@Dr-GO Yes, I do browse the site from time to time. I do happen to be busy with many things (performances and preparing for a master class) that keep me away from casual computing.

As far as my posting at TrumpetMaster, that was an outlet for many concepts that I use when teaching and in my „industry“ job.

As far as grudges go, I am sorry that hindsight has not changed some peoples view of the world. Those that were banned had a „long series“ of behavior that was not „community“. In general, the admins posted in a protected area about those people and we were able to get other opinions before taking any action. Who actually banned who was not always clear as there was no flag visible to admins.

Wilmer died, may he rest in piece. All of the real professionals at TrumpetMaster had a certain degree of frustration with certain members who seemed to think that the supposed anonimity of the web gave them license to spew stupidity. I am convinced that in a real 1 on 1 lesson, the tone would have been completely different - far more respectful. I also often considered leaving TrumpetMaster but in the end, the real problem children (those only on transmit (TX) but not receive (RX)) were so few and the quantity of „respectful“ members gave me joy.

The essence of what I posted was just to take a step back, view the issue in its entirety and address the root cause instead of offering a patch for a symptom. This strategy works everywhere except in marriage (that being said, I have been with the same wife - my first - since 1978).

I still am not ready to make a commitment like I made to myself at TrumpetMaster. I am disappointed in the owner of TrumpetMaster for no warning or communication about closure. I certainly hope that the problem was not due to death or health issues.

Keep practicing!

Robin

It is important to recognize context when talking about "quality". A students instrument can have a very high quality, but the focus is on different things!
A beginner handles their instrument more by "chance" than by "experience". This means that a student instrument must be very durable to insure good mechanical properties even when not regularly maintained. The next mark of a high quality student instrument is how easily it "speaks". It needs to resonate easily with good tone. The player has to hear themselves easily. The valves will not have as tight of a tolerance to prevent them from hanging when not regularly brushing teeth before playing!

I will leave out "intermediate" instruments as I personally really see no musical sense to them. We can move from a Yamaha 2xxx or 3xxx directly to the 8xxx series for instance.

Professional instruments are not "soldered or designed better" than the student instruments. The improvements are in the time it takes to manipulate the materials for a playing response more closely connected to the players intentions. Instead of "durability", materials are used that allow a greater choice of playing colors, perhaps more ease of playing extremely soft and loud. The ability for "articulation" to be heard. A more controllable transition from clear to brilliant in a crescendo. In many cases, professional instruments have considerably more manual labor in their construction and that costs money.

I certainly agree that buying a beginner a pro horn normally does no one a favor. we start on a bicycle with training wheels, not carbon fiber rims. As our use case matures, we have opportunities to offer more colorful playing. A professional instrument can help us tap those talents by giving our ears/brain less gaps to fill in. When our vocabulary and quality of musical speech warrant it, the pro horn lets us shine through more.

I remember the Buzz/Phooey discussion at TrumpetMaster. It went nowhere fast.

The lips open and close like a valve at a rate related to the length of the trumpet. Each fingering has multiple notes based on the wavelength being played. The pedal note is one wavelength in the instrument. Low C is 2 wavelengths, G is 3 wavelengths, third space C is 4 wavelengths. This continues until our lips are no longer able to open and close - due to pressure, tension or lack of being supple.

I consider the buzz or alternate start of lip vibration to be an insignificant semantic argument with no redeeming value. We are talking about the same thing: ignition of the lips, initialization of the vibrating mode. Regardless if one calls it Phooey or a buzz, fact is, we blow air through the lips with a certain amount of lip tension and they resonate. This blow can be a relaxed exhale to a forceful expulsion of air. Articulation comes later when we modify the start to "speak". To speak a "phoo or foo" we would need our lower teeth on the upper lip prior to ignition. That certainly does not line up with most embouchures - especially considering that most have an overbite (upper teeth in front of lower teeth). Perhaps for players with an underbite (upper teeth behind the lower teeth) phoo would be what at least they "think" that they are doing. Considering that ignition needs freely vibrating lips, beyond the exhale, it really does not matter.

Some players have trouble with a free buzz. That is in most cases insignificant as we always play trumpet through a mouthpiece. Some players have trouble with a buzz through a mouthpiece. This is also in many cases insignificant as we rely on the resonances of the horn to modulate and stabilize pitch. Some like buzzing free, on the mouthpiece or with some resonance enhancing scheme (leadpipe or P.E.T.E). Good for them. It never helped my playing and I never taught it. I certainly would not criticize another teacher with good experience in buzzing however-as long as the player is getting a well balanced routine every day.

I found the arguments at TrumpetMaster regarding this to be little more than annoying as the real issues of getting the sound started are masked in senseless arguing.

