Posts made by ROWUK

Moderation is in fact a double edged sword. On the one side, posting shows us the character of the poster - a measure by which we can decide what is worth reading. Postings also generate context that gets lost when things disappear. I agree that the best way is to "edit" the offense, clearly label the edit with the name of who edited and why. Deleting complete posts is on occasion necessary because of the content.

My experience at TrumpetMaster with PMing offenders was not generally positive (exceptions proving the rule). For someone with no sense of what freedom of speech costs, you cannot teach them this online. Often it is better to part ways.

After TrumpetMaster went down (with no warning or first hand information to this date), I reviewed my online activity and decided that I would not jump in to any new forum with the same "attitude". Some here surely welcome this. To be honest, I have found no trumpet forum where I "take home" as much as I invest. There are other forums where we stretch the envelope however. The mix of users is different, with less casual approaches to the technology. This is where my energy is going these days. Here, I am very content to browse and occasionally post - without repeating myself as much as I did at TrumpetMaster. I also seem not to be the focus of hate anymore (regardless of the underlying reasons).

In this respect, I too am a bit frustrated, but that is my problem where the trumpet is concerned. I am less interested in entertainment and more interested in what motivates players to take that "next step".

Fortunately, I have no site issues with MacOS and Safari. I am happy that someone decided to run and offer the TMers a new home.

@Jolter said in Tone Centering for Trumpet (Centering & Tuning) Part III:

Thanks for posting this thread! I found the link very informative and it helped me with how to think about (and visualize) slotting. The discussion has been slightly less educational but only slightly so.

One thing that bugs me about the article is that if you come at it from a scientific (or in my case, engineering) perspective, that figure is extremely confusing at first. Only after a while did I understand what it was supposed to illustrate: how the Y axis means pitch, yet the orange surface area indicates the amount of overtones. To an engineer, those two values do not belong in the same diagram...

@Trumpetsplus said in Tone Centering for Trumpet (Centering & Tuning) Part III:

Not a fan of recreational (part-time) trumpet players indulging in deliberately avoiding the resonance of their instrument. I have a colleague who bends notes so often in his public warmup that he is unable to start any note in tune. Blog on this coming up in the next week or so.

I think I saw an interview (old stuff, 80's) with Håkan Hardenberger where he describes doing severe pitch bends (downward) as part of his practice routine. I don't recall if it was part of the warmup or not, but I think it was supposed to help with embouchure development somehow. I've only seen one or two people doing it, in person, but there seems to be some sort of "method" to it.

Yes, there is some method to it - for people that practice as much as Håkan does. The problem is that we are supposed to train fine motor capability at any level. Moving on to advanced concepts without the foundation builds a contraproductive six pack with our face muscles!

@OldSchoolEuph said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

It amazes me how much of this thread seems to equate energy required to produce a given dynamic with "takes more air". Seems like just another discussion of "resistance" in many respects.

When it come to actual fluid flow, there are two factors. For the equipment, the mouthpiece throat determines flow at a given pressure. The bore simply cannot be relevant because it is not the venturi. The other point at which flow can differ is the embouchure, with some folks needing more flow through to vibrate as greater energy into the horn is required to produce the desired result. At some point, these will come into conflict if the player is too inefficient in their part, and the pressure in the cup will exceed what the orifice at its base can flow, resulting in leaks around the edge.

But when a horn "takes more air", it is because we opt to increase the embouchure flow rate as a means of stepping up energy input to the horn, not because of some vacuum to fill with a 0.003" larger diameter tube. (Bach ML to L)

Word!

Playing on the resonant center is at least the most efficient way to play. The problem is that we trumpeters do not play „well tempered“! An E in a C Major, A Major or F#7 all are different frequencies. That means that we are always adjusting - some. We do not have regulation for the second valve, so have to accept some non centered playing. Many trumpets also have intonation issues.

Fortunately, fine trumpets do not have knife edge slots so we can manage and still get great tone. Monette talks a lot about pitch center and how we muscle our bodies to correct design faults and other bad habits. I have done a lot of the things that he recommends and can say that the journey involves more than the resonant center of the instrument. We have to reduce body tension in a serious way to really benefit from the resonant center.

I remember reading about Schilke trying out lead, glass and other stuff for bell material. I remember the quotes about overtones. My own tests have shown a lot of this to be myths. As fine as the Schilke trumpets are, I never understood the need for Renolds „exaggerations“ (not just with the bell myths). I have played and measured plastic, wood, carbon fiber, pure silver, bronze, brass, copper, concrete and glass. The overtones on ALL OF THEM were the exact same frequencies, just varying in amplitude a bit. The shape played the biggest role in the tone. The biggest challenge with the instrument is how we hear ourselves. The thickness and temper of the bell as well as the bracing control what we hear and how our ears and brain react. The harder it is to hear ourselves, the more we think that we need more air.

I play long tones first with no attack. The horn should speak on a whisp of air in all necessary registers. Then I check intervals to see if the entire system is in tune with itself. I do not play long passages, rather only short things that I have prepared well. Nothing to show off. Normally, I have a reference instrument with me to keep me grounded and open minded.

In a store or someones house, I have no chance to test "projection" or "power" so I don't. If there is a church or reasonably sized hall with good acoustics. near by, I try to take it there to test how well I hear myself when playing as well as other things needing space.

I always have a trusted second set of ears to also judge from the receiving end.

