@Dr-GO Yes, I do browse the site from time to time. I do happen to be busy with many things (performances and preparing for a master class) that keep me away from casual computing.

As far as my posting at TrumpetMaster, that was an outlet for many concepts that I use when teaching and in my „industry“ job.

As far as grudges go, I am sorry that hindsight has not changed some peoples view of the world. Those that were banned had a „long series“ of behavior that was not „community“. In general, the admins posted in a protected area about those people and we were able to get other opinions before taking any action. Who actually banned who was not always clear as there was no flag visible to admins.

Wilmer died, may he rest in piece. All of the real professionals at TrumpetMaster had a certain degree of frustration with certain members who seemed to think that the supposed anonimity of the web gave them license to spew stupidity. I am convinced that in a real 1 on 1 lesson, the tone would have been completely different - far more respectful. I also often considered leaving TrumpetMaster but in the end, the real problem children (those only on transmit (TX) but not receive (RX)) were so few and the quantity of „respectful“ members gave me joy.

The essence of what I posted was just to take a step back, view the issue in its entirety and address the root cause instead of offering a patch for a symptom. This strategy works everywhere except in marriage (that being said, I have been with the same wife - my first - since 1978).

I still am not ready to make a commitment like I made to myself at TrumpetMaster. I am disappointed in the owner of TrumpetMaster for no warning or communication about closure. I certainly hope that the problem was not due to death or health issues.

Keep practicing!

Robin

It is important to recognize context when talking about "quality". A students instrument can have a very high quality, but the focus is on different things!
A beginner handles their instrument more by "chance" than by "experience". This means that a student instrument must be very durable to insure good mechanical properties even when not regularly maintained. The next mark of a high quality student instrument is how easily it "speaks". It needs to resonate easily with good tone. The player has to hear themselves easily. The valves will not have as tight of a tolerance to prevent them from hanging when not regularly brushing teeth before playing!

I will leave out "intermediate" instruments as I personally really see no musical sense to them. We can move from a Yamaha 2xxx or 3xxx directly to the 8xxx series for instance.

Professional instruments are not "soldered or designed better" than the student instruments. The improvements are in the time it takes to manipulate the materials for a playing response more closely connected to the players intentions. Instead of "durability", materials are used that allow a greater choice of playing colors, perhaps more ease of playing extremely soft and loud. The ability for "articulation" to be heard. A more controllable transition from clear to brilliant in a crescendo. In many cases, professional instruments have considerably more manual labor in their construction and that costs money.

I certainly agree that buying a beginner a pro horn normally does no one a favor. we start on a bicycle with training wheels, not carbon fiber rims. As our use case matures, we have opportunities to offer more colorful playing. A professional instrument can help us tap those talents by giving our ears/brain less gaps to fill in. When our vocabulary and quality of musical speech warrant it, the pro horn lets us shine through more.

I remember the Buzz/Phooey discussion at TrumpetMaster. It went nowhere fast.

The lips open and close like a valve at a rate related to the length of the trumpet. Each fingering has multiple notes based on the wavelength being played. The pedal note is one wavelength in the instrument. Low C is 2 wavelengths, G is 3 wavelengths, third space C is 4 wavelengths. This continues until our lips are no longer able to open and close - due to pressure, tension or lack of being supple.

I consider the buzz or alternate start of lip vibration to be an insignificant semantic argument with no redeeming value. We are talking about the same thing: ignition of the lips, initialization of the vibrating mode. Regardless if one calls it Phooey or a buzz, fact is, we blow air through the lips with a certain amount of lip tension and they resonate. This blow can be a relaxed exhale to a forceful expulsion of air. Articulation comes later when we modify the start to "speak". To speak a "phoo or foo" we would need our lower teeth on the upper lip prior to ignition. That certainly does not line up with most embouchures - especially considering that most have an overbite (upper teeth in front of lower teeth). Perhaps for players with an underbite (upper teeth behind the lower teeth) phoo would be what at least they "think" that they are doing. Considering that ignition needs freely vibrating lips, beyond the exhale, it really does not matter.