If we can't get our semantics to line up, then beating a dead horse is not productive. Let us just talk about ignition instead.

As far as Yamahas claim to deeper cups being more mellow, science backs this up. The more cup volume, the more it acts like a low pass acoustical filter - reducing upper harmonics (compared to a cup with less volume). Less harmonics is a "darker/more mellow" sound.

The throat/backbore indeed also has great effect on sound and intonation as well as efficiency. That has nothing to do with Yamahas claims at the mentioned website.

We should never forget that the target audience determines the semantics. The casual reader really could care less and at least gets some valid pre-chewed recommendations. As they advance in perception and capability, they go elsewhere for mor detailed info.

@Kehaulani said in RIP Trumpet "Master":

If I'm not mistaking, the Circle of Breath is not rowuk's but is just another way of describing time honored techniques. No disrespect to rowuk, who's posts I always enjoyed and am grateful for lot of good advice, but what is unique about it to give it a distinct name and attribute the techniques to any one man. What did I miss?

I will assume that this statement was made because I only posted Circle of Breath at the now dead Trumpetmaster.

This is true. The concepts in the „Circle of Breath“ are age old, tried and true. They are a complete routine that I have been using since the 1970s. I do not know of anyone else that coined the phrase „Circle of Breath“ in this context so I will take credit for the name. Aligning the body first(Yoga, Feldenkrais, Alexander Technique), deep relaxed breath, playing longtones and slurs without an attack (Irons and others) are certainly not unique. I was always surprised that there are many (even accomplished) players that were never introduced to these basic concepts. This combination has been effective with every player that I have worked with. Just to outline the process:

1. Prepared body - straight/aligned to allow for a deep relaxed breath
2. exhale into long tones. We teach our lips to ignite on a wisp of air. The tongue tip is later used only to shape the articulation - not enable ignition of the lips
3. exhale into lipslurs

The circle is divided into two sections. At the bottom (6 o‘clock) we start our inhale. At 12 o‘clock we switch to exhale with all of the smoothness that a circle has. We exhale to 6 o‘clock and then the smooth transition to inhale starts. The time to inhale is not fixed.

We breathe through the nose as long as there is time enough. The air is moistened and adjusted in temperature.
If we do NOT have time, we breathe through the mouth.

Both methods of inhale must be practiced as well as their transition to exhale and back.

I use the Irons lip flexibilities book for the lipslur part.

Please feel free to move this post anywhere that would better serve the community.

Here is a method of creating a cheap but effective practice mute. I saw this mute at the international Natural Trumpet Workshop near Basel 2 weeks ago, so I am just sharing/documenting the idea.

In Germany, we have 2 "single portion" types of Coke bottles. .33 liters or for the more thirsty, .5 liters.

1. The first step is to get rid of the Coke (in my case Coke Zero)! Then wash out the bottle and let dry.
   
2. Now cut the top off as in the picture. Leave a little of the straight sides to provide a flat gluing surface:
   
3. Cut the bottom off as shown and discard the middle part:
   
4. Test the top and bottom parts for fit:
   
5. Glue both parts together with your favorite glue and use tape to secure during the drying process(make sure that the glue is suitable for PET):
   
6. Cut off the rim on the neck:
   
   
7. For the gasket between the mute and bell I used a bicycle grip
   
   
8. Drill a hole in the top a bit smaller than a drinking straw
   
9. for the 0.33 liter mute( middle) cut a straw to 3cm and glue it into the hole. For the 0.5 liter mute (right), a 2cm length works well
   

Longer straw lengths do not reduce volume as much but are more free blowing. Too short lengths reduce volume but are very stuffy/fuzzy

Even although I own some trumpets that qualify in this thread, I think that the concept is bogus. Players buy custom horns because they CAN, not because they musically "have to".

There is a concept that the horn finds the player that I think is very true - but how much opportunity do we get to play those custom horns long enough before we pay? Being honest - essentially never. Has anyone checked out how many used custom horns are available - more than one would expect considering how special they are supposed to be.

Another misconception is the custom horn built for the player. Well, the truth is that all of those custom builders are giving you what they believe. You may get a choice of bell, bore or weight, but what trumpeter really understands how a trumpet works AND how they work? What builder takes the time to really get to know the intimate side of a clients playing. Who has the ability to finesse the strengths of a player in the match of instrument. I can only think of one manufacturer that does and it only works like that on the second, third or fourth instrument.

So, my take is:

1. start safe with a "standard" Bach, Schilke, Yamaha if you are really serious. Then as time goes on and dues are paid, play everything that you can get your hands on. Visit players that have "interesting horns" and take your time.
2. if you get a second horn, play it exclusively for a while to get intimate with it
3. NEVER EVER believe that hardware will solve a software problem.