@Kehaulani
The lips need "air" to float on. The horn takes care of the "sympathetic" vibrations. The "problem" is that when we play higher and louder we need a mechanism - that is lip tension. To compensate for that increased tension, we must blow harder to keep the lips in a suspended state where they vibrate sympathetically.

Perhaps it is useful to think about the lips not as a vibrating "reed", rather a "massive" damping unit with a soft/flexible surface. When we buzz, we simply match pressure and tension. The lips open and close like a switch.

Laurie Frink
Liesel Whitaker
Ingrid Jensen
Valaida Snow
Bria Skonberg
Kiku Collins

Let‘s not talk about gender, rather what makes any particular player special. This is my second shortlist. Any ideas why I listed these people?

My response was not pointed at anyone specifically, rather it was intended to encourage reflection. If we look in the mirror, we realize that we „expect“ a lot from our tax dollars but when it comes to accountability, we are very selective. We have options for replacing brass with lead. The factoid that there are „toxic“ plastics is just another distraction from the issue. To be honest, not much intelligence is required from politicians or manufacturers to solve this issue. Less factoids, more common sense.

@Pinstriper said in Lead found in brass horn mouthpieces:

@ROWUK said in Lead found in brass horn mouthpieces:

This is all fine and good, but is the excuse - other things are bad for you too the right argument? Even if a mouthpiece is plated, is what we "think" or "assume" even asked for. We have a lot of Americans believing anything that they want to - from guns to global warming. It is hard to find enough facts outside of the emotion and populist BS being spread thick.

California did not dream lead poisoning up. They announced levels for legislation long before the laws took effect. That is an OK process in my book. It is also what I expect from a reasonable functional government. Don't clobber overnight, give the industries time to adjust. If they sleep on this, goodbye - or move out of state and don't sell in California. Make the Californians travel to Tijuana if they disagree with the policy.

I was merely offering a counterpoint to the view that plastic was presumed to be safe. It depends on the plastic.

Whether a particular political body ignores the science and "finds" something to be so, that may not be, is its own phenomenon. As far as reasonable sounding regulation goes, anyone in the environmental sciences or compliance field knows all too well that in order to be in compliance with one standard, you have to violate another, and so you decide which fine to pay.

Not all plastic is safe. Not all brass is toxic.

Carol Dawn Reinhardt
Susan Slaughter
Ingrid Jensen
Gunhild Carling

Forget all the blonde beauties. Not my cup of tea.

This is all fine and good, but is the excuse - other things are bad for you too the right argument? Even if a mouthpiece is plated, is what we "think" or "assume" even asked for. We have a lot of Americans believing anything that they want to - from guns to global warming. It is hard to find enough facts outside of the emotion and populist BS being spread thick.

California did not dream lead poisoning up. They announced levels for legislation long before the laws took effect. That is an OK process in my book. It is also what I expect from a reasonable functional government. Don't clobber overnight, give the industries time to adjust. If they sleep on this, goodbye - or move out of state and don't sell in California. Make the Californians travel to Tijuana if they disagree with the policy.

I think that the cat and mouse have shown both sides. I believe that there are many paths to Rome. I have stopped using the word "buzz" to stay out of discussions just like this - surely splitting hairs, but simply describing "ignition" to get the standing wave in the horn going. Without it, we are just blowing air through a tube. It is not possible to play a tone without the lips being ignited. They open and close like a switch in harmony with a multiple of the resonant frequency of the horn. The more supple the lip and embouchure, the easier that it is to play.

Now, we all know that embouchure changes (jaw position belongs to that) are a dangerous thing for most as there is no applicable reference for success. In my small world, embouchure changes are more luck than skill. That is why I prefer evolution to revolution. I do not ask (or care) the player if they phoo, BRRR or ZZZZ. They play long tones with NO ARTICULATION. The lips must ignite on a whisp of air. I try and stabilize the geometry regardless how it lies. Then the player gets a steady diet of long tones and lip slurs to build and strengthen. Once the art of creating sound is stable, we add microscopic amounts of articulation to chop the tone into intelligible pieces. This is like learning to talk and in my international experience is VERY tied to the players mother tongue.

Now, moving the jaw could very much change the playing field from downstream to upstream with dramatic changes to the geometry of playing. I know many upstream players with great high chops, but also know enough downstream players that also are not slouches (do we change embouchures for any other reason?). I have not investigated this deeply. Those students that come to me for lessons get the evolution routine regardless of what they bring to the table. Some fly with it, others just get more stable.

Now, one word of warning. I learned first hand at TrumpetMaster that pedantic, repetitive posting never results in anyone taking ones side. Generally the target audience just goes away shaking their heads. Sometimes passion is too close to politics or religion (with a small R).

The problem here is that government as usual does not consider solutions other than "stop it". To be fair, the "no lead" legistlation had plenty of time given to manufacturers who simply dropped the ball by not taking the warning shots seriously. Perhaps early in the process, alternatives could have been considered by politicians - but where was the "good faith" on either of the sides. It is yet more proof: If you do what you are supposed to, when you are supposed to, you won't have to when you have to.

California takes a lot of hits for such legislation, I am not sure that it is justified.

Looking at mouthpieces, we have plastic, ceramics, titanium and surgical stainless readily available, machinable and working. What is the beef?

Great collection of ideas. The Institut Wiener Klangstil in Vienna did a study on the effects of mouthpiece backbore, throat, cup width and depth where we can add or subtract up to 15 cents in specific registers. They did not address the changes in tone when changing those aspects of the mouthpiece. We also have Dave Monettes mouthpieces that also considerably deviate from more "standard" types. Here we also have up to 15