@Dr-GO Yes, I do browse the site from time to time. I do happen to be busy with many things (performances and preparing for a master class) that keep me away from casual computing.

As far as my posting at TrumpetMaster, that was an outlet for many concepts that I use when teaching and in my „industry“ job.

As far as grudges go, I am sorry that hindsight has not changed some peoples view of the world. Those that were banned had a „long series“ of behavior that was not „community“. In general, the admins posted in a protected area about those people and we were able to get other opinions before taking any action. Who actually banned who was not always clear as there was no flag visible to admins.

Wilmer died, may he rest in piece. All of the real professionals at TrumpetMaster had a certain degree of frustration with certain members who seemed to think that the supposed anonimity of the web gave them license to spew stupidity. I am convinced that in a real 1 on 1 lesson, the tone would have been completely different - far more respectful. I also often considered leaving TrumpetMaster but in the end, the real problem children (those only on transmit (TX) but not receive (RX)) were so few and the quantity of „respectful“ members gave me joy.

The essence of what I posted was just to take a step back, view the issue in its entirety and address the root cause instead of offering a patch for a symptom. This strategy works everywhere except in marriage (that being said, I have been with the same wife - my first - since 1978).

I still am not ready to make a commitment like I made to myself at TrumpetMaster. I am disappointed in the owner of TrumpetMaster for no warning or communication about closure. I certainly hope that the problem was not due to death or health issues.

Keep practicing!

Robin

It is important to recognize context when talking about "quality". A students instrument can have a very high quality, but the focus is on different things!
A beginner handles their instrument more by "chance" than by "experience". This means that a student instrument must be very durable to insure good mechanical properties even when not regularly maintained. The next mark of a high quality student instrument is how easily it "speaks". It needs to resonate easily with good tone. The player has to hear themselves easily. The valves will not have as tight of a tolerance to prevent them from hanging when not regularly brushing teeth before playing!

I will leave out "intermediate" instruments as I personally really see no musical sense to them. We can move from a Yamaha 2xxx or 3xxx directly to the 8xxx series for instance.

Professional instruments are not "soldered or designed better" than the student instruments. The improvements are in the time it takes to manipulate the materials for a playing response more closely connected to the players intentions. Instead of "durability", materials are used that allow a greater choice of playing colors, perhaps more ease of playing extremely soft and loud. The ability for "articulation" to be heard. A more controllable transition from clear to brilliant in a crescendo. In many cases, professional instruments have considerably more manual labor in their construction and that costs money.

I certainly agree that buying a beginner a pro horn normally does no one a favor. we start on a bicycle with training wheels, not carbon fiber rims. As our use case matures, we have opportunities to offer more colorful playing. A professional instrument can help us tap those talents by giving our ears/brain less gaps to fill in. When our vocabulary and quality of musical speech warrant it, the pro horn lets us shine through more.

I remember the Buzz/Phooey discussion at TrumpetMaster. It went nowhere fast.

The lips open and close like a valve at a rate related to the length of the trumpet. Each fingering has multiple notes based on the wavelength being played. The pedal note is one wavelength in the instrument. Low C is 2 wavelengths, G is 3 wavelengths, third space C is 4 wavelengths. This continues until our lips are no longer able to open and close - due to pressure, tension or lack of being supple.

I consider the buzz or alternate start of lip vibration to be an insignificant semantic argument with no redeeming value. We are talking about the same thing: ignition of the lips, initialization of the vibrating mode. Regardless if one calls it Phooey or a buzz, fact is, we blow air through the lips with a certain amount of lip tension and they resonate. This blow can be a relaxed exhale to a forceful expulsion of air. Articulation comes later when we modify the start to "speak". To speak a "phoo or foo" we would need our lower teeth on the upper lip prior to ignition. That certainly does not line up with most embouchures - especially considering that most have an overbite (upper teeth in front of lower teeth). Perhaps for players with an underbite (upper teeth behind the lower teeth) phoo would be what at least they "think" that they are doing. Considering that ignition needs freely vibrating lips, beyond the exhale, it really does not matter.