Some players have trouble with a free buzz. That is in most cases insignificant as we always play trumpet through a mouthpiece. Some players have trouble with a buzz through a mouthpiece. This is also in many cases insignificant as we rely on the resonances of the horn to modulate and stabilize pitch. Some like buzzing free, on the mouthpiece or with some resonance enhancing scheme (leadpipe or P.E.T.E). Good for them. It never helped my playing and I never taught it. I certainly would not criticize another teacher with good experience in buzzing however-as long as the player is getting a well balanced routine every day.

I found the arguments at TrumpetMaster regarding this to be little more than annoying as the real issues of getting the sound started are masked in senseless arguing.

If we can't get our semantics to line up, then beating a dead horse is not productive. Let us just talk about ignition instead.

As far as Yamahas claim to deeper cups being more mellow, science backs this up. The more cup volume, the more it acts like a low pass acoustical filter - reducing upper harmonics (compared to a cup with less volume). Less harmonics is a "darker/more mellow" sound.

The throat/backbore indeed also has great effect on sound and intonation as well as efficiency. That has nothing to do with Yamahas claims at the mentioned website.

We should never forget that the target audience determines the semantics. The casual reader really could care less and at least gets some valid pre-chewed recommendations. As they advance in perception and capability, they go elsewhere for mor detailed info.

@Kehaulani said in RIP Trumpet "Master":

If I'm not mistaking, the Circle of Breath is not rowuk's but is just another way of describing time honored techniques. No disrespect to rowuk, who's posts I always enjoyed and am grateful for lot of good advice, but what is unique about it to give it a distinct name and attribute the techniques to any one man. What did I miss?

I will assume that this statement was made because I only posted Circle of Breath at the now dead Trumpetmaster.

This is true. The concepts in the „Circle of Breath“ are age old, tried and true. They are a complete routine that I have been using since the 1970s. I do not know of anyone else that coined the phrase „Circle of Breath“ in this context so I will take credit for the name. Aligning the body first(Yoga, Feldenkrais, Alexander Technique), deep relaxed breath, playing longtones and slurs without an attack (Irons and others) are certainly not unique. I was always surprised that there are many (even accomplished) players that were never introduced to these basic concepts. This combination has been effective with every player that I have worked with. Just to outline the process:

1. Prepared body - straight/aligned to allow for a deep relaxed breath
2. exhale into long tones. We teach our lips to ignite on a wisp of air. The tongue tip is later used only to shape the articulation - not enable ignition of the lips
3. exhale into lipslurs

The circle is divided into two sections. At the bottom (6 o‘clock) we start our inhale. At 12 o‘clock we switch to exhale with all of the smoothness that a circle has. We exhale to 6 o‘clock and then the smooth transition to inhale starts. The time to inhale is not fixed.

We breathe through the nose as long as there is time enough. The air is moistened and adjusted in temperature.
If we do NOT have time, we breathe through the mouth.

Both methods of inhale must be practiced as well as their transition to exhale and back.

I use the Irons lip flexibilities book for the lipslur part.

Please feel free to move this post anywhere that would better serve the community.

Here is a method of creating a cheap but effective practice mute. I saw this mute at the international Natural Trumpet Workshop near Basel 2 weeks ago, so I am just sharing/documenting the idea.

In Germany, we have 2 "single portion" types of Coke bottles. .33 liters or for the more thirsty, .5 liters.

1. The first step is to get rid of the Coke (in my case Coke Zero)! Then wash out the bottle and let dry.
   
2. Now cut the top off as in the picture. Leave a little of the straight sides to provide a flat gluing surface:
   
3. Cut the bottom off as shown and discard the middle part:
   
4. Test the top and bottom parts for fit:
   
5. Glue both parts together with your favorite glue and use tape to secure during the drying process(make sure that the glue is suitable for PET):
   
6. Cut off the rim on the neck:
   
   
7. For the gasket between the mute and bell I used a bicycle grip
   
   
8. Drill a hole in the top a bit smaller than a drinking straw
   
9. for the 0.33 liter mute( middle) cut a straw to 3cm and glue it into the hole. For the 0.5 liter mute (right), a 2cm length works well
   

Longer straw lengths do not reduce volume as much but are more free blowing. Too short lengths reduce volume but are very stuffy/fuzzy

Even although I own some trumpets that qualify in this thread, I think that the concept is bogus. Players buy custom horns because they CAN, not because they musically "have to".

