Posts made by ROWUK

Oh boy is this thread a can of worms.

In my view, there are many paths to bliss and even more to hell. What we thought that we understood is one of the major character deficiencies in people that can not get space between them and concepts. Lead trumpeters that are VERY convinced that their success is unique often have trouble with other concepts. I also would not recommend that fortunate, excellent players mess with (their own) success.

I will maintain that there are as many "extremely successful" players with and without buzzing. That is enough for me not to damn one side or the other. I would guess that there are also a great deal of players getting everything wrong, but they can only be cited as bad examples.

Up until a couple of months ago, I never buzzed (55 years). Three years ago I had an accident that has now lead to 100% implants and dentures. With my old routine and new teeth, I was able to get the basics back, but things above the staff were elusive (although previously range never was an issue). Since 6 weeks, I have a steady free buzzing program and my tone, articulation and range are coming back at about a half tone every 2 or 3 days. The targeted free buzzing may not be the only way, but 10-15 minutes per day have certainly done wonders for me in getting a grip on embouchure geometry.

Now, I consider Al Vizzuttis' rant to be "mostly true". The exaggeration however is that occasional buzzing will change/hurt our concept of tone. We are creatures of habit. If we do 5 minutes of buzzing per day and an hour of normal practice, what are the odds that buzzing would kill that? In my case 15 minutes of buzzing and 2 hours of practice seems to be a great mix. The targeted buzzing has built strength much faster than my standard routine did. I do not consider my "tone" to be the focus of buzzing. Maybe it is just teaching an old dog new tricks when the old ones don't work anymore. I don't know or care. I am now playing at a level (again) that gets me rebooked. Buzzing has no cost of business. I am sacrificing nothing.

I was fortunate that the accident and aftermath all happened in the Covid era where there were hardly any gigs.

There is such a thing. I have one (not for sale) made in the 1870s. Occasionally they pop up. A friend of mine has a similar Heckel F. They are NOT the alto instruments however. They have the same bore and bell as a soprano Bb trumpet.!
I think that Dotzauer still builds them.
IMG_1298.JPG

I would insist that the major difference between many "older" cornets and trumpets is the mouthpiece and attitude of the player. If someone wants a killer 50s Martin Committee for cheap, buy the cornet and get a good tech to change the mouthpiece receiver to trumpet.
All reasonable colleagues will have no issue!

3 valve piccs can work IF we have an half tone extension for the third valve (1+2+3 should give us the low concert D with the A tuning). Then all of the D major baroque stuff works. I have a 3 valve rotary pic and it is my go to instrument for baroque literature in D or Eb when I play modern horns.

@trumpetb Lengthy posts can be very useful when covering material that can not be reduced. I often complain about a tendency to simplify complex issues because the root cause is to manipulate instead of achieve better common understanding. In addition incorrect use of "science" as a supposed solution often leads to "lengthy" posting with no real resolution.

Your last post actually covers many issues (and I don't know why):

1. disposition to change or modify
2. need for a replacement spring
3. what to do when replacements are not available
4. threads that wander
5. responsibility of members

In my view, communities develop based on whatever level of communication that the community members gravitate to. The interest to post is based on the individual expectations. If the general tone (of the community) is lengthy, those interested in the topic give up after a while. If the general expectation is no longer than necessary, a different mix of posting occurs.

In my view, the issue of springs is very interesting with great need for mythbusting. As disposition and actual understanding the material leads to different courses of action, there is a lot to talk about. That has nothing to do with certain members tendency to post a lot of words.

Some really long posts for a simple original question about where to get stiffer springs. Even in Germany, Bach only seems to offer 2 versions: light and standard. Third parties have other parts that can not be compared by the on line description.

https://www.austincustombrass.biz/high-speed-valve-springs-for-trumpet/
https://mouthpieceexpress.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=19850&osCsid=fnopp4r1ndjgh4loulpf415524
https://thompsonmusic.com/product/high-speed-valve-springs/

@trumpetb I am in my late 60s and have been playing for over 50 years.
My Bach C229 was purchased in 1974 and still has the original springs
My Monette Raja C was built in 1989/1990 and still has the original springs
My Selmer Radial 2° Model 75 was built in 1974 and still has the original springs
My Selmer Radial 2° D trumpet was built in 1978 and still has the original springs
My Heckel rotary Bb was built in 1938 and still has the original springs
My Getzen 4 valve flugelhorn was built in the 1970s and still has the original springs

The rest of my horns are similar. They ALL get played a lot but do not need stretching or replacement. That being said, my horns do go to a technician every couple of years for a checkup and chemical clean (no ultrasound bath). My suspicion is that the spring gets blamed for valve dirt, distortion and damage because stretching is a supposed "cheaper fix".

I will not deny that there are causes to replace springs, but I see little to no reason to ever stretch - unless the valve has exceptionally long throw (like old Benges). Stretching to fine tune tension simply has no benefit.

The short throw of typical trumpet valves does not cause excessive wear on spring tension. If the valves are regularly cleaned and oiled, the spring has a very easy job and as I noted above, lasts for decades with no hit in performance.