Some players have trouble with a free buzz. That is in most cases insignificant as we always play trumpet through a mouthpiece. Some players have trouble with a buzz through a mouthpiece. This is also in many cases insignificant as we rely on the resonances of the horn to modulate and stabilize pitch. Some like buzzing free, on the mouthpiece or with some resonance enhancing scheme (leadpipe or P.E.T.E). Good for them. It never helped my playing and I never taught it. I certainly would not criticize another teacher with good experience in buzzing however-as long as the player is getting a well balanced routine every day.

I found the arguments at TrumpetMaster regarding this to be little more than annoying as the real issues of getting the sound started are masked in senseless arguing.

If we can't get our semantics to line up, then beating a dead horse is not productive. Let us just talk about ignition instead.

As far as Yamahas claim to deeper cups being more mellow, science backs this up. The more cup volume, the more it acts like a low pass acoustical filter - reducing upper harmonics (compared to a cup with less volume). Less harmonics is a "darker/more mellow" sound.

The throat/backbore indeed also has great effect on sound and intonation as well as efficiency. That has nothing to do with Yamahas claims at the mentioned website.

We should never forget that the target audience determines the semantics. The casual reader really could care less and at least gets some valid pre-chewed recommendations. As they advance in perception and capability, they go elsewhere for mor detailed info.

@Kehaulani said in RIP Trumpet "Master":

If I'm not mistaking, the Circle of Breath is not rowuk's but is just another way of describing time honored techniques. No disrespect to rowuk, who's posts I always enjoyed and am grateful for lot of good advice, but what is unique about it to give it a distinct name and attribute the techniques to any one man. What did I miss?

I will assume that this statement was made because I only posted Circle of Breath at the now dead Trumpetmaster.

This is true. The concepts in the „Circle of Breath“ are age old, tried and true. They are a complete routine that I have been using since the 1970s. I do not know of anyone else that coined the phrase „Circle of Breath“ in this context so I will take credit for the name. Aligning the body first(Yoga, Feldenkrais, Alexander Technique), deep relaxed breath, playing longtones and slurs without an attack (Irons and others) are certainly not unique. I was always surprised that there are many (even accomplished) players that were never introduced to these basic concepts. This combination has been effective with every player that I have worked with. Just to outline the process:

1. Prepared body - straight/aligned to allow for a deep relaxed breath
2. exhale into long tones. We teach our lips to ignite on a wisp of air. The tongue tip is later used only to shape the articulation - not enable ignition of the lips
3. exhale into lipslurs

The circle is divided into two sections. At the bottom (6 o‘clock) we start our inhale. At 12 o‘clock we switch to exhale with all of the smoothness that a circle has. We exhale to 6 o‘clock and then the smooth transition to inhale starts. The time to inhale is not fixed.

We breathe through the nose as long as there is time enough. The air is moistened and adjusted in temperature.
If we do NOT have time, we breathe through the mouth.

Both methods of inhale must be practiced as well as their transition to exhale and back.

I use the Irons lip flexibilities book for the lipslur part.

Please feel free to move this post anywhere that would better serve the community.

Here is a method of creating a cheap but effective practice mute. I saw this mute at the international Natural Trumpet Workshop near Basel 2 weeks ago, so I am just sharing/documenting the idea.

In Germany, we have 2 "single portion" types of Coke bottles. .33 liters or for the more thirsty, .5 liters.

1. The first step is to get rid of the Coke (in my case Coke Zero)! Then wash out the bottle and let dry.
   
2. Now cut the top off as in the picture. Leave a little of the straight sides to provide a flat gluing surface:
   
3. Cut the bottom off as shown and discard the middle part:
   
4. Test the top and bottom parts for fit:
   
5. Glue both parts together with your favorite glue and use tape to secure during the drying process(make sure that the glue is suitable for PET):
   
6. Cut off the rim on the neck:
   
   
7. For the gasket between the mute and bell I used a bicycle grip
   
   
8. Drill a hole in the top a bit smaller than a drinking straw
   
9. for the 0.33 liter mute( middle) cut a straw to 3cm and glue it into the hole. For the 0.5 liter mute (right), a 2cm length works well
   

Longer straw lengths do not reduce volume as much but are more free blowing. Too short lengths reduce volume but are very stuffy/fuzzy

Even although I own some trumpets that qualify in this thread, I think that the concept is bogus. Players buy custom horns because they CAN, not because they musically "have to".