There is a concept that the horn finds the player that I think is very true - but how much opportunity do we get to play those custom horns long enough before we pay? Being honest - essentially never. Has anyone checked out how many used custom horns are available - more than one would expect considering how special they are supposed to be.

Another misconception is the custom horn built for the player. Well, the truth is that all of those custom builders are giving you what they believe. You may get a choice of bell, bore or weight, but what trumpeter really understands how a trumpet works AND how they work? What builder takes the time to really get to know the intimate side of a clients playing. Who has the ability to finesse the strengths of a player in the match of instrument. I can only think of one manufacturer that does and it only works like that on the second, third or fourth instrument.

So, my take is:

1. start safe with a "standard" Bach, Schilke, Yamaha if you are really serious. Then as time goes on and dues are paid, play everything that you can get your hands on. Visit players that have "interesting horns" and take your time.
2. if you get a second horn, play it exclusively for a while to get intimate with it
3. NEVER EVER believe that hardware will solve a software problem.

@barliman2001 said in Did something change?:

@ROWUK I agree with you that TB has not yet reached the kind of wealth of information that TM had... but then, many old TM members did not switch to TB when TM suddenly went dead.

I do not think that the problem is number of members. What bothers me is who posts why. I do not share the sense of humor of others and having an opinion just because we can is not always a good reason to torpedo threads. I am convinced that many think that they are funny and do not even realize the damage that they do. Sometimes just keeping a thread serious would be a great course of action. The NY Phil controversy is a good example. What torpedoed it had nothing to do with the charge or the aftermath. The second thread was simply embarassing.

Here are a couple of my wood projects:
Cherry

Oak

Baltic Birch Plywood (the horns are fibreglass)

@mike-ansberry This is a HUGE topic. I built my own, horn loudspeakers and low powered tube amplification.

@_mark_
I believe that you are not in any position to comment on anything except the symptoms that you notice. Trying to "analyse" the issue with no base knowledge just leads to useless hardware and embouchure changes.
Irregular teeth are no issue unless you learned to play on perfect teeth and then they got messed up in an accident (ask me how I know).
Moving the mouthpiece around is poison and where exactly it is, is certainly not a problem for getting started and playing up to G on top of the staff. My experience is that a proper daily routine promotes evolution - not revolution. Embouchure is fine motor activity, not building a six pack. Low impact repetitions! Lipslurs, longtones!

I am sure that multiphonics can be generated with a combination of lips and humming/singing or only with a weak embouchure. The mouthpiece in the "wrong place" would not be the cause of the double buzz, rather simple weak chops from lack of constructive practice.

@Anthony-Lenzo

1. Oil floats on water. That makes oiling after playing useless because the bore is covered with condensation. The only oiling that reduces wear is the oiling that prevents two pieces of metal from touching one another.
2. petroleum based oils evaporate mostly within 24 hours making a daily oiling sensible
3. synthetic oils do not evaporate like petroleum based ones, so we really do not need to oil daily. That being said: if we do not brush our teeth really well before playing, the aerosols in our breath will collect and turn the oil to sludge over time. Just adding oil on top of that just makes the sludge thinner.

For valves, I swab the casing every other day and wipe down the valves then when everything is bone dry, reoil. The oil is attached to all moving surfaces and protection is best.

Depending on the make, age and provenance of the horn, a valve job can transform the instrument to even better than new.

@barliman2001 That is why we have alternate fingerings...

@USAFBugler Yes, some older trumpets out of the US were built around A=440 and the current A=442 or 443 just makes life hard to impossible. The solution is to cut the instrument down - preferably at the stem of the bell. Then it could end up better than ever (because you can use it). What usually does not work is shortening it at the tuning slide or mouthpiece.

I have a Selmer Radial 2° D/Eb built in the early 1970s and after taking a bit off of the bell stem to raise the tuning pitch, it is much, much better than before.

@Trumpetb, I report my first hand experience. I did not say that the importer dictated price. I said that the manufacturers have a catalog of options and that the importer can put instruments together from junk to great. The assumption that there must be a moral obligation in commerce is simply naive on your part. That is why there are laws to protect the end customer.

What I do not like is that you derail this thread (as usual with far too many words) which is about somebody selling an instrument because of the perceived category being “student quality”.

