I have bought myself an alto trombone (another member of the trumpet family) for Christmas. As the playing register is similar to the trumpet, the mouthpieces are in sizes similar to the baroque trumpet, I thought that I would give it a go.
I will report on my progress. As I have some trumpet playing Advent and Christmas concerts still scheduled, I have not yet played it.
I would never oil the inside. Remember: valve oil is NOT food safe and if you oil the bore, you WILL breathe in the vapor.
Regular maintenance should include bathing the horn in proportion to how often it is played.
Supposedly WD40 is food safe and designed to displace water (WD=Water Displacement). That may be an option, but just as I prefer bathing myself, my horn certainly deserves regular attention too!.
With any vintage instrument it is a question of the true condition, how hard it was played previously and if it gets past these mechanical checks, if we can get the sound that we need.
Granted, there are people that get the warm fuzzies every time the word vintage falls. There it does NOT matter what a reality check is worth.
I would say that about half of the vintage instruments that I have ever played were not worth my time or effort. Pitch, intonation, valves and tone were simply not up to snuff. I have a lot of old instruments but they are ALL PLAYERS.
I do not consider the coprion bells to be special in any way except to the marketing departments. There are simply too many truly sensational instruments based on "standard techniques".
@Dr-GO said in Goodbye adjustable finger ring:
Freedom abounds with the Martin Committee. No ring needed. With its greasy ability for slotting, the third ring is obsolete. Check out the many pictures of Miles and Botti. You will note an absence of the third slide ring.
Maybe in a Jazz setting, but NEVER in a classical setting. Those centered, resonant low C# and Ds simply need to fit in the section sound and that does not work without mechanical adjustment.
@Richard-III I am not sure that we should move things so quickly. The human state for the most part is infinitely adaptable and there are A LOT OF PLAYERS young and old that play stock Bach Strads or Yamaha Xenos without mods.
The adjustable ring is yet another reason why student instruments do not respond as well as more "professional" ones. Play a series of octave slurs at medium loudness (especially second line G to top of stave) and you will notice a HUGE difference with and without the adjustable ring.
I have NEVER had a student that needed a ring in a different position. In the beginning the pinky goes in the ring and during puberty (when the third slide becomes more important) the ring finger. If the third slide is well maintained, both fingers work well enough!
While we are at it, we teachers have to insure that the valves are not held with a "grip of death", rather just squeezing enough for stability. This also improves response dramatically!
@barliman2001 I have been there and after 4 years, am almost back to where I was before. In my case, an accident knocked the 4 front jaw teeth loose beyond repair. In addition, that started a chain reaction that ultimately resulted in me losing all of my teeth. There seems to be bacteria in the mouth just waiting for trauma.
Dentures were the first step and I learned all about dental cremes and other methods to "glue" them in. I learned that a cup of hot coffee dissolved those dental adhesives, so my diet changed during that time too. As the dentures were pretty much the same as the teeth preceding them, my playing was stable. After the gums all healed (6 months), implants were the solution. After that, the geometry of the mouth changed only by microns, but it still was a very dramatic change and it took a year to get back on track. Fortunately, that was during the Covid pandemic so I did not disappoint any of the people that book me.
If you have any questions, let me know.
@Trumpetb This is my last comment to you:
The subject in this thread is very specific. Your (too) many words seem more like damage control than a better analysis.
I have said everything applicable and will not engage with you in completely unrelated issues.
You can try to bend my words, my meaning whatever, this is not my problem. It is obvious that you know better. What motivation you have to continue is of no interest to me. In my world, people that choose to ignore are "ignorant", meaning conciously choosing to ignore supporting facts. In earlier years, I in fact had a crusade against mouthpiece safaris that have ruined more players than ever helped. Just observing the used mouthpiece market it becomes apparent where the empty promises of range, endurance and sound are. I "saved" several students from this obsession.
It is VERY EASY to tell if an issue is the player or the equipment. The OPs description is perfectly adequate for my analysis and qualified suggestion. There are telltale signs indicating if there is something about a mouthpiece that is not optimal. None in this thread for the OP and none for you based on what you report about your own playing.