@barliman2001 said in Did something change?:

@ROWUK I agree with you that TB has not yet reached the kind of wealth of information that TM had... but then, many old TM members did not switch to TB when TM suddenly went dead.

I do not think that the problem is number of members. What bothers me is who posts why. I do not share the sense of humor of others and having an opinion just because we can is not always a good reason to torpedo threads. I am convinced that many think that they are funny and do not even realize the damage that they do. Sometimes just keeping a thread serious would be a great course of action. The NY Phil controversy is a good example. What torpedoed it had nothing to do with the charge or the aftermath. The second thread was simply embarassing.

Here are a couple of my wood projects:
Cherry

Oak

Baltic Birch Plywood (the horns are fibreglass)

@mike-ansberry This is a HUGE topic. I built my own, horn loudspeakers and low powered tube amplification.

In my world there is no "best" or even "beginners" mouthpiece. The Bach 7C is popular because it is not too big, not too little, it has a slightly sharper inner rim which in my opinion works well with chops that simply don't get enough practice. The critical part for beginners is NOT buying a bigger or smaller mouthpiece, rather getting them lessons with someone who cares enough to lead them to superior body and breath use. The faster that they let their playing ride on that flow of air, the faster they will have little dependency on mouthpiece to fill the job (sound great, play in tune, blend in school band).

Anything smaller than a 7C or bigger than a 3C, I consider to be a specialty mouthpiece and one should know themselves why they chose them. I only played for a year on a 7C. Then it was clear that I was on track for classical playing. I was playing cornet at the time and switched to a 1C with only a week or two of acclimation. That is only proof that my trumpet teacher did his job (and that I practiced a little more than required)!

There is such a thing. I have one (not for sale) made in the 1870s. Occasionally they pop up. A friend of mine has a similar Heckel F. They are NOT the alto instruments however. They have the same bore and bell as a soprano Bb trumpet.!
I think that Dotzauer still builds them.
IMG_1298.JPG

I would insist that the major difference between many "older" cornets and trumpets is the mouthpiece and attitude of the player. If someone wants a killer 50s Martin Committee for cheap, buy the cornet and get a good tech to change the mouthpiece receiver to trumpet.
All reasonable colleagues will have no issue!

3 valve piccs can work IF we have an half tone extension for the third valve (1+2+3 should give us the low concert D with the A tuning). Then all of the D major baroque stuff works. I have a 3 valve rotary pic and it is my go to instrument for baroque literature in D or Eb when I play modern horns.

@trumpetb Lengthy posts can be very useful when covering material that can not be reduced. I often complain about a tendency to simplify complex issues because the root cause is to manipulate instead of achieve better common understanding. In addition incorrect use of "science" as a supposed solution often leads to "lengthy" posting with no real resolution.

Your last post actually covers many issues (and I don't know why):

1. disposition to change or modify
2. need for a replacement spring
3. what to do when replacements are not available
4. threads that wander
5. responsibility of members

In my view, communities develop based on whatever level of communication that the community members gravitate to. The interest to post is based on the individual expectations. If the general tone (of the community) is lengthy, those interested in the topic give up after a while. If the general expectation is no longer than necessary, a different mix of posting occurs.

In my view, the issue of springs is very interesting with great need for mythbusting. As disposition and actual understanding the material leads to different courses of action, there is a lot to talk about. That has nothing to do with certain members tendency to post a lot of words.

Some really long posts for a simple original question about where to get stiffer springs. Even in Germany, Bach only seems to offer 2 versions: light and standard. Third parties have other parts that can not be compared by the on line description.

https://www.austincustombrass.biz/high-speed-valve-springs-for-trumpet/
https://mouthpieceexpress.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=19850&osCsid=fnopp4r1ndjgh4loulpf415524
https://thompsonmusic.com/product/high-speed-valve-springs/

@trumpetb I am in my late 60s and have been playing for over 50 years.
My Bach C229 was purchased in 1974 and still has the original springs
My Monette Raja C was built in 1989/1990 and still has the original springs
My Selmer Radial 2° Model 75 was built in 1974 and still has the original springs
My Selmer Radial 2° D trumpet was built in 1978 and still has the original springs
My Heckel rotary Bb was built in 1938 and still has the original springs
My Getzen 4 valve flugelhorn was built in the 1970s and still has the original springs

The rest of my horns are similar. They ALL get played a lot but do not need stretching or replacement. That being said, my horns do go to a technician every couple of years for a checkup and chemical clean (no ultrasound bath). My suspicion is that the spring gets blamed for valve dirt, distortion and damage because stretching is a supposed "cheaper fix".

