Posts made by ROWUK

@Anthony-Lenzo

1. Oil floats on water. That makes oiling after playing useless because the bore is covered with condensation. The only oiling that reduces wear is the oiling that prevents two pieces of metal from touching one another.
2. petroleum based oils evaporate mostly within 24 hours making a daily oiling sensible
3. synthetic oils do not evaporate like petroleum based ones, so we really do not need to oil daily. That being said: if we do not brush our teeth really well before playing, the aerosols in our breath will collect and turn the oil to sludge over time. Just adding oil on top of that just makes the sludge thinner.

For valves, I swab the casing every other day and wipe down the valves then when everything is bone dry, reoil. The oil is attached to all moving surfaces and protection is best.

Depending on the make, age and provenance of the horn, a valve job can transform the instrument to even better than new.

@barliman2001 That is why we have alternate fingerings...

@USAFBugler Yes, some older trumpets out of the US were built around A=440 and the current A=442 or 443 just makes life hard to impossible. The solution is to cut the instrument down - preferably at the stem of the bell. Then it could end up better than ever (because you can use it). What usually does not work is shortening it at the tuning slide or mouthpiece.

I have a Selmer Radial 2° D/Eb built in the early 1970s and after taking a bit off of the bell stem to raise the tuning pitch, it is much, much better than before.

@Trumpetb, I report my first hand experience. I did not say that the importer dictated price. I said that the manufacturers have a catalog of options and that the importer can put instruments together from junk to great. The assumption that there must be a moral obligation in commerce is simply naive on your part. That is why there are laws to protect the end customer.

What I do not like is that you derail this thread (as usual with far too many words) which is about somebody selling an instrument because of the perceived category being “student quality”.

@Trumpetb in my view it is a mistake to bring "junk" into this discussion. First of all, who has EVER tried to justify the purchase of those trumpet shaped objects here at Trumpetboards? It simply is not going to happen.

The second issue is that it is mistaken to call them "chinese" or "indian" instruments. Those countries have their manufacturing processes under control and the IMPORTER decides what the instrument should be. During a concert tour to China, I in fact visited a manufacturer. I saw trumpets being built on one assembly line and automobile doors on the next line, lamps on another. I spoke with their sales department and they explained that their "cheapest" instrument costs $50 each if you buy a container full. That instrument would not meet any standard that someone posting here would accept BUT you can also spend $51 and get a nickel ring soldered somewhere, $55 and get a "gold brass" bell. Decent valves (by my standard) are available on instruments costing >$75 and so it goes up to a truly professional standard for between $600 and $700. So, the guilty scum is not the manufacturer, rather the importer and sales organisation without respect for their customers. What gets built is 100% what the customer orders. There is nothing on the planet that can not be made cheaper by changing the demands.

The third issue is price as a parameter for quality. This is not true in ANY industry. A good student instrument costs less than a professional one because the requirements for the instrument can be more or less automated to keep the price down and because the manufacturers can sell more of them. Nuance requires more individual attention in the USA, Europe, Japan and China. That drives the price of a pro trumpet up.

@Anthony-Lenzo Without wanting to turn the discussion negative, just because one likes an instrument does not mean that it is really good or bad. It ONLY means that with the perceptual tools that we currently have available, we can form an opinion (that is only valid for ourselves).

The difference between a "student" and "professional" trumpet has nothing to do with the "quality" of the instrument, rather the intended customer. Student instruments are generally more forgiving when not properly maintained. Student instruments do not "need" superior breath support for relatively good intonation. The blow is better suited to the development of embouchure and useable lung capacity. Professional instruments in the hands of many students generally offer more disadvantages and seldom a better playing experience. This is because nuance is neither heard nor felt in "early" stages of playing.

We get into this "classification" discussion when less experienced members feel a need to "justify" their purchases. What I get from the postings has more to do with understanding their perceptual state and confirmation that a serious exchange of "nuance" is not yet possible.

My stand is to get an instrument that suits the situation and not to buy something that our playing is not qualified for. I generally start my students with something like a Yamaha 3xxx student series instruments. That promotes good habits, prevents excuses and if the student stays motivated, after 3 or 4 years gives them the substantial foundation to pick something that is suitable for the NEXT playing situations.

We can judge instruments by labels, we just need them from ears and people that we can trust - not self proclaimed internet armchair experts.

To address the original post, prices are always relative - even for new horns. In the case of a Martin Committee we have several things contributing to the current high price:

limited quantity of playable instruments
high demand based on the supposed magical properties.

Now, magic IS something that CAN happen between a player and his instrument but that is the catch. The player AND the horn need complementary magic to make this investment worthwhile.

I am convinced that any number of manufacturers could recreate the Committee for a lot less money. There is no magic in the brass or skills required to make one. The issue is, that too few people would buy it because they mostly want the myth first and the story behind having one is created later.

@Anthony-Lenzo I want to be very clear that I am not assuming that your technician made a mistake or was not good! Sometimes there is dirt and damage that the technician can only compensate for. I make a huge difference between repair or restore. Restoration is usually far more costly in terms of time and effort.

Generally, only really serious dents (tube almost mashed together) will affect the intonation.
That being said, a technician that knows enough to tell you if removing the dent can cause a tear or hole, should be able to judge if it is intonation critical. If after a repair, a patch was applied, this will also not have any serious effect on intonation - especially if we are not talking about a professional player and her/his favorite horn!

One recommendation that I would offer to Anthony: please post pictures when you ask questions like this. Maybe we could offer advice BEFORE you make an uninformed decision. Some of us have been doing this for a VERY LONG TIME!

I have never had a dent tear because my tech annealed the dents before doing anything. Annealing is a process to soften the grain structure of metal to reduce stress. It is used when originally forming the tuning slide and slide bows as well as when hammering the bell.