As I previously posted, stretching the spring does unpredictable things to K - the tension. No general statement can be made except that the stretching was not worth it.

I guess that we will get no agreement, so let us agree to disagree. Every stretched spring experiment that I know about (with my 55+ years of playing there were a few), have not improved anything. Sticky valves remained sticky, the valves were never faster and more often than not, the scraping noise from bent springs. Pages of irrelevant math do not change the basic premise, so why argue? I have all of the stuff to measure and document the changes (I train our employees and customers to operate and service thermal cutting machines where we use springs in various functions), but have no interest as I have never had a positive experience related to the trumpet or our machines.
I would further advance that springs do not increase playing speed as our fine motor activity is what it is and the quality of the valve lubrication is the deciding factor and very much subject to environmental factors (temperature, aerosols, stroke angle when depressing the valve).
In my world, stiffer springs are for calming the brain of certain players, not increasing performance.
I am always amazed at how smooth and light the action of my valves are after a „maintenance“ by technicians that I trust. I am anally retentive about cleanliness next to godliness when applied to trumpet valves, but still, they apply magic, not springs. They also are very adament about not stretching.

@trumpetb I will insist that "stretching" the spring will not improve performance. We may be able to squeeze a bit more life out of it, but if our stretch is NOT ABSOLUTELY STRAIGHT, the spring is damaged and will actually have worse performance.
Stretching a spring for more tension also assumes that the stretched wire will hold the stretch, that would have to be proven on a case by case basis.

I would insist that Hookes law does not apply here.

F = kx

“F” being the amount of push or pull is on the spring

“k” being a constant, indicating the stiffness of the spring

“x” being the distance the spring was pushed or pulled

Our distance that we stretched is a deformation of the wire and the "new" base for testing. Stretching the spring means that we exceed its elasticity, thus destroying all of the original parameters. What K is left after deformation depends on the spring material and tension. Now, if we retemper after stretch, we have a new animal. I have never read about retempering valve springs.

@kehaulani said in Buying a new home audio system:

I'm a simple guy, too. Sound first, technology . . meh. Give me a set of KLH speakers and an Onkyo amp and I'm a happy guy.

I do agree with one thing, though. Check the equipment's input jacks. They are different on various equipment and don't take for granted that the ones you need are there.

KLH Model 9s were about the best that money could buy once upon a time, and even today they are still very, very close! I am not sure that there is an Onkyo amplifier suitable however...

@trumpetb said in Tough Decision to make:

That is so true ROWUK we are often captivated by a single horn and attribute characteristics to it that maintain a reverence for it that is not borne out by the real facts.

What I mean by this is, the sound of a horn is a correlation between the embouchure the players characteristic sound, the mouthpiece used and the instrument itself.

I cannot say how many times that the sound of a horn has been utterly transformed by a mouthpiece change or to a lesser extent an embouchure change or to an even lesser extent a change in my sound concept while playing.

It is often asked which horn will make this sound or that sound or it is asked what horn dizzy or louis or chet or miles played as if we might sound like dizzy on dizzys horn.

No

We can however mould ourselves if given the right guidance and the right mouthpiece to go some way towards achieving the sound that we crave. Or even better our own sound.

We can play mariachi, symphonic, lead, smooth, the instruments are largely limitless if we know what we are doing and if we can match the equipment to ourselves and mould ourselves to the equipment.

chet dispensed with his flugel saying he has no need of it he can sound like a flugel on his trumpet if he chooses to. I am convinced he could easily do that.

But then some horns have that extra something that cannot be emulated by changing mouthpiece or changing the approach.

The best mouthpiece cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear even if it can get very close to it.

Go to horns, are of that type, we simply can do more of what we want and more convincingly and naturally with our go to horn.

I have a modern yamaha a very capable horn but there is something missing that I get with my goto that I cannot get with this yamaha or any other horn and that makes my goto the most satisfying instrument that I have and I play better on my go to than any other horn because of it.

It has taken me decades to find and now it is with me and I am forever in the debt of all who helped me find it and prepared me so that I could recognise it when I found it.

The dream becomes reality only when we have put enough work in and understand how to use it to its full potential.

I very much disagree with the idea of a mouthpiece transforming an instrument. We are creatures of habit and building new ones takes a long time - that is called "acclimation" and is the reason why my students get extended playing time with my collection of specialty mouthpieces - we need months to acclimate and then to discover that the first impressions were not the lasting ones is a big deal.

@kehaulani said in Tough Decision to make:

Good grief. Isn't the OP's question simply which of two horns to buy? You play them both and pick the one that plays and sounds the best and is well built.. If it's a tie, go with nostalgia or it's mystique to you.

It's not rocket science or polemics or pseudo creative writing 101.

If it were only this easy. There are so many reasons to buy a horn. I have 20+ and identify with each one. Every one has its use case. They all get played without having to make up stories about why.

That being said, we are creatures of habit and I am convinced that it takes months to really acclimate - then the sound and blow is considerably different than the first impression.

