Best posts made by ROWUK

@furcifer I am not sure that Bach Snob is really a valid generalization. Most of the trumpeters that I know and have known, play what they play and certainly NEVER picked their horn for snobbish reasons. There is a reason that Bach is popular - it simply sounds good. Great core and blend. Easy to play (well most of the Bb are) and their reputation is built on that sound. There was a time when almost nothing else was found in the major symphony orchestras. Players that trained the current generation of top teachers - many of which have switched to Yamaha. Fast forward 30 years and we now see that Yamaha in fact has taken the lead - in student, intermediate and pro trumpets. Schilke has jumped on the same bandwagon - with the HD model. The B&S Challenger series also shares a similar core sound.

My point was that a vintage trumpet is not necessarily a good choice for someone in high school and that a generally accepted "standard" type instrument is a better base instrument. Certainly Bach has withstood the test of time (including hard times) - can we say that about the defunct Martin corporation? What happened to Holton, Buescher, Conn and Olds? Where are Selmer Trumpets today? They did not die because of snobbery.

I am a professional in Europe where Bach is generally not the instrument of choice. My main piston axe is a Monette Raja C trumpet, my second most used piston axe is a Bach C trumpet that I bought in 1975. I play far more rotary and valveless instruments however. Still, in the best interest of a student, we do need to consider things, even if we ourselves have the freedom to do other things.

3 valve piccs can work IF we have an half tone extension for the third valve (1+2+3 should give us the low concert D with the A tuning). Then all of the D major baroque stuff works. I have a 3 valve rotary pic and it is my go to instrument for baroque literature in D or Eb when I play modern horns.

@mike-ansberry I am not sure that the Getzen will ever be one of those "rare finds" that command top dollar. If the hook is professionally attached, all traces can be removed during a restoration. I would go for it!

Håkan is trying to unlock her ears and brain. She is a well accomplished technical player BUT she is not listening to the result of her playing in the room. She is playing "safe" inside her head. It will take time to develop these additional talents. She shows great promise!

@furcifer we do not, or did not disagree.
As far as getting market share, there are a lot of factors involved - many having nothing to do with quality.
I still maintain that a "vintage" trumpet is not necessarily a good choice for someone in high school - unless someone can responsibly confirm intonation, valve condition and playability beforehand.

My first instrument was a 1911 Holton Long Cornet that I inherited from my grandfather in the late '60s. He used spit and water instead of valve oil and the condition of the valves certainly were a "problem". I was lucky and had a trumpet playing music teacher that worked with my parents to get me another horn in excellent playing condition. It was like pulling the cork out! Now 50+ years later, I am still performing professionally (with other horns). With the playing handicap of the old horn, who knows what I would be doing today.

Staying in shape is a process. Currently we are replacing certain opportunities with others and this can affect our playing in a serious way.
When we play in large rooms (bandroom or concert venues), what reaches our ears is considerably different than playing with a mute or in a small practiceroom/bedroom.

We need to find larger spaces to practice in. That promotes tone and the servo loop Player/horn->room->ears/brain. We are creatures of habit. Improve our habits and our playing becomes more stable. Even playing outdoors is a BIG help s tone has an opportunity to develop.

The change in timbre is based on the cylindrical to tapered proportions as well as the specific partial being played.
Many modern piston trumpets have been homogenised for a generally even tone. Rotary trumpets are not so "homogenised" and even a change in register creates a change in tone. Composers like Bruckner, Mahler, Strauss and Wagner even composed for the unhomogenised state.

What is "value"? Do we compare purchase price to what you can recover after 5 or 10 years?

I have always learned that we buy cheap tools twice.

All trumpets have "multiple" bores. The leadpipe "average" is a start. Then the valve cluster, and then the bore up until the bell flare starts.
A good example of Dual Bore would be every trumpet with a reverse tuning slide.

I believe that the dual bore was simply a further marketing term for technology that makes a trumpet ever more cornet-like. Real trumpets in the traditional sense were cylindrical except for the bell and mouthpiece. Over 60% of the bore is cylindrical in this case.
The first valved trumpets were the longer natural instruments with valves. As the instruments got shorter (solely for the purpose of more accuracy - never because of tone), the proportion of tapered to cylindrical bore shifted with less than 50% and "modern C trumpets" are lucky if they are ⅓ cylindrical - now they are more members of the horn family.
So, the King dual-bore does not make large bore easier playing or medium bore bigger sounding. It is a marketing term that has not survived the test of time. If you find a good one, it is simply another old trumpet worth playing.

@walter-sk Microns separate easy and hard removal. It is still a simple job for a tech but "all your strength" could make the repair very costly.
I have had students with this problem. It can happen if one lays the trumpet down with the 2nd slide underneath. It takes a small hit (no dent) and it is microns out...

@JWM The #1 reason for range just stopping at a specific note is too much damn pressure.

A buzz is nothing more than the lips opening and closing at a certain frequency. If we apply large amounts of arm pressure to the embouchure, we need far more air pressure to blow the lips apart. That is not a very responsive system!

In my view, the easiest way to break this habit is to turn the testosterone down. Play ONLY very, very softly for a couple of weeks and focus on the air doing the work. Overdose on pianissimo lipslurs and long tones. Practice to get the sound to start on a wisp of air.

Generally, it takes only a lesson or two to get students doing this reliably. The biggest problem with a social media recommendation is that body use can not be controlled. If someones body is twisted into knots, a big relaxed breath is a challenging thing. Exhaling also becomes a real chore.

My full view is in several posts that I made called "the circle of breath". This is a collection of things from many disciplines. Google it and if there is something unclear, just ask.

