@chelpres said in Researching old instruments:
@Kehaulani I asked this same question of a German friend of ours ,who is prone to being pedantic on matters of language.
Her view was that it should be pronounced phonetically...booscher. Then again, there may be regional variations.
Regards, Tom
With the double o in Boosher being pronounced like in "good or wood". The german slightly nasal pronunciation cannot be replicated with english vowels.
Every generation has had their heros. In Bachs day it was the Haas, Ehe and Leichamschneider families, then came Michael Saurle at the turn of the 19th century.
After that we have Couesnon, Heckel, Distin and many others.
The 20th century brought Besson, White, Bach, Conn, Holton and later Selmer.
Many of you will have additional "heros". Kanstul did not make it because the business model was not sustainable without the myth Zig. The real problem is zero innovation. There was no reason to buy a Kanstul over a Bach, Yamaha, Jupiter, Getzen or other brand. Sure, they were well built and sounded OK, but that is not enough. If there had been innovation, they would have been snapped up - if nothing else for the patents (what patents?). Can you base a company on Martin Committee copies or a better Bach?
Look at the last 20 years. Yamaha has smoked Bach, Schilke and many other manufacturers. Many of the major symphony orchestra and jazz/studio musicians play Xenos. They are being used in places that no other manufacturers have been able to penetrate.
Who will miss the Kanstul brand in 10 years? Have you seen prices for used Kanstuls going up since they closed their doors?
@Kehaulani said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
I've read a bunch of threads on this and they all devolve into other factors. All I want to know are the playing differences between medium and large bore horns, i.e. flexibility, tonguing, and most of all, does a large bore horn actually require more air.
This question does not ask for any technical info like measurements, and does not ask about tone differences. Only, does a large bore take more air and are there any differences in articulation. Thanks a lot.
No, they do not. The blow of the horn is something much different. A vintage medium bore Bach Vindabona takes a LOT more air than my Bach CL229H ever did.
I never noticed any additional requirements for articulation.
There are easy blowing medium and hard blowing large bore horns and vice versa. I think that the major difference for blow and articulation is how we hear ourselves - which is a function of bell thickness and bracing.
@BigDub: Wooden mutes can be made easily just like the "Stone Lined" mutes are constructed. Using veneer to make the cone is easy, then a hardwood top. Corks come from wine bottles.
@BigDub Yes, I have a 3D printer and have printed over 50 good working mouthpieces (mostly natural trumpet and cornetto - but some "Monette" clones) - as well as a bunch of other stuff. Next project it to get the spherical 3d tweeter horns plugged into the audio system.
@J-Jericho Half of the fun is the positive comments from colleagues for the idea. The coke bottles are physically more stable than much of the competition. My favorite is the smaller 0.33 liter mute. In theory, this is an adaptation of the Renuzit mute.
@administrator said in DIY Practice mute out of PET Coke bottles:
Does it have to be "null zucker"?
For my type of playing for sure...
Here is a method of creating a cheap but effective practice mute. I saw this mute at the international Natural Trumpet Workshop near Basel 2 weeks ago, so I am just sharing/documenting the idea.
In Germany, we have 2 "single portion" types of Coke bottles. .33 liters or for the more thirsty, .5 liters.
Longer straw lengths do not reduce volume as much but are more free blowing. Too short lengths reduce volume but are very stuffy/fuzzy
@Kehaulani said in How do you feel about vibrato?:
Now that's what I was looking for, thanks, rowuk!
So, basically, discussing vibrato performance practices are the same as a Kenny G, thread on Sax on the Web.
I think that we have to be careful. All of my studies on Historically Informed Performances show that those who wrote books hundreds of years ago weren't always objective. We have to look at many different sides to get a picture that lets us make an educated guess.
I believe that there has ALWAYS been natural vibrato and only by force, can we limit it. The consummate trumpeter needs it all, but when I show up at the HIP gigs, the conductor determines what we do. I do not like confrontation during rehearsals - even if "he or she" calling the shots is NOT informed.