@administrator
My take on this is perhaps a bit unconventional, but I would insist that between those two horns, it does not matter. Regardless of which on you pick, there will always be something in the back of your mind questioning that choice.
That being said, I do not believe in a lot of this synergy blah. I do not believe that most musicians have a "well formed concept" that would guide them only to specific hardware (a claim that I make as a long time Monette trumpet owner). The musician that concentrates on the music, discovers whatever horn that they have in their hands in a special way. I do use my Monette C trumpet more than any other horn BUT I am not musically "limited" in the orchestra when I play my Selmer, Bach or any other horn. That does not mean that the Monette is not special to me, it only means that when I play, I have no dependencies, no questions in the back of my mind concerning hardware.

So, based on what you have posted, the Blackburn has appealed to you for many more years and the Yamaha discovery is new and has no specific "reasons" except hearsay. If you were my student, I would say play before you pay and would drive with you to wherever to make an informed decision with an extra set of ears that you could trust.

One thing is clear to me, I have many players that I admire and they cover just about every horn one could imagine. That means that the difference is them, not the hardware.

@trumpetb Thank you for the comments.
Before getting into any details, I do not have an audiophile bone in my whole body. My playback is from a musicians perspective totally free of audiophile artifacts like "pinpoint imaging", high resolution or any other copy/paste thing used by the audio press. Design goals were a natural soundstage representing about row 15 in my favorite concert hall, natural sense of space and size - singers mouths should not be portrayed with the same hugeness as a piano or string section. In addition, the integration between the drivers is something that I payed special attention to. The crossover points are not audible to anyone that has visited and spent any time listening.

What you can not see: The real bamboo wood floor is covering up a concrete slab to which it is directly attached (constrained layer). It does not show any resonances below 500 Hz. The sand filled woofer cabinet also does a remarkable job of destroying anything that would want to escape the closed box. The back of the speaker has two high quality castors to ease moving the speakers. The front of the cabinet has two legs with a ball bearing at the base to couple where the woofer has the most weight. This couples with the hard bamboo with a very small area.

Soundproofing is something that I have no interest in. None of the products that I have ever tested resulted in anything sonically worthy. The lumpy decay characteristics of a treated room may be OK with commercial close miked studio recordings that have no natural acoustics, but that is not what I seriously listen to. If I want freedom of room acoustics, I use my AKG 701 headphones.

Horn loudspeakers ARE used to limit crosstalk - in a very natural way, lowering distortion and amp power requirements. With about a 60° dispersion between 500 and 20K, side walls, floors and ceilings are adequately "out of the picture". The vertical woofer array also limits dispersion in that plane.

The Van den Hul wiring harness for the tone arm is twisted, but not too tightly. The SME 3009 II tonearm does not have a removable headshell.

Speaker cable voodoo is something that I refuse to comment on. My amplifiers are near the speakers and all of the speaker level interconnects are less than 12" long.

Interconnect artifacts are audible, but not in the audiophile sense. Low capacitance, resistance and excellent shielding are simple things easily accomplished. This also reflects what recording engineers have known for decades. The miles of microphone cables do not seem to have comprimised any of the recordings that I use as references. A squirt of WD40 on all of the RCA plugs keeps corrosion minimized without compromising the metal to metal contact.

The only real issue that I had was getting a phono preamp that had enough gain to match my digital devices. So with Tim DeParavicinis help, I modified the EAR 834P to get more gain. The results with the Ortofon Rohmann cartridge (predecessor to the Winfield) now are equal to the digital playback. The level of enjoyment is equal although I have no digital or analog releases that sound exactly the same - despite mastering work.

The focus is ONLY on my own personal enjoyment and this is done simply by identifying root negative artifacts and eliminating them (one by one over many years). There is not much left to do, although the playback is not perfect. The limiting factors (room size for instance) are not possibilities that I can do anything about.

There are laws about retaining data when membership expires. Most software gives the user(member) a choice of just leaving or removing all traces. If someone leaves mad, the chance of them caring about their footprint in this or any other forum is about zero. That is why we need positive interaction between us. Then if life determines that we have no time - or ambition, we remain a member but simply do not visit.

Now, banning does not delete an account. It just removes someones ability to post. I know of no admins that delete more than abusive posts.

@barliman2001 If I am not mistaken, the banned one here also got a vacation at TrumpetMaster for tthe same reason.

@ssmith1226 The solution for intonation is a combination of things: matching the mouthpiece backbore, leadpipe, mass at specific places and bracing.

For me, the first thing is the prepared body. Without a relaxed but straight posture, nothing else can be optimised. After that comes focus - removing distractions from the viewing field... and getting into the mood.
Then comes breathing/exhaling tones - my circle of breath. Once the juices are flowing all of the rest.

@mike-ansberry This is a HUGE topic. I built my own, horn loudspeakers and low powered tube amplification.

@ssmith1226 Yes, I did play one for a while. It was HORRIBLY out of tune. Had I known then what I know today, I would have been able to get that fixed. Still, It was a marching band instrument, not really something for blend in the orchestra.