trained embouchures are a crap shoot!
I recommend picking ONE MOUTHPIECE and sticking with it for a couple of months. At that time, if you have been taking notes, you should be able to come up with the next step (stick with the mouthpiece or change).
As far as your comparison, it sounds like it was done in a small room. When trying to fill up larger playing venues, small mouthpieces can be a lot of work.
Please do not confuse what works for strong players with recommendations for weaker players.
My take on the piccolo trumpet? It is simply another trumpet. Any instrument needs time to figure out what it can do. That means IF we are interested, we start slowly and build basic skills - then move to more difficult things.
Samurai, you documented a VERY serious weakness in your playing. "I recently borrowed a piccolo trumpet from a friend and tried playing "Bolero" and "Exhibition"."
What did you expect? You claim to have played it well on the C trumpet - do you think that your definition of "well" is the same as mine (serious question). Would the truth be more like "I barely get through with the C but crash with the picc"? I have played first trumpet often enough on Pictures - it is serious work even for professional players.
I use a G trumpet with a big bell for Schmüyle (everything else on the Bb or C depending on the orchestra. He was a skinny, lying, cheating, nervous runt and probably owed Samuel Goldenberg money. That nervousness is not what I associate with the picc. I play the high Bolero part on the D trumpet.
The picc is/was an incredible opportunity for me to earn money on church gigs - supporting even until today, my trumpet collecting.
When I get a new trumpet, I stay in the comfort zone for as long as it takes to get acclimated. With the Bb picc that was high C above the staff. I played easy oboe and recorder chamber music at the beginning. Then came "glorious C and D major baroque trumpet literature". I always warmed up with the big trumpet and finished the practice session with the same. The picc was "embedded" in between. Clarke, Arban - all of the same routines - just up an octave. I do not post about my adventures until I have figured out how things work. I certainly do not assume that anyone is impressed by the "hard music" that I claim to have tried.
So, back to the serious weakness: when we approach something, we need to start slowly. We are creatures of habit and if we jump into the deep end, we usually develop bad habits that are much more difficult to cure later. Thoughtful practice means that we know our strengths and weaknesses and practice to perfect. With THIS attitude, the picc is a project for a month or two before we can start to make music. After that, we simply practice it along with our other instruments and keep balance. It is just another trumpet.
@grune Even if it were "accurate" what does that mean? Can our eyes tell us how a mouthpiece rim will interface to our lips? It only shows the rim and cup - a lot of how a mouthpiece feels is in the bore and backbore however. We are sensitive to contours in 1/1000ths - how "accurately" can a 72dpi -150dpi screen image be.
The comparator for me is evidence that Kanstul measured many typical mouthpieces in a repeatable way. That makes it probably the best database out there. I can say however that the Kanstul Monette copies had nothing to do with the real thing - from "feeling" or playing characteristics. I am sure that the rim and cup were accurately measured - there is more to feel than the rim and cup...
I have made some interesting discoveries during my career.
I do not consider scales to be evil or out of place. They are simply part of the low impact repetition toolbox that can give a student patterns for recall in many different contexts. They are an essential part of holistic development in my world. I use them for teaching just about every technical discipline that a trumpeter must develop: time, transposition, intonation, articulation, range. Naturally they are not the "only" things taught. We had a discussion about proportions during practice/ lessons at TrumpetMaster. I remember agreeing with several about approximately 1/3rd body use, 1/3rd technical studies and 1/3rd tunes/repertoire. We discussed the issues surrounding a "too rigid" structure and having the student in clear focus. During periods of high dedication, we the teachers can raise the bar at many levels - if we have a method to even define the bar..
My personal view is that we must feed our internal reward system. Measurable success changes the way that our central nervous system processes stimuli. Mosche Feldenkrais and several Yogis deal with this at an even higher level.
Proper use of scales makes the Haydn, Hummel, Neruda, Tartini, Verdi Requiem, Tschaikowsky 5 certainly "easier".
I have also had mixed results with PVA and gap - regardless if I did it or I had my artisan of preference do it.
What ALWAYS worked was a complete disassembly of the horn - unsoldering EVERYTHING soft soldered, reassembling without jigs or tension applied to the parts, solder cleanup and polish inside, then valve job, PVA/gap.
I believe that there is a short and long term "break in" of the horn and player. Short term, it is wear/mechanical (valves/slides) for the hardware and acclimation of the player. Long term it is tempre, wear (gap, leaky slides and valves) and the training of preferences in our ears/brain. Those preferences can be blow, sound, color or intonation - all being related.
I would insist that the major difference between many "older" cornets and trumpets is the mouthpiece and attitude of the player. If someone wants a killer 50s Martin Committee for cheap, buy the cornet and get a good tech to change the mouthpiece receiver to trumpet.
All reasonable colleagues will have no issue!
@stumac I think that a "barrel" backbore would be something like the Schmidt Backbore that Schilke uses as well as certain hyperbolic shapes used by Monette.
Those that get excited about backbores need to keep in mind that the rim, cup, throat, leadpipe and bell are also in the system and that any advantage is very much dependent on the synergy.
A good playing mouthpiece with a standard backbore gets a flat upper register when we change the backbore in this way. Some like that because they play tense and that compensates...