The most damaging advice for the question presented in this thread in my opinion is, "just try it". We have an acclimation period and as I said, that can be months. When playing around with our habits, certain controls MUST be met to have a qualified result.
Do not expect any further comments to your posting. It already has gone far beyond anything that I would normally even bother with.
One more snippet out of my lifes path:
The greatest liability to a rehearsal or performance, is the low to medium chops players showing up to a rehearsal with 4 or 5 trumpets and bragging about why each piece needs a different instrument or mouthpiece. This person has lost all connection to reality unless it is an ensemble specialized in period playing with the unlikely bad programming that needs so many instruments.
Now, granted, I have given recitals with the theme "history of the trumpet". In this case, I did have different mouthpieces for my rennaissance natural trumpet, early baroque natural trumpet, late baroque natural trumpet, early classical natural trumpet, classical keyed trumpet, classical valved trumpet, romantic era valved trumpet and then the historical instruments from the 20th century (1911 Holton Clarke model long cornet, 1936 Heckel rotary Bb trumpet). These instruments were played in a solo context to show what was common at the time of manufacture - not forced on an ensemble not capable of embracing and showcasing the specialties.
So, I have a lot of mouthpieces, but never talk about them as my use case is historical performing practice, not everyday community band stuff. For someone with difficulty with G#, a mouthpiece change is the worst advice that I could give
@J-Jericho Great article and many things that I did not know!
@SSmith1226 Nice review, but nothing controversial in my view.
@Trumpetb I understand you actually quite well. I also disagree with a lot that you post - because it all seems so random and not based on real experience. It is also very confusing considering that we have readers that can not tell the difference.
I disagree with "zeroing in" between mouthpiece and each horn - unless the mouthpiece has the same rim and cup and only minor shank work is necessary. Before my Monette period, I used the same mouthpiece on all my trumpets except for when I played lead. Monette builds Bb, C and Eb mouthpieces so I use the same size, cup and throat for all of those horns. Even the flugel and cornet mouthpiece have the same rim.
I would also disagree that mouthpieces GENERALLY change with style unless we are comparing lead to everything else.
We are creatures of habit and to get a stable base, we need to reduce our choices to optimize with the limited time that those of us posting here have.
If accuracy is a non issue for your playing, then the free for all is fine.
I do not need multiple mouthpieces for symphonic, chamber, commercial or big band (except lead). My chosen mouthpiece is dynamic enough in its behaviour that I do not experience problems that I can't fix just by practicing more.
Now, the bogus use of the word physics in this context is worth clarifying. IF high quality playing is critical, we actually have very few choices. We need very clear articulation, clear tone from low to high. We need a tone compatible with the section that we play in as well as great flexibility, security and good intonation. Please do not compare Till Brönner to Maynard Ferguson or Jean Francois Madeuf to Maurice Andre. They also have/had narrow choices that cover(ed) their specialized playing.
So, a lot of words around a very simple concept: jack of no trade and master of none. Creatures of habit need repetitions to develop a flexible tone covering many use cases. Creatures of habit need repetitions to build security and style. For players without a very strong foundation, changes are the primary cause of unreliability. Find the mouthpiece and practice routine that is the best compromise and stick with it.
Remember! this thread is about a player with an elusive high G# - so no lead, solo career, no historical performance practice or anything else with "special" hardware or non compatible tone. No hardware will solve this. It is mind over matter and perhaps Clarke is the answer, or maybe Schlossberg, for others it could just be getting too damn much pressure reduced a little bit.
@Trumpetb You argue about a large quantity of mouthpieces? Knowing that the human state is creature of habit, I would argue that you will NEVER get good enough to really tell the differences if you are constantly switching. I need 6 months with a mouthpiece to get really acclimated and have an opinion. That means 24 mouthpieces for me is 12 years. Considering that our bodies change about every 7 years, only a small portion of what we think that we have learned will stick and the great players are great because they leverage the habit. Random mixing, just mixes the face up and that produces random results.