@administrator your suspicion is correct. A real slide trombone. The slide is of no big concern. Habits are built through repetitions and I already have enough alto clef material to get started. I have already committed to a concert in April, so I know what is coming.

I have bought myself an alto trombone (another member of the trumpet family) for Christmas. As the playing register is similar to the trumpet, the mouthpieces are in sizes similar to the baroque trumpet, I thought that I would give it a go.

I will report on my progress. As I have some trumpet playing Advent and Christmas concerts still scheduled, I have not yet played it.

I would never oil the inside. Remember: valve oil is NOT food safe and if you oil the bore, you WILL breathe in the vapor.

Regular maintenance should include bathing the horn in proportion to how often it is played.

Supposedly WD40 is food safe and designed to displace water (WD=Water Displacement). That may be an option, but just as I prefer bathing myself, my horn certainly deserves regular attention too!.

With any vintage instrument it is a question of the true condition, how hard it was played previously and if it gets past these mechanical checks, if we can get the sound that we need.

Granted, there are people that get the warm fuzzies every time the word vintage falls. There it does NOT matter what a reality check is worth.

I would say that about half of the vintage instruments that I have ever played were not worth my time or effort. Pitch, intonation, valves and tone were simply not up to snuff. I have a lot of old instruments but they are ALL PLAYERS.

I do not consider the coprion bells to be special in any way except to the marketing departments. There are simply too many truly sensational instruments based on "standard techniques".

@Dr-GO said in Goodbye adjustable finger ring:

Freedom abounds with the Martin Committee. No ring needed. With its greasy ability for slotting, the third ring is obsolete. Check out the many pictures of Miles and Botti. You will note an absence of the third slide ring.

Maybe in a Jazz setting, but NEVER in a classical setting. Those centered, resonant low C# and Ds simply need to fit in the section sound and that does not work without mechanical adjustment.

@Richard-III I am not sure that we should move things so quickly. The human state for the most part is infinitely adaptable and there are A LOT OF PLAYERS young and old that play stock Bach Strads or Yamaha Xenos without mods.

The adjustable ring is yet another reason why student instruments do not respond as well as more "professional" ones. Play a series of octave slurs at medium loudness (especially second line G to top of stave) and you will notice a HUGE difference with and without the adjustable ring.
I have NEVER had a student that needed a ring in a different position. In the beginning the pinky goes in the ring and during puberty (when the third slide becomes more important) the ring finger. If the third slide is well maintained, both fingers work well enough!
While we are at it, we teachers have to insure that the valves are not held with a "grip of death", rather just squeezing enough for stability. This also improves response dramatically!

@barliman2001 I have been there and after 4 years, am almost back to where I was before. In my case, an accident knocked the 4 front jaw teeth loose beyond repair. In addition, that started a chain reaction that ultimately resulted in me losing all of my teeth. There seems to be bacteria in the mouth just waiting for trauma.
Dentures were the first step and I learned all about dental cremes and other methods to "glue" them in. I learned that a cup of hot coffee dissolved those dental adhesives, so my diet changed during that time too. As the dentures were pretty much the same as the teeth preceding them, my playing was stable. After the gums all healed (6 months), implants were the solution. After that, the geometry of the mouth changed only by microns, but it still was a very dramatic change and it took a year to get back on track. Fortunately, that was during the Covid pandemic so I did not disappoint any of the people that book me.

If you have any questions, let me know.

@Trumpetb This is my last comment to you:
The subject in this thread is very specific. Your (too) many words seem more like damage control than a better analysis.
I have said everything applicable and will not engage with you in completely unrelated issues.
You can try to bend my words, my meaning whatever, this is not my problem. It is obvious that you know better. What motivation you have to continue is of no interest to me. In my world, people that choose to ignore are "ignorant", meaning conciously choosing to ignore supporting facts. In earlier years, I in fact had a crusade against mouthpiece safaris that have ruined more players than ever helped. Just observing the used mouthpiece market it becomes apparent where the empty promises of range, endurance and sound are. I "saved" several students from this obsession.

It is VERY EASY to tell if an issue is the player or the equipment. The OPs description is perfectly adequate for my analysis and qualified suggestion. There are telltale signs indicating if there is something about a mouthpiece that is not optimal. None in this thread for the OP and none for you based on what you report about your own playing.

The most damaging advice for the question presented in this thread in my opinion is, "just try it". We have an acclimation period and as I said, that can be months. When playing around with our habits, certain controls MUST be met to have a qualified result.

Do not expect any further comments to your posting. It already has gone far beyond anything that I would normally even bother with.

One more snippet out of my lifes path:
The greatest liability to a rehearsal or performance, is the low to medium chops players showing up to a rehearsal with 4 or 5 trumpets and bragging about why each piece needs a different instrument or mouthpiece. This person has lost all connection to reality unless it is an ensemble specialized in period playing with the unlikely bad programming that needs so many instruments.
Now, granted, I have given recitals with the theme "history of the trumpet". In this case, I did have different mouthpieces for my rennaissance natural trumpet, early baroque natural trumpet, late baroque natural trumpet, early classical natural trumpet, classical keyed trumpet, classical valved trumpet, romantic era valved trumpet and then the historical instruments from the 20th century (1911 Holton Clarke model long cornet, 1936 Heckel rotary Bb trumpet). These instruments were played in a solo context to show what was common at the time of manufacture - not forced on an ensemble not capable of embracing and showcasing the specialties.
So, I have a lot of mouthpieces, but never talk about them as my use case is historical performing practice, not everyday community band stuff. For someone with difficulty with G#, a mouthpiece change is the worst advice that I could give

@J-Jericho Great article and many things that I did not know!