There is a concept that the horn finds the player that I think is very true - but how much opportunity do we get to play those custom horns long enough before we pay? Being honest - essentially never. Has anyone checked out how many used custom horns are available - more than one would expect considering how special they are supposed to be.

Another misconception is the custom horn built for the player. Well, the truth is that all of those custom builders are giving you what they believe. You may get a choice of bell, bore or weight, but what trumpeter really understands how a trumpet works AND how they work? What builder takes the time to really get to know the intimate side of a clients playing. Who has the ability to finesse the strengths of a player in the match of instrument. I can only think of one manufacturer that does and it only works like that on the second, third or fourth instrument.

So, my take is:

1. start safe with a "standard" Bach, Schilke, Yamaha if you are really serious. Then as time goes on and dues are paid, play everything that you can get your hands on. Visit players that have "interesting horns" and take your time.
2. if you get a second horn, play it exclusively for a while to get intimate with it
3. NEVER EVER believe that hardware will solve a software problem.

@barliman2001 said in Did something change?:

@ROWUK I agree with you that TB has not yet reached the kind of wealth of information that TM had... but then, many old TM members did not switch to TB when TM suddenly went dead.

I do not think that the problem is number of members. What bothers me is who posts why. I do not share the sense of humor of others and having an opinion just because we can is not always a good reason to torpedo threads. I am convinced that many think that they are funny and do not even realize the damage that they do. Sometimes just keeping a thread serious would be a great course of action. The NY Phil controversy is a good example. What torpedoed it had nothing to do with the charge or the aftermath. The second thread was simply embarassing.

Here are a couple of my wood projects:
Cherry

Oak

Baltic Birch Plywood (the horns are fibreglass)

@mike-ansberry This is a HUGE topic. I built my own, horn loudspeakers and low powered tube amplification.

In my world there is no "best" or even "beginners" mouthpiece. The Bach 7C is popular because it is not too big, not too little, it has a slightly sharper inner rim which in my opinion works well with chops that simply don't get enough practice. The critical part for beginners is NOT buying a bigger or smaller mouthpiece, rather getting them lessons with someone who cares enough to lead them to superior body and breath use. The faster that they let their playing ride on that flow of air, the faster they will have little dependency on mouthpiece to fill the job (sound great, play in tune, blend in school band).

Anything smaller than a 7C or bigger than a 3C, I consider to be a specialty mouthpiece and one should know themselves why they chose them. I only played for a year on a 7C. Then it was clear that I was on track for classical playing. I was playing cornet at the time and switched to a 1C with only a week or two of acclimation. That is only proof that my trumpet teacher did his job (and that I practiced a little more than required)!

@mike-ansberry-0 Pitchfinder

Here is one source for $2.99:
https://albedomusic.musicaneo.com/sheetmusic/sm-248859_symphony_no_4_movement_i_-_trumpet_in_c_1_transposed_part_op_98.html

here from the New York Symphony digital archive for free (but not complete): https://archives.nyphil.org/index.php/artifact/a5a845a1-b565-47e6-b7c7-78c7a2223e1d-0.1/fullview#page/1/mode/2up

@trumpetb sounds like wishful thinking to me - and every tech that I know. Even with advanced maintenance, the tech ALWAYS finds more.
For many, good enough is good enough. For many, well they post more than they practice. Keep on flushing!

@kehaulani-0 Yes, the placebo effect - the difference between a killer and average chorus. Only something in our head was different between the two performances. When we are at the top of our game, there are a lot of influences. Practice is not the only parameter.

Trumpetb
When we are practicing and performing at a high level, changing the firmness in which we insert the mouthpiece causes "big" differences. I let my students change mine and tell me what sounds different, then I do it to them. We do not know when we are experimenting what the other person did. So, repeatedly in the same lesson we try this out, have similar experiences - and that over time. Sounds like a pretty sure thing to me.

