Posts made by ROWUK

@Kehaulani If that was the goal, they failed miserably. I consider them to be light years apart on blow, core and tone.

@Kehaulani said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

Science aside, , I wonder if instrument makers don't use the bore sizes as matters of classifications, within their own relative results. That horns aren't built with certain characteristics that fall within the bore-size classifications. And these characteristics apply to these given classifications regardless of how it's done?

Man, that's hard to express what I want to say! My point is that, within a given make, do the terms include certain characteristics that show the results and not necessarily the how.

So, if I buy a medium-bore Getzen and a large-bore Getzen, and a medium-bore Schilke and a large-bore Schilke, will the medium-bore horns be have certain characteristics that separate them from their large-bore counterparts?

This was certainly the way that they were built before the Xeno (with the exception of the Bach ML Vindabona). If you want to reduce the amount of „air“ required in a large bore Bach, remove the bell brace next to the tuning slide. Optionally, one could purchase the models with a reversed tuning slide. There the brace is closer to the valve block. More energy escapes through the bell, we hear ourselves better. We fool ourselves into believing that we need less air.

One more time: moving air is ONLY necessary to get the lips vibrating and lubricate them so that the standing wave can be maintained. We are NOT talking about the physical act of filling a trumpet up with air (it is already full) or about fluid dynamics blowing air through a specific pipe size.

If we want to measure how much air the trumpet needs (or better, how inefficient our embouchure is), hold long tones out. Write down when you run out of air. Repeat 25 times for statistical relevance and then try the next instrument.

@Vulgano-Brother said in TrumpetMaster.com:

I was a moderator there, and as far as I know, none of us knew or had contact information for MJ other than through TM.

I agree with this. Even in the last months, I don‘t know of MJ answering PMs.

@Kehaulani said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

So, if I buy a medium-bore and a large-bore from Kanstul, I would not find the large-bore harder on my endurance and other perimeters at the end of a night's gig? They would have the same result?

This is a considerably different question.
The first issue for comparison is acclimation. We are most comfortable with the stuff that we are used to because more is automated. The brain is actually in the way of change.
The second issue is match of the mouthpiece to the different bore progression and bell shape. Remember, the trumpet is a complete system including the player.
The third issue is where will we be playing. Matching a section sound in a wind band is a very much different use case than manipulating orchestral fabric as a symphonic player.
The fourth issue is our ability to hear ourselves. Take your favorite horn into a bathroom and play your favorite excerpt, then go outdoors to a lake and play with no acoustical feedback - the same horn us now stuffy and much harder to play.
The fifth issue is bias confirmation. Our generation grew up on starting with ML instruments and a 7C and then maturing to a larger horn and specialty mouthpiece. What a crock!
The last issue is the state of our playing. Read Dave Monettes testimonials from players after getting their bodies aligned. This is not voodoo or Monette specific but unfortunately too few players and teachers invest enough here.

In my case, my range, endurance does not change once acclimated. The difference between horns is color and I leverage this to the performances benefit. Most of the historical copies are smaller bore but have bigger bells than we generally play today.

@Dr-GO said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

@ROWUK said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

Simply, NO. it is not the bore that needs air. It is the resistance and that has nothing to do with the bore.

Thanks Rowuk. I've been trying to convince others on this thread but they all seem to be reluctant to appreciate the physics of a propagating sound wave through various materials. I guess my having a PhD in quantum chemistry doesn't qualify me, but your understanding of Trumpet physics truly blends with my training in wave forms.

The simple observation that if it was air transmission dependent, we would not be hearing the sound until seconds after a note was played. I hope people reflect on these concepts as I do feel this understanding can enhance the performance we get from our horns.

I have experimented with a headphone speaker glued to a mouthpiece. The trumpet needs no air flow. Only the players lips need enough air to get them to open and close by overcoming lip tension. The smart players learn to reduce tension, that reduces pressure and the amount of air flowing.

To be honest, I think that the air discussion has more to do with mine is bigger than yours than with serious intelligent practice. If a trumpet needs more air, the phrases that we play become shorter.

