Posts made by ROWUK

Let's get this "higher quality made in the US" notion out of our heads. Quality has NOTHING to o with location. Quality is a function of responsible decisions in the manufacturing process. America has NOTHING that would be decisive in higher quaity instruments. Every company decides how much "quality" goes into their products. In the case of chinese manufacturers, the importers placing the order decide how much "quality should be built and they get what they pay for.

As far as Americans out of work, that is how capitalism works. Money does not care if a specific group of people are employed. It only cares if anyone is left to buy the products.

The bore size of a trumpet is pretty much insignificant as a single parameter. There are bright and dark small and large bore trumpets, there are free blowing large and small bore trumpets. The achievable volume is not a function of the bore, rather the efficiency of the working system. We are not listening to an amplified buzz of the lips, rather a resonance (standing wave) in the horn. Due to a mismatch in the length of the horn and the bell shape, a small portion of that resonance “leaks” out. That is what we hear.

It is safe to say that most trumpet building companies do not have a specific sound color that they are building. They may have - by luck, found something that works and is saleable. Contrast this to the high end automobile industry where the sound of an exhaust system, slamming door, road noise leaking into the passenger area are all carefully engineered.

What is the common denominator of Schilke trumpets? I would say manufacturing quality, not a tonal characteristic. Bach is known for their core - something that has not changed or improved for decades. Yamaha on the other hand reinvented the trumpet sound with a Xeno. There is a characteristic tone through the whole range of those trumpets. The better Bachs from many companies also offer no real tonal advantage and those companies building them did not have tone as the goal, rather only sales.

In my world, next to Yamaha is Monette. He is not the Burger King of trumpets, you don’t get it your way. The trumpets have a characteristic sound that is consistent through ALL of the models.

There is plenty of room for innovation. We simply need to start asking the right questions and that starts maybe 50 feet in front of the horn. My first question would be “do trumpets need to be as loud as they are”. I believe that most modern trumpets have a dramatically comprimised tonal palette of colors due to the fact that they were built for louder. The first lawsuits have been won because of the damage that the brass intensity causes in orchestras. Can’t we get that glorious halo around the sound at a lower loudness? Most certainly - but not from companies selling bore size.

Many want simple answers to complex questions. That is normally a sign of something not good ahead. That is how politics work and we all know how that ends up.

I can appreciate the question. Back at the old place I started at a time where the web had novelty for me. I had little or no other "social media" on my plate. My level of interest in repeating myself was certainly far different than it is today. Still today, I have essentially no motivation to start that over again. Whether it stays that way, or if something pops up to spark my interest, I simply do not know. Currently the additional time behind the horn reaps fruits - that the Internet does not. Sorry.

@N1684T Around $400.00

B&S is a well known German company in a traditional brass making region in Germany on the Czech border. They are very serious about what they do.

B&S stands for Blas und Signalinstrumentenfabrik = Wind and fanfare instrument company. They have been around for a ling time.

I consider the Challenger series NOT to be the best horns that they build, but to be the better Bach trumpets.

Yep, the shiniest trumpet - for the first 6 months. The problem with heavy trumpets is that unless they are really well tuned, the honeymoon is over after 8 weeks.

I had an elderly tuba playing student that got back to playing before he could even speak again. Tongue/breath coordination helped a whole lot as did forming the embouchure. What helped most was playing in front of a mirror which offered at least optical feedback before the sense of „feel“ came back.

My recommendation for practice is to take notes and rejoice in accomplished „small steps“! This is my strategy for all students, but especially if we have a temporary or permanent handicap, we need all of the objectiveness that we can find.

Upper range? Considering the standard repertoire for trumpet, up to E or F above high C is pretty much „standard range“.

In any case, one (and I do) can use the same fingerings as an octave lower. Then the transitions sound clean. F above high C is not in tune or centered in pitch when played open. It is almost F#.

Now, with the natural trumpet, the melody range starts with that high C (albeit, due to the much longer instrument, it sounds an octave lower). With that instrument, you have to learn a new „vocabulary“ with no valves to help.