I would insist that the major difference between many "older" cornets and trumpets is the mouthpiece and attitude of the player. If someone wants a killer 50s Martin Committee for cheap, buy the cornet and get a good tech to change the mouthpiece receiver to trumpet.
All reasonable colleagues will have no issue!

@Trumpetb I understand you actually quite well. I also disagree with a lot that you post - because it all seems so random and not based on real experience. It is also very confusing considering that we have readers that can not tell the difference.
I disagree with "zeroing in" between mouthpiece and each horn - unless the mouthpiece has the same rim and cup and only minor shank work is necessary. Before my Monette period, I used the same mouthpiece on all my trumpets except for when I played lead. Monette builds Bb, C and Eb mouthpieces so I use the same size, cup and throat for all of those horns. Even the flugel and cornet mouthpiece have the same rim.
I would also disagree that mouthpieces GENERALLY change with style unless we are comparing lead to everything else.
We are creatures of habit and to get a stable base, we need to reduce our choices to optimize with the limited time that those of us posting here have.
If accuracy is a non issue for your playing, then the free for all is fine.
I do not need multiple mouthpieces for symphonic, chamber, commercial or big band (except lead). My chosen mouthpiece is dynamic enough in its behaviour that I do not experience problems that I can't fix just by practicing more.
Now, the bogus use of the word physics in this context is worth clarifying. IF high quality playing is critical, we actually have very few choices. We need very clear articulation, clear tone from low to high. We need a tone compatible with the section that we play in as well as great flexibility, security and good intonation. Please do not compare Till Brönner to Maynard Ferguson or Jean Francois Madeuf to Maurice Andre. They also have/had narrow choices that cover(ed) their specialized playing.
So, a lot of words around a very simple concept: jack of no trade and master of none. Creatures of habit need repetitions to develop a flexible tone covering many use cases. Creatures of habit need repetitions to build security and style. For players without a very strong foundation, changes are the primary cause of unreliability. Find the mouthpiece and practice routine that is the best compromise and stick with it.
Remember! this thread is about a player with an elusive high G# - so no lead, solo career, no historical performance practice or anything else with "special" hardware or non compatible tone. No hardware will solve this. It is mind over matter and perhaps Clarke is the answer, or maybe Schlossberg, for others it could just be getting too damn much pressure reduced a little bit.

@flugler Quoting us a price from Japan is very unrealistic as the market there is primarily for collectors - not players. Everywhere else in the world, people are looking for deals. 6 grand+ gets me a Monette or a Martin - both certainly in a different league than the Calicchio. Maybe I have not been paying attention here at TrumpetBoards, but I do not know of anyone here in that "more money than common sense" market.
The price is fine for Japan. That type of money here would be banking on the price going up. I do not see that happening. Calicchios reputation at the time was value for the price and Dominics service.

By the way, this is the wrong place for your post. It belongs in the classifieds section.

Generally, only really serious dents (tube almost mashed together) will affect the intonation.
That being said, a technician that knows enough to tell you if removing the dent can cause a tear or hole, should be able to judge if it is intonation critical. If after a repair, a patch was applied, this will also not have any serious effect on intonation - especially if we are not talking about a professional player and her/his favorite horn!

One recommendation that I would offer to Anthony: please post pictures when you ask questions like this. Maybe we could offer advice BEFORE you make an uninformed decision. Some of us have been doing this for a VERY LONG TIME!

I have never had a dent tear because my tech annealed the dents before doing anything. Annealing is a process to soften the grain structure of metal to reduce stress. It is used when originally forming the tuning slide and slide bows as well as when hammering the bell.

@GeorgeB For things at the limit of what I can play (recently 1st trumpet in the orchestra version of Rimsky-Korsakovs Scheherezade), my standard take is to completely memorize the difficult licks. Once I have freed up my eyes, they do not slow my fingers or tongue down any more!

4 valved trumpets are NOT an afterthought. The 4th valve is generally a purpose built device. It can be permanently attached to the valve block or integrated into the tuning slide.

We have 4th valves for playing ¼ tones - found in middle east and experimental music.

There are ½ tone valves for easily switching a Bb trumpet to A. These are found mostly on vintage instruments built between 1900 and 1920.

There are also whole tone 4th valves to extend the range of a modern orchestral C trumpet to low E which allows playing the handful of very low Bb parts.

Then there are 4th valves that lower the pitch by a 4th to extend the chromatic range to pedal C. These can often be found on high pitched trumpets like in high G, high A and high Bb. In this case, they extend the range to allow playing the lowest notes for typical baroque music.

One further use of a 4th valve is to allow switching between 2 bells (Bobby Shew Shew horn).

My thoughts are if you are not playing specialty music, the 4th valve is useless and can actually make the instrument harder to play.

Playing any given tone is the process of our air pressure being able to "blow apart" the lips. If we can't play low notes, the usual situation is that the lips are pressed too tightly together. We can not just intellectually tell our facial muscles to "relax". Playing the trumpet is fine motor activity that needs many low impact repetitions to create muscle memory.

In my "circle of breath" (which is only a collection of things from others with my individual visualisation), I mention exhaling into the note. That is what is needed here. Tonguing the note adds a burst of air pressure to kick start the tone and that is NOT A GOOD THING at this stage. We should only use the tongue to "shape" the beginning of a tone (articulate). We can only start to shape when we have "tone in the first place".

Exhale into the long tones.

Play before you pay. This is an old horn and no one will say if it has been "repaired" or not. Because the picture quality is low, bell creases would go unnoticed.
I have played Radial 2° from miserable to brilliant and never could blindly recommend them. I paid 500 euros for my Bb - but played before paying. Mine is only a bit better than "good" and I am working on making it "great" - probably at a cost of $700 to $1,000 ...

Get well soon!