In my 58 years of play I went from a Bach 1 1/2C (4 years) to a 1C (2 years), to a Schilke 18 (22 years), to a Monette B/C2 (30 years). I always had a "real" reason to change. The 1C was because I started playing in symphonies, the Schilke to improve intonation of my Bach CL 229H and the Monette because I switched to an Ajna2 (heavy Monette) trumpet with a large shank.
@Trumpetb We can learn from those before us or attempt reinvent the wheel. I am very much for leveraging what those far smarter than me have already figured out! It saves time and lets us get to the music much, much faster.
@Trumpetb I will heartily disagree with the mouthpiece having anything to do with a G#. In fact, with good habits, our range does not change much with mouthpiece rather our sound and expression. My range does not change with a 7C, my Monette 1-1 or my 10 1/2E for the picc. The picc sounds AWFUL with the 1-1!
Changing mouthpieces in my world is NEVER part of "basic habits" for reliable playing! The fewer changes from day to day, the greater consistency. Once we have an "abundance" of consistency, we can venture into more palettes of color.
That all being said, I did recommend an overdose of very, very quiet longtones and lipslurs. To enhance those exercizes, take a 10 minute hot shower right before hand to get as relaxed as possible. To not use the tongue to get the tone started - just exhale into the tone or slur. Read the circle of breath first.
@Trumpetb said in 1970 Bach 43 elusive high G#:
Make ROWUKs words your bible. This last post by him is gospel if ever there was a trumpet gospel.
Yes to "What is appropriate is whatever works"
Yes to " My goal is not a six-pack in our face and an industrial level compressor with the lungs"
These are the golden nuggets that we should use as a foundation to our beliefs.
Add to that others great advice such as "All we have is our sound" always always always work on your tone make it the most beautiful humanly possible by using ROWUKS words "What is appropriate is whatever works"
Read every other post of ROWUK the man knows what he is talking about.
I have reached many of the same conclusions as he states in here but it has taken me a very long time to reach that position.
Read absorb digest his words and become all the better as a performer for the doing of that.
Thanks for the flowers, but I stand on the shoulders of giants. Nothing I post is originally mine. It is all part of Arban, Irons, Stamp, Schlossberg, St. Jacome, Clarke and many others as well as practicing things like meditation, yoga and Feldenkrais.
I firmly believe that every person has a "different" entry point and finding that is my #1 priority when starting a student. Building vocabulary is the #2 step. Learning what I mean by integration is the critical part. As babies, we do all of the basics of posture, motion and breathing naturally. Once we start going to school, we start to lose these abilities and "break" our bodies in small steps. By the time we get to high school, we slouch, have back and neck tension as well as many other symptoms of our "bad behavior". Some people start to excercise, get therapy, turn vegan in hopes that things will get better. They seldom do because the "core evil" is not the symptom of pain or decreased ability to move, it is a learned reduction in integration of mind and body. That in turn leads to many pathological things.
In my view, when we are looking for a solution to something, we must identify the "root evil". As everybody with upper back pain has learned, treating the pain by massage or medicine is at best a very temporary reduction. Getting the coordination of the skeleton, muscles and mind back would be the best solution, but what specialist can you go to that offers that type of integration? In traditional medicine, there are basically none and Yoga as it is most commonly practiced, is a sports activity not a holistic thing. Many of the best other possibilities are considered too esoteric and therefore, we are all stuck with whatever ails us.
My approach to teaching trumpet is by integration. We need to leverage at the most basic level to be able to build good habits. Neck tension could kill a lesson on double or triple tonguing. Emotional tension severely limits our ability to turn airflow into music.
We are creatures of habit and our development is based on a system of rewards. That is why I say what works is the first definition of appropriate. Accomplishment->Satisfaction->Desire to repeat. This is how embouchure pressure develops. In our early developmental stages, pressure works and encourages further similar behavior. Replacing that with something that in the end MAY be better, is difficult because when trying to change habits, we have many things competing in our brains. Many times we only have lessons in the part of the year where we are performing. That means that we need to focus on what works, we have no time for addressing deeper issues that get worse before they get better!