@Trumpetb in my view it is a mistake to bring "junk" into this discussion. First of all, who has EVER tried to justify the purchase of those trumpet shaped objects here at Trumpetboards? It simply is not going to happen.

The second issue is that it is mistaken to call them "chinese" or "indian" instruments. Those countries have their manufacturing processes under control and the IMPORTER decides what the instrument should be. During a concert tour to China, I in fact visited a manufacturer. I saw trumpets being built on one assembly line and automobile doors on the next line, lamps on another. I spoke with their sales department and they explained that their "cheapest" instrument costs $50 each if you buy a container full. That instrument would not meet any standard that someone posting here would accept BUT you can also spend $51 and get a nickel ring soldered somewhere, $55 and get a "gold brass" bell. Decent valves (by my standard) are available on instruments costing >$75 and so it goes up to a truly professional standard for between $600 and $700. So, the guilty scum is not the manufacturer, rather the importer and sales organisation without respect for their customers. What gets built is 100% what the customer orders. There is nothing on the planet that can not be made cheaper by changing the demands.

The third issue is price as a parameter for quality. This is not true in ANY industry. A good student instrument costs less than a professional one because the requirements for the instrument can be more or less automated to keep the price down and because the manufacturers can sell more of them. Nuance requires more individual attention in the USA, Europe, Japan and China. That drives the price of a pro trumpet up.

@Anthony-Lenzo Without wanting to turn the discussion negative, just because one likes an instrument does not mean that it is really good or bad. It ONLY means that with the perceptual tools that we currently have available, we can form an opinion (that is only valid for ourselves).

The difference between a "student" and "professional" trumpet has nothing to do with the "quality" of the instrument, rather the intended customer. Student instruments are generally more forgiving when not properly maintained. Student instruments do not "need" superior breath support for relatively good intonation. The blow is better suited to the development of embouchure and useable lung capacity. Professional instruments in the hands of many students generally offer more disadvantages and seldom a better playing experience. This is because nuance is neither heard nor felt in "early" stages of playing.

We get into this "classification" discussion when less experienced members feel a need to "justify" their purchases. What I get from the postings has more to do with understanding their perceptual state and confirmation that a serious exchange of "nuance" is not yet possible.

My stand is to get an instrument that suits the situation and not to buy something that our playing is not qualified for. I generally start my students with something like a Yamaha 3xxx student series instruments. That promotes good habits, prevents excuses and if the student stays motivated, after 3 or 4 years gives them the substantial foundation to pick something that is suitable for the NEXT playing situations.

We can judge instruments by labels, we just need them from ears and people that we can trust - not self proclaimed internet armchair experts.

To address the original post, prices are always relative - even for new horns. In the case of a Martin Committee we have several things contributing to the current high price:

limited quantity of playable instruments
high demand based on the supposed magical properties.

Now, magic IS something that CAN happen between a player and his instrument but that is the catch. The player AND the horn need complementary magic to make this investment worthwhile.

I am convinced that any number of manufacturers could recreate the Committee for a lot less money. There is no magic in the brass or skills required to make one. The issue is, that too few people would buy it because they mostly want the myth first and the story behind having one is created later.

@Anthony-Lenzo I want to be very clear that I am not assuming that your technician made a mistake or was not good! Sometimes there is dirt and damage that the technician can only compensate for. I make a huge difference between repair or restore. Restoration is usually far more costly in terms of time and effort.

Generally, only really serious dents (tube almost mashed together) will affect the intonation.
That being said, a technician that knows enough to tell you if removing the dent can cause a tear or hole, should be able to judge if it is intonation critical. If after a repair, a patch was applied, this will also not have any serious effect on intonation - especially if we are not talking about a professional player and her/his favorite horn!

One recommendation that I would offer to Anthony: please post pictures when you ask questions like this. Maybe we could offer advice BEFORE you make an uninformed decision. Some of us have been doing this for a VERY LONG TIME!

I have never had a dent tear because my tech annealed the dents before doing anything. Annealing is a process to soften the grain structure of metal to reduce stress. It is used when originally forming the tuning slide and slide bows as well as when hammering the bell.

@administrator your suspicion is correct. A real slide trombone. The slide is of no big concern. Habits are built through repetitions and I already have enough alto clef material to get started. I have already committed to a concert in April, so I know what is coming.