@uqj3ww8jw

I use a Reunion Blues leather double bag. They do not appear to make it anymore but here is an almost identical item from Gard:
https://www.gardbags.com/en/brasswind/trumpet/gig-bag/9-mlk-gard-doublers-trumpet-flugelhorn-gig-bag-leather.html

I have been using mine for 20 years and it still is great.

@moshe said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

If all other factors are the same,
a larger bore takes more air.

On the other hand, things such as tightness of the wrap can cause the larger bore to require less air than the smaller bore.

So the answer is the same as what I wear:

Depends.

moshe

@moshe said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

If all other factors are the same,
a larger bore takes more air.

On the other hand, things such as tightness of the wrap can cause the larger bore to require less air than the smaller bore.

So the answer is the same as what I wear:

Depends.

moshe

Simply, NO. it is not the bore that needs air. It is the resistance and that has nothing to do with the bore.

@L-A-Horn
For me, the best off brand is Monette - regardless of price. For one of my students it was a used Schilke B1 and B6 (both under $600 used but in excellent condition). My beginning students normally start with a Yamaha 3xxx, which is not an off brand but has incredible bang for the buck - including resale.

I have played a bunch of the Carol trumpets that have good value, but little bang if you are going to study classical trumpet (you will end up having to buy a Bach or Yamaha anyway). A B&S Challenger 2 offers most of what a Bach 180 does for far less money. Ivan Hunter visited a while back with some prototypes of his horns and they are glorious and reasonably priced!

So as we see, from my view, bang means suitable for the job, resellable without great loss, in great playing condition (having to get a used horn refurbed before being able to use it is a crap shoot). The price must be justified based on the quality of the tool.

@L-A-Horn said in Best Off-brand Trumpets:

@ROWUK Generally, when people consider off-brand trumpets, it's to save some money and/or stay within budget. Therefore, off-brand would be one that's not considered mainstream and requires significant investment. My hope is that your post isn't to dispirit an otherwise healthy conversation.

@Dr-GO They can have your daughters, but not your instruments. Spoken like a true musician.

My intent is not to dispirit the thread. If we define the "intent", there is actually a lot to talk about. Let us take "best" out and replace it with high value/low price. In most cases I would not even consider most mainstream instruments as "best".

@Dr-GO said in Best Off-brand Trumpets:

Here is a pic of my Allora Pocket Trumpet

Can't get more "off" than that...

@Kehaulani said in Kanstul -- Any News?:

I'm wondering (jazz-wise), that, if you want a Committee sound (whatever that is), that all you need is a horn in the ballfield, the right mouthpiece and the right attitude and you can have it. I wonder if the sound-image in one's head is not given enough credit.

Absolutely! I think that we have a luxury issue here. How can we separate “being able to” and “having to”. If we have a Committee, how much of the sound is real and how much is in our imagination? Aren’t dreams sometimes self-serving? I think that on trumpet websites our voice is almost neglected compared to hardware. We really want to believe that a Committee is 50%+ of Miles or Tills “Voice”. I consider that insulting. Just think of all the notes that we did not get because of the things that a Committee did not do.

@djeffers78 Standard “problem” thread. What does best mean? Good enough? What definition of value do we declare? Resale value, acceptance by teachers, blend with other horns, bling factor for the student? The list goes on and on.

My point is that the term “BEST” is about the WORST description that there is. Because Monette is not Bach or Yamaha, would that be an off brand?

Are we looking in this thread for good value at a lowest price or innovation at any price? Are we considering dealer support? Financing possibilities?

I am actually allergic the the word “best” because it simply is not a factor, rather an opinion that is generally worthless.

Now, if we are looking for good deals for students, we need to be very clear about the advantages and disadvantages IF that student is going to music school. If we are considering vintage instruments, there may be a coolness factor but a big disadvantage in ensemble playing. Vintage instruments may need serious TLC to get the valves tight and slides working smoothly.