I will not deny that there are causes to replace springs, but I see little to no reason to ever stretch - unless the valve has exceptionally long throw (like old Benges). Stretching to fine tune tension simply has no benefit.

The short throw of typical trumpet valves does not cause excessive wear on spring tension. If the valves are regularly cleaned and oiled, the spring has a very easy job and as I noted above, lasts for decades with no hit in performance.

As I previously posted, stretching the spring does unpredictable things to K - the tension. No general statement can be made except that the stretching was not worth it.

I guess that we will get no agreement, so let us agree to disagree. Every stretched spring experiment that I know about (with my 55+ years of playing there were a few), have not improved anything. Sticky valves remained sticky, the valves were never faster and more often than not, the scraping noise from bent springs. Pages of irrelevant math do not change the basic premise, so why argue? I have all of the stuff to measure and document the changes (I train our employees and customers to operate and service thermal cutting machines where we use springs in various functions), but have no interest as I have never had a positive experience related to the trumpet or our machines.
I would further advance that springs do not increase playing speed as our fine motor activity is what it is and the quality of the valve lubrication is the deciding factor and very much subject to environmental factors (temperature, aerosols, stroke angle when depressing the valve).
In my world, stiffer springs are for calming the brain of certain players, not increasing performance.
I am always amazed at how smooth and light the action of my valves are after a „maintenance“ by technicians that I trust. I am anally retentive about cleanliness next to godliness when applied to trumpet valves, but still, they apply magic, not springs. They also are very adament about not stretching.

@trumpetb I will insist that "stretching" the spring will not improve performance. We may be able to squeeze a bit more life out of it, but if our stretch is NOT ABSOLUTELY STRAIGHT, the spring is damaged and will actually have worse performance.
Stretching a spring for more tension also assumes that the stretched wire will hold the stretch, that would have to be proven on a case by case basis.

I would insist that Hookes law does not apply here.

F = kx

“F” being the amount of push or pull is on the spring

“k” being a constant, indicating the stiffness of the spring

“x” being the distance the spring was pushed or pulled

Our distance that we stretched is a deformation of the wire and the "new" base for testing. Stretching the spring means that we exceed its elasticity, thus destroying all of the original parameters. What K is left after deformation depends on the spring material and tension. Now, if we retemper after stretch, we have a new animal. I have never read about retempering valve springs.

@kehaulani said in Buying a new home audio system:

I'm a simple guy, too. Sound first, technology . . meh. Give me a set of KLH speakers and an Onkyo amp and I'm a happy guy.

I do agree with one thing, though. Check the equipment's input jacks. They are different on various equipment and don't take for granted that the ones you need are there.

KLH Model 9s were about the best that money could buy once upon a time, and even today they are still very, very close! I am not sure that there is an Onkyo amplifier suitable however...

@trumpetb said in Tough Decision to make:

That is so true ROWUK we are often captivated by a single horn and attribute characteristics to it that maintain a reverence for it that is not borne out by the real facts.

What I mean by this is, the sound of a horn is a correlation between the embouchure the players characteristic sound, the mouthpiece used and the instrument itself.

I cannot say how many times that the sound of a horn has been utterly transformed by a mouthpiece change or to a lesser extent an embouchure change or to an even lesser extent a change in my sound concept while playing.

It is often asked which horn will make this sound or that sound or it is asked what horn dizzy or louis or chet or miles played as if we might sound like dizzy on dizzys horn.

No

We can however mould ourselves if given the right guidance and the right mouthpiece to go some way towards achieving the sound that we crave. Or even better our own sound.

We can play mariachi, symphonic, lead, smooth, the instruments are largely limitless if we know what we are doing and if we can match the equipment to ourselves and mould ourselves to the equipment.

chet dispensed with his flugel saying he has no need of it he can sound like a flugel on his trumpet if he chooses to. I am convinced he could easily do that.

But then some horns have that extra something that cannot be emulated by changing mouthpiece or changing the approach.

The best mouthpiece cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear even if it can get very close to it.

Go to horns, are of that type, we simply can do more of what we want and more convincingly and naturally with our go to horn.

I have a modern yamaha a very capable horn but there is something missing that I get with my goto that I cannot get with this yamaha or any other horn and that makes my goto the most satisfying instrument that I have and I play better on my go to than any other horn because of it.

It has taken me decades to find and now it is with me and I am forever in the debt of all who helped me find it and prepared me so that I could recognise it when I found it.

The dream becomes reality only when we have put enough work in and understand how to use it to its full potential.

I very much disagree with the idea of a mouthpiece transforming an instrument. We are creatures of habit and building new ones takes a long time - that is called "acclimation" and is the reason why my students get extended playing time with my collection of specialty mouthpieces - we need months to acclimate and then to discover that the first impressions were not the lasting ones is a big deal.