So, if there were any words that I think would be most helpful, they are not for the physical level, they would deal with the mind and leveraging our reward system. If a high G# is hard, then do not keep trying to "hit it". Leave it alone for 4 weeks and build supportive habits (integration breath and embouchure) that ultimately could uncap blockage for an octave more than that. That is not 3 posts and an online 30 minute lesson.
Let us not forget that there ARE many "students" that benefit from dominating teachers. Some people actually "beg" for this dominance (not just in the trumpet world). For the rest of us, we generally get lucky and find someone where the "chemistry" lines up or at least where personal motivation is possible.
I basically disagree with most of the online schemes as I need a better picture of what the whole body is doing. I do not want to reduce the efforts of online teachers to a practice monitor, but my experience shows a predominance of exactly that. Integrating body use, breathing, technique and musical expression is a HUGE thing and working with people that have not had structure is an even bigger deal. It takes (too much) time just to find a common vocabulary!
At the end of the day, we match expectations with results and the real scammers are those willing to just take the money and run after blaming the students for the rest...
As far as responding to teachers like this. I am most satisfied with NOT FEEDING THE TROLLS. I do not engage them, I do not seek satisfaction by having the last word. At Trumpetmaster, I gave them a vacation if they turned the heat up online (Kurt Thompson comes to mind).
My answer would be: "after considering all of the options, I have come to the understanding that our goals do not line up. Thank you for your patience." Then I block the e'mail address to prevent further "itch to respond".
@JWM said in 1970 Bach 43 elusive high G#:
@ROWUK Too much pressure is surely part of my problem. I’ve made progress in posture, inhale and “exhaling”. I find that I must change my lip position and trumpet position to generate a note. Is that appropriate?
What is appropriate is whatever works. "More" appropriate are the things that most likely prevent failure in the future. If you have summer band concerts, it is tough to make changes and maintain any specific level of playing.
I do not advocate changing the position of the mouthpiece while playing. If we are practicing enough of the right things, lip flexibilities/lip slurs will provide all of the embouchure tension skills that we need. Getting rid of Armstrong is usually the biggest challenge. As I previously wrote: "A buzz is nothing more than the lips opening and closing at a certain frequency. If we apply large amounts of arm pressure to the embouchure, we need far more air pressure to blow the lips apart. That is not a very responsive system!" This means that better breathing does not fix ANYTHING if it is not coupled to embouchure habits. In my world, breathing is an integral part of the embouchure and should be practiced in context (an example is the "circle of breath"). My goal is not a six-pack in our face and an industrial level compressor with the lungs. It is fine motor activity of the embouchure balanced by "just enough" air pressure.
Remember, humans are creatures of habit and we are what we repeatedly do! This is why lessons with a qualified teacher are so important - to build a consistent foundation and confidence in that process. It takes thousands of repetitions for something to become a habit. I have met students however, that have a natural talent for structure. They do not need as much "nudging" as others that have to work very hard for everything.
Practicing in an unstructured way builds habits too - unreliability, uncertainty and frustration.
@JWM The #1 reason for range just stopping at a specific note is too much damn pressure.
A buzz is nothing more than the lips opening and closing at a certain frequency. If we apply large amounts of arm pressure to the embouchure, we need far more air pressure to blow the lips apart. That is not a very responsive system!
In my view, the easiest way to break this habit is to turn the testosterone down. Play ONLY very, very softly for a couple of weeks and focus on the air doing the work. Overdose on pianissimo lipslurs and long tones. Practice to get the sound to start on a wisp of air.
Generally, it takes only a lesson or two to get students doing this reliably. The biggest problem with a social media recommendation is that body use can not be controlled. If someones body is twisted into knots, a big relaxed breath is a challenging thing. Exhaling also becomes a real chore.
My full view is in several posts that I made called "the circle of breath". This is a collection of things from many disciplines. Google it and if there is something unclear, just ask.