Hmm, I probably shouldn't answer, but the original post struck me in a way that I can't let go of easily.
I don't think that ANYONE OWES ANYONE ELSE ANYTHING. Posters that come on with how they have been given a rough time are very suspicious in my book. The second "telltale" tidbit in this thread is the mention of low funds being a reason to call fair repair rates "outrageous" or even the myth of those "outrageous" prices driving us to DIY.
Skilled veterans NEVER treat musicians in need with "contempt" (their may be other types of non-customers that rub them in a way that generates less cooperation however! As a matter of fact, the seasoned veterans (at least all that I know) are usually very willing to help the needy in special ways.
My drive to DIY is based only on my personal interest about how things work and none of my techs have heartburn about it.
Now if we can get beyond the very bogus "contempt" for those making an honest living, there are a lot of resources available for the DIY trumpeter. I took a natural trumpet building course that lasted 5 days. We had three professionals showing us (13 course members) their "tricks of the trade", from soldering to brazing, to making tubes and bells, hand hammering, bending our self made tubes and engraving. In addition, we all had successfully built a working trumpet after 4 days.
The artisans that I work with are very responsive when I ask "Can you show me how to do that". I have learned how to properly change leadpipes, set the gap on a mouthpiece receiver and what happens when we move a brace. They have helped me to purchase the right tools for specific jobs. They have all let me in on "secret tweeks" - knowing that I would not abuse the information.
I know of no website with trumpet repair tips for the DIY scene. The reasons are manifold. No respect, strong differences in the definition of "quality", myths.
So, my recommendation is to look in the mirror. Maybe, just maybe you will see something that could change your relationship with the professionally qualified. My firsthand experience is that they are much more forthcoming than the way you came on in your original post.
Opening the throat does not make the mouthpiece less stuffy. It makes the "targets" or slotting looser - a big advantage for Bach C trumpets with the high third space C, flat 4th space E and sometimes sharp top of staff G.
I have found that "stuffy" generally means that I can't hear myself well. Even with my current setup that is wonderful in churches and concert halls, when I play outdoors with little reflective surfaces, it feels stuffy. Experiments with the 1 1/2C back in the day, had me push the tuning slide in further (making me slightly sharp) and then relaxing more when playing. After a short while, the more relaxed chops resulted in much more open sound and far less embouchure tension - great for more endurance and a better upper register. In addition, articulation got easier where my face muscles were doing less.
I would suggest experimenting with pushing the tuning slide in so that you are maybe 10 cents sharp, and then "lipping" everything slightly down. For me it was like pulling the cork out after a week or two. 10 cents is not much work to compensate and I found it much easier to hear myself with the "new" tone.
@GeorgeB For things at the limit of what I can play (recently 1st trumpet in the orchestra version of Rimsky-Korsakovs Scheherezade), my standard take is to completely memorize the difficult licks. Once I have freed up my eyes, they do not slow my fingers or tongue down any more! 
Playing any given tone is the process of our air pressure being able to "blow apart" the lips. If we can't play low notes, the usual situation is that the lips are pressed too tightly together. We can not just intellectually tell our facial muscles to "relax". Playing the trumpet is fine motor activity that needs many low impact repetitions to create muscle memory.
In my "circle of breath" (which is only a collection of things from others with my individual visualisation), I mention exhaling into the note. That is what is needed here. Tonguing the note adds a burst of air pressure to kick start the tone and that is NOT A GOOD THING at this stage. We should only use the tongue to "shape" the beginning of a tone (articulate). We can only start to shape when we have "tone in the first place".
Exhale into the long tones.
New Years Eve: Spectacular baroque D- Major (actually in historic pitch so it is glorious Db major)
New Years (and the rest of January): New Years concerts with operetta works from Strauss father and Son, Lehár, Bizet, Liszt, Kálmán, Stoltz plus musicals.
We should never forget Maurice Andrés Hora Legato!
What an original way to get brass players to look at a specific brand never before mentioned at this site. The OP didn't say anything about what kind of horns, mouthpieces or accessories that they wanted to carry. Sounds almost like they were trying to sneak this in as an ad!
The 4 trumpet case seems to be pretty flimsy inside and expensive on the outside. The dealers that I frequent do not carry it, so I cannot offer anything special other than there is nothing that draws special attention to any detail.
Do not we all go through "stages" in our life before we even identify our own voice? Do not we from birth on "emulate" until we collect enough tools to follow our own path - first with attitude, then speech, then learning to walk... Do not many of us reach a level of "good enough for the gigs that I get" and actually play more than invest in new skills?
I always have trouble with out of context online criticism. I know from my own development and that of my students how many small steps are required to reach any particular goal.
I like Fabrizios playing. Thank you George for the link. I hear a lot of shedding and a certain command of the "jazz" genre. He is so far along, that many (including myself) could learn something even if he is not Miles, Cannonball or any other popular jazzer.
Let us watch his development over time. The media is not always kind to newcomers, we have a real opportunity here before others spoil it.
@Kehaulani Yes, it is chicken and egg BUT you can have your cake and eat it too! I have a student with a reading deficiency. They can read a single line, but to move to the second line is almost impossible. We solved the issue by memorizing the last measure or two on one line and the first on the next. Confidence soars, reading quality goes up!