I am personally more interested in how vibrato was used as an ornament (instead of as a standard parameter of tone). Bach, for instance has several excerpts that imply a special tremolo or vibrato. They are written as a series of static notes (one pitch as 8th notes for instance - see Christmas Oratorio first Chorus B part for an instance) with a slur.
@Brian-Moon said in Is a $280 New Bach Stradivarius Trumpet too good to be true?:
For even while we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.
NOTICE:
This is not speaking of those that are not able to work. It speaks of those who are too lazy to work, which is where communism leads to because there is no incentive to work other than the minimum in order to stay out of trouble.
Actually, there is a problem with this. Many are willing to work but companies are punished (on the stock market) for investing in employees. Is the large group of automobile workers that got laid off at fault for bad mangement decisions resulting in bad sales? Is "new technology" killing traditional jobs?
What killed the instrument building companies in the states? What killed Kodak? What killed PanAm? Is it REALLY offshore manufacturing? Are the employees at fault when so many jobs are lost and nothing fills the gap? I think that we need to look more closely in the mirror and resist being manipulated by those seeking to divide.
@Dirk020 said in B&S Trumpets:
After reading so many hallelujah stories about B&S trumpets I had to give that brand a try.
Mod. 3137 Challenger I: Bach 180/37 copy. A well made horn, good valves but the sound didn't even come close to my old Elkhart Bach 180/37. Sold it to a German guy
Mod. MBX. 72-ish bell, ml. bore, l leadpipe and tuning slide. Good sounding horn but to me way too heavy. I traded this one in for a Yamaha 8130 Z. The latter was way easier to play for me
Mod. eXquisite Malcolm McNab. Copy of his old m-bore Vincent Bach Stradivarius. This one I ordered from Thomann; in 2009 they where the only shop who had them in stock. Beautiful made instrument but for me so hard to play that I was glad that I could return it. The m-bore Conn 22B 'Victor' turned out to be a way better match, that one I played for years until I exchanged her for a Getzen Eterna
At least I gave it a try but I.ll have to say that to me the B&S trumpets where one big disappointment
Actually, the analysis of what went wrong is a bit different. We are creatures of habit. If we have something much different than what we are used to, there is a necessary period to acclimate - which can be months. Naturally when we are looking for a new horn, this makes "change" not so easy or economically feasible. In this case you were disappointed - and understandably so, but at the end of the day we do not know if it was the instrument or an inner unwillingness to change. This is exactly the point that screws a lot of peoples lives up. Projection of fault. We do not know if a "problem" is hardware or software. To test this concept, take your best playing horn and play it in a church with good acoustics, in a bedroom, outdoors near a lake, in a bathroom and take notes about the blow and feel. It will be 4 different instruments - with the only difference how you hear yourself. Another test is to insert earplugs when playing - we hear ourselves worse and the trumpet gets "stuffier".
Now we can argue that an instrument with "inferior response" is not one that we should buy - but sometimes we are so influenced by the factor blow that we ignore many other parameters that could expand our playing. Anyone that tries a very heavy trumpet like a Monette or Harrelson needs time to get the ears and brain organised.
My personal rule of thumb is to never buy anything unless I can clearly and rationally define what is missing from what I am using. That guided me from Bach to Schilke and then finally Monette mouthpieces.
My trumpets each have a defined palette of colors for specific playing jobs.
@Kehaulani said in How do you feel about vibrato?:
I read about instrumental vibrato imitating the human voice, but who's to say that the voice used little or copious vibrato?
What the human voice does is often put into the context of modern reflection. But who is to say that vibrato is natural to the human voice?
Yes, vibrato is natural to the human voice. We can learn to control it. When I took voice lessons (first counter tenor then tenor), everything below let say mezzoforte was easy to control. At Puccini or Verdi orchestral levels, you have no choice.
Generally we can look at folk music for models. European, east european and asian folk music shows abundant use of vpcal and instrumental techniques. Old pipe organs have a stop "Vox Humana" (16th-18th century) which seeks to imitate vibrato. So even if we have informed historical performing practice with little or no vibrato, the organ builders told a different story.