Nice comparison Trent. My experience with the tuning bell Schilkes is fine up to mezzoforte after which the transition to loud is much less controllable than bells with braces. The brilliance just takes off - which is fine for big band jazz or combo work, but in a classical setting becomes a liability. Countless tests with sound posts did not solve my problem.

I liked the original B1 bell and the Kanstul Benge copy best. It had the right combination of core and halo for my ears. The other three were very good but not as balanced in tone/core. I have a student with a tuning bell Schilke B1, B6 and a modified C. The B1 and C trumpets have the best balance and playing duets has sum and difference tones bouncing all over the practice room.

For my tuning Bell Bach 229H, I developed a brace for tuning slide bells. That gave me the response advantage of a brace and the intonation advantage of the tuning bell.

If I owned that horn, it would also be a keeper. It is so much different than everything else and thus broadens the palette of colors that I could offer.

@stumac I think that most are dead because the market did not want what they were making - for the price that they were asking. Value is an interesting concept and it is still exists today. When businesses expand, they take a risk. When businesses have more overhead than turnover, they have a problem.

I admire the Chinese for their granular production. The same production line can build a $50 or a $1000 trumpet. The quality is determined by the person placing the order not the artisan. I have played prototypes of both. The knowledgable reseller does not HAVE to screw their customer.

On another side, I bought a 3d printer and have been printing mouthpieces. They are WAY TOO GOOD. I am not selling or taking orders, I am learning and offering my students the possibility to play before they pay. They can evaluate what the difference between an A, B, C, D, E cup is as well as backbores and rim shapes. Then they buy what works. There has not been much R&D on natural trumpet mouthpieces - just copies made of historical ones without knowledge if they were „high performance“ back then. For less than $1, I can experiment until I am happy. Then the 3d model can be made in silver, brass, copper or any printable plastic. Will this change the mouthpiece market - I certainly believe so. Print on demand could be a great advantage to a pro shop. No appreciable inventory. The printers with suitable resolution are available. Kelly mouthpiece anyone?

I do not understand the excitement. Is horn X a rip off? Well, that depends on our definition.

Most „civilized“ countries have trademark laws. If a manufacturer breaks those laws, then they pay the price. That does not make the product bad or the price point irrelevant.
What bothers me most, is the selective use of emotion. Why should anyone be pissed off when a company in China or elsewhere fills an economic need? Are we mad because the word „Stradivarius“ has been used twice? Are we mad because a band teacher should „know better“? Are we just mad because that is the current popular political vent?

I see nothing wrong with this horn. I personally have a high performance standard for my own instruments not yet filled by a cheap instrument and I discuss this issue openly with my students and their parents. If they make another decision, fine. The most important thing is that the student enjoys playing and practicing. Everything else rests on those shoulders.

In 1975 a Bach trumpet was <$500 at Giardinellis in New York. I wish that salaries had inflated this much....

Kodak learned the hard way what happens when the market and the product no longer match. The digital revolution blew them out of the water. How many manufacturers of instruments are now dead. Why are they dead?

To be honest, for many kids, it is the cheap horn or no horn. They are not interested in flea market bargains on „vintage“ instruments with 50% lacquer.

Let us not let elitism screw up something very precious. There can be value at this level.

We can play longtones intelligently or carelessly. That is the difference between working or wasting.

That horn probably has a tone that peels paint - or lacquer...

There are no "best" valves. Each type has its advantage and disadvantages. For a student horn, bulletproof stainless valves have a strong selling point. To a professional player that takes meticulous care in oiling and cleaning, no technology is better or worse.

As far as design goes, the Selmer Radial 2° valve block had definite ergonomic advantages. I can't say that they are faster than Bach, Getzen, Monette or Schilke valves however.

@J-Jericho Everything makes a difference. Sometimes a couple of grams of mass can change response dramatically. I notice a huge difference between rotary and piston valves too. The Wiss valve block is so different in mass and geometry, I am sure that there is a difference in how it plays. That being said, I cannot attribute any deficite in trumpet design to valve blocks. Small imperfections in the bore are what makes a trumpet even playable. The closer we get to a "perfect" horn, the harder it is to tune and the more uneven the blow is.