My students generally start with a Yamaha 3xxx or 4xxx model. Resale is great if they end up in sports programs. Performance makes life easy. Playing characteristics are sensational. Service in Germany is top notch - from the dealers AND Yamaha.

@SSmith1226 said in First Valve Slide and more:

Thanks for both of your opinions. Relative to the spacer suggestion, is it possible that the valves need an alignment?

Out of alignment valves cause more "focus" issues with the tone, not direct intonation problems.

@SSmith1226 The F being sharp is very unusual. E and D will be sharp and need a bit of correction. That being said, vintage instruments (the days before first valve slides) often had a slightly too long first valve slide. Someone that had habits from a vintage instrument can have acclimatisation issues when switching to a "new" horn. If it bothers you, there is nothing wrong with putting a spacer on the first valve so that it does not go all the way in.

@Bay-Area-Brass said in Kanstul -- Any News?:

@ROWUK Thanks for the reply-as for the classical world I'm not connected so I will take your word on that-I know that piccolo trumpets tend to be Schilke, at least in the US but I don't know what's most popular in regards to C trumpets (I've found outside of the Handcrafts, most Schilke models tend to play on the bright side). As for jazz soloists, the Xeno isn't used much (lead players yes). There are some Yamahas what are well suited for the jazz soloist and I see some of those. The reason I use the Schilke HC1 is because the bell flare and tapered leadpipe/tuning slide give it a nice buttery Committee like blow and feel but with better upper register and intonation. In commercial work I believe Xenos are more popular. I concur that Yamahas have a high standard in regards to build quality, intonation and blow. In the end it comes down to what suits you best. My post was state what I see among jazz and commercial players, and while I do see Yamahas, it certainly isn't the majority. Classical perhaps

Actually, I am very happy that the jazz world still is open to mixed sections and individualists. The US influenced classical world is Yamaha and Bach. In Europe, Yamaha has a very firm hold on the piston trumpet world.

@Kehaulani said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

@ROWUK That may be scientifically true, but don't most manufacturers make a difference in air/resistance in their construction based on bore size? I believe this is for for marketing and classification reasons?

Well, I don't know of many companies making small and medium bore instruments except as a specialty. In the case of Bach, the valve cluster on the ML and L are supposed to be the same. I consider the largest bore Yamahas to be the easiest to play efficiently (compared to the ML bore instruments). My "largest bore" Monettes used far less air than my ML instruments.

@Kehaulani said in Researching old instruments:

Isn't German Grün spelled Gruen in American?

Yes, it is. Dutch and German are related languages. The two dots above the vowel are translated with an additional e.
Ä=ae
Ö=oe
Ü=ue

Scandinavian languages also use the "umlaut".

I guess the anglicized versions can be considered dipthongs.

Saw the facebook entry. Lose the heavy caps and replace the leadpipe and receiver and the horn would be well on its way to at least being in tune. This problem pops up even with professional trumpets. Monke rotary Bb and C trumpets occasionally had the same issue. The G on my natural trumpet is "naturally a bit high". Not quite this much, but it does require attention on a regular basis.

@Kehaulani said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

@ROWUK said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

In theory, the trumpets are already full of air. We only need air to sustain the buzz and modulate it for sound quality and volume.

But doesn't a smaller bore instrument require less air to do that and wouldn't a smaller bore horn make putting the air into the horn more resistant, thereby requiring less air to put the embouchure into motion?

Giving the phrase, forgetting the scientific reasons, that the smaller horn requires less air and a large bore horn more?

Actually, no. The smaller bore does not need less air. The artisan building the horn can dial parameters in - almost at will. Less air is a function of a more efficient embouchure AND/OR a more efficient instrument/mouthpiece/embouchure. Roughly, the greater the difference between the mouthpiece throat and the bell size, the greater the efficiency. More efficiency means the instrument does more of the work BUT it may not feel easier to play if the player does not hear themselves as well or has the impression that air is backing up.

@Kehaulani Groen is actually dutch for green.