I certainly have no interest in beating this issue up, but those in denial about valve casings are missing the point. When we send a trumpet in for a valve job, what is done? The casing is honed to make each one round again THEN the valve is plated oversized and lapped in. This means that the significant wear was on the casing - not the valve.
For those of us fortunate to play a lot for many years, we realise that even with proper care, valves (even stainless steel)were not necessarily built “for a lifetime of use”. Even although we have no mechanical trouble, the playing qualities deteriorate as the valves become more “leaky”.
I maintain (and do not need 1000 words to defend my stance): the casing, leadpipe and tubes need as much attention as the valve - every clean. The inside of a trumpet is a living organism, regardless if we brush our teeth regularly or not. The aerosols in our breath collect and wander down the instrument. This is what turns the valve oil into sludge that collects eventually on the valve and casing surface. That compromised lubrication allows metal to metal contact (wear) at the high spots and gunk at the low spots. We DO need a professional service at regular intervals IF we are truly interested in the long term playability of our instrument.
The idea of a low power personal ultrasonic device to clean the valves is good and certainly more thorough than just “wiping the valves down”. That does not remove the need for getting the rest of the problem solved however. Not “noticing” something - even over years is not evidence that a strategy is good. It is more a sign of “tolerance” of ever worsening “tolerances”.

I am suspicious, because this cleaning only covers half of the valve “system”. The casings need at least an equal amount of TLC. The Dirt/Damage/Distortion that Ivan mentions applies to the whole instrument. Without a deep clean on the valve casings (and the rest of the horn), we have NOT improved the overall situation. Yes, the valves themselves are cleaner with ultrasound.
These small, cheap ultrasound devices are safe for metals - even for extended periods. I have had issues with plastics and eyeglasses.
There is also a necessity to make sure that the valve and casing are bone dry before oiling after cleaning. Oil floats on water and this prevents a proper bond between oil and the metal surfaces

I think that there are multiple benefits.
Inserting a mouthpiece in a specific way increases the chances that similar insertion pressure will be used. I experimented with this quite a bit. The trumpet plays much differently if inserted lightly or firmly (and everywhere in between).
Our perception of things change when we develop a ritual. We “feel good” about having developed that process. It becomes part of our reality - and safety net. I do not consider this to be a myth. We know how much of our playing is inspiration and how much is perspiration. We all enjoy reaching a point where the musical portion becomes greater than the mechanical.
Modern mouthpieces do not have centricity issues, the mass is also uniform, the finish consistent. Even with many years of use, this does not necessarily change. That being said, minor damage to the shank or dirt in the receiver can cause large changes in playability! I have often wondered why more players do not have better protection with a “better designed” mouthpiece case and tools to keep the shank and receiver clean, round and true.

With posts like this, I wonder about the REAL REASON behind asking the question. No doubt, headaches can be caused by MANY things, but considering that essentially ALL MUSIC, depending on perspective is out of tune (mean tuning, well tempered, just tuning, various historic tuning schemes etc.), I wonder if the problem is not self generated, if ones tolerance (having to teach a big group) simply is the problem.

I don't think that the instrument being played nor the quantity is critical. I think that stress is a function of attitude and has deeper roots.

As far as instruments not holding tune, that is certainly something that can be fixed - one instrument at a time.

If we do not have what it takes to teach big classes, then don't. I believe that teachers are born, not "taught".

Chemicals are certainly a workaround and not a solution.

I bet that there is much more to the story. My hunch is that to stay employed, taking the large group was delegated regardless of the teachers opinion or excuses why not.

I am waiting for enough AI that we can take this TERRIBLE recording quality and turn it into hifi. The first two examples are so compressed and distorted that I am not sure if it really was AI or just somebody with a similar voice masked by the recording quality. My ears hurt in any case.

Deep fakes are something very real for the arts and I am sure that in 100 years, no one will know what was real or generated.

All trumpets have "multiple" bores. The leadpipe "average" is a start. Then the valve cluster, and then the bore up until the bell flare starts.
A good example of Dual Bore would be every trumpet with a reverse tuning slide.

I believe that the dual bore was simply a further marketing term for technology that makes a trumpet ever more cornet-like. Real trumpets in the traditional sense were cylindrical except for the bell and mouthpiece. Over 60% of the bore is cylindrical in this case.
The first valved trumpets were the longer natural instruments with valves. As the instruments got shorter (solely for the purpose of more accuracy - never because of tone), the proportion of tapered to cylindrical bore shifted with less than 50% and "modern C trumpets" are lucky if they are ⅓ cylindrical - now they are more members of the horn family.
So, the King dual-bore does not make large bore easier playing or medium bore bigger sounding. It is a marketing term that has not survived the test of time. If you find a good one, it is simply another old trumpet worth playing.