@stumac said in Trumpets Made ONLY by Their Maker:

Jerome Wiss, a French maker who has completely redesigned the trumpet including the valve block with only 2 passages through the valves, in the up position the air goes through one port in one direction, in the down position the same port in the opposite direction, makes it all himself.

He came on TH three years ago announcing his new trumpet and was driven off by people who could not understand how it worked.

I ordered one beginning of April, delivery November/December.

Regards, Stuart.

I am anxious to hear of your first and lasting impressions. While standard valves (rotary and piston) in many respects are really "dumb design" (in respect to geometry, wear, mass, friction), they have stood the test of time. It is great that we have some free thinkers like Wiss, Monette and others that push the envelope - in spite of the nay sayers.

@Dr-GO you know my opinion of Jason Harrelson and his business practices. I do not consider his palette of instruments that adaptive. Sure, there is a lot to customize, I consider his approach to give a very „playable“ instrument but it locks the player into a certain shade of color. That is the bogusness of the concept. It is not what is in the players head, it is the shade injected by the maker.

This is my point. Those that buy those instruments do not „have to“, they simply can. The story comes after the fact.

I was with a student recently at a well stocked music store. The student was looking for a C trumpet. There were 6 instruments there, additionally I had my modified tuning bell Bach CL229H and my Monette Raja. For that student, a used Schilke screamed buy me! He sounded better with that instrument than with all the others. We had rehearsed auditioning instruments weeks before the trip. The student stuck to the audition procedures and was able to easily sift through the choices. We used my Monette as a reference but in the students case, it did not have that something special that the Schilke did.

I know of one manufacturer in Munich that has built „reference“ trumpets that are not sold or loaned. Potential buyers get a valve section and add parts with the goal of putting an instrument together that is better than the reference. They have a box of over 100 leadpipes -all essentially that all measure the same - but play differently. With the right audition procedure it only takes an hour to get the „best one“. Then comes the bell - much harder to zero in. At the end, braces are fitted. With another student of mine, we needed 3 hours to select the parts. This is what I was talking about. We got a horn that matched what was in the players head. It took 100 leadpipes and 10+ bells. This is NOT the Harrelson or Monette experience.

I can‘t speak for Harrelson as I have only played them but never bought one. In the case of Monette where I have 3, I can testify that the first one changed me. The second one was built on 10 years of communication with Monette and the positive experiences with the first instrument. He changed it. The third instrument is simply pick it up and play. There is no need to „think“ about color. It just happens.

The time frame needed to make musical decisions precludes „magic“.

Even although I own some trumpets that qualify in this thread, I think that the concept is bogus. Players buy custom horns because they CAN, not because they musically "have to".

There is a concept that the horn finds the player that I think is very true - but how much opportunity do we get to play those custom horns long enough before we pay? Being honest - essentially never. Has anyone checked out how many used custom horns are available - more than one would expect considering how special they are supposed to be.

Another misconception is the custom horn built for the player. Well, the truth is that all of those custom builders are giving you what they believe. You may get a choice of bell, bore or weight, but what trumpeter really understands how a trumpet works AND how they work? What builder takes the time to really get to know the intimate side of a clients playing. Who has the ability to finesse the strengths of a player in the match of instrument. I can only think of one manufacturer that does and it only works like that on the second, third or fourth instrument.

So, my take is:

1. start safe with a "standard" Bach, Schilke, Yamaha if you are really serious. Then as time goes on and dues are paid, play everything that you can get your hands on. Visit players that have "interesting horns" and take your time.
2. if you get a second horn, play it exclusively for a while to get intimate with it
3. NEVER EVER believe that hardware will solve a software problem.

@JorgePD said in Did anyone made a copy of "The Circle of Breath":

So based on what I’m reading here, the Circle of Breath is more than just a breathing exercise. It also helps to relax the body and mind, which prepares us to be more effective when playing the trumpet. Is that correct?

It is simply a collection of things that work well together with a clear order to what to do when.

@JorgePD said in Did anyone made a copy of "The Circle of Breath":

Would working on the circle of breath be part of your warm up?

It is the core of everything that I do. If I have time for a warmup, for sure. If not, some other time of the day. We need to stay connected to the needs of our bodies and attitudes.