Here is a good write up with a moderate view: https://www.earlymusicamerica.org/emag-feature-article/vibrato-wars/
@administrator Tuva Semmingsen sings Vivaldi!
@Kehaulani Vibrato became an issue when orchestras started playing more loudly. The model is the human voice and as long as we stay at historical "chamber" music levels, it is possible to sing with minimum vibrato. Approach operatic levels and there is no choice. As far as timetables go, the beginnings of recorded music shows use of substantial vibrato - check out the cornet recordings of Vincent Bach or Herbert Clarke. Vibrato a plenty was popular in American orchestras until the early 70s. Maurice André used more than noticable quantities - as did the trumpeters from the Philadelphia, Cleveland and Chicago symphony orchestras. Timofei Dokschitzer had a wonderful vibrato on just about everything that he played. Starting with the late 70s, the aestethics changed. Less became more.
To add a bit to my comment about cheap tools twice:
We ALWAYS have to consider what we are using the instruments for. An amateur in a town band will certainly have different NECESSITIES than the working pro. If I read the comments by many amateurs on the internet, I wonder how they really play. The comments do not match the requirements. Many times we have a luxury issue - more money than common sense. We cannot necessarily equate price with performance but there is a bottom line for quality.
At the end of the day, no one can answer the Bang for the Buck question for someone else. How much is pride in ownership worth? How much inspiration do we get from having something special in our hands? How many owners handicap themselves by believing the yarns that they spin.
What is "value"? Do we compare purchase price to what you can recover after 5 or 10 years?
I have always learned that we buy cheap tools twice.
I feel that the consummate trumpeter needs it all. They need to be able to play with and without it, they need hand, jaw and gut vibrato. Above all, they need the musical intelligence to know the difference.
Someone noticing "too much vibrato" means that the player does not understand their audience!
Let's get this "higher quality made in the US" notion out of our heads. Quality has NOTHING to o with location. Quality is a function of responsible decisions in the manufacturing process. America has NOTHING that would be decisive in higher quaity instruments. Every company decides how much "quality" goes into their products. In the case of chinese manufacturers, the importers placing the order decide how much "quality should be built and they get what they pay for.
As far as Americans out of work, that is how capitalism works. Money does not care if a specific group of people are employed. It only cares if anyone is left to buy the products.
The bore size of a trumpet is pretty much insignificant as a single parameter. There are bright and dark small and large bore trumpets, there are free blowing large and small bore trumpets. The achievable volume is not a function of the bore, rather the efficiency of the working system. We are not listening to an amplified buzz of the lips, rather a resonance (standing wave) in the horn. Due to a mismatch in the length of the horn and the bell shape, a small portion of that resonance “leaks” out. That is what we hear.
It is safe to say that most trumpet building companies do not have a specific sound color that they are building. They may have - by luck, found something that works and is saleable. Contrast this to the high end automobile industry where the sound of an exhaust system, slamming door, road noise leaking into the passenger area are all carefully engineered.
What is the common denominator of Schilke trumpets? I would say manufacturing quality, not a tonal characteristic. Bach is known for their core - something that has not changed or improved for decades. Yamaha on the other hand reinvented the trumpet sound with a Xeno. There is a characteristic tone through the whole range of those trumpets. The better Bachs from many companies also offer no real tonal advantage and those companies building them did not have tone as the goal, rather only sales.
In my world, next to Yamaha is Monette. He is not the Burger King of trumpets, you don’t get it your way. The trumpets have a characteristic sound that is consistent through ALL of the models.
There is plenty of room for innovation. We simply need to start asking the right questions and that starts maybe 50 feet in front of the horn. My first question would be “do trumpets need to be as loud as they are”. I believe that most modern trumpets have a dramatically comprimised tonal palette of colors due to the fact that they were built for louder. The first lawsuits have been won because of the damage that the brass intensity causes in orchestras. Can’t we get that glorious halo around the sound at a lower loudness? Most certainly - but not from companies selling bore size.
Many want simple answers to complex questions. That is normally a sign of something not good ahead. That is how politics work and we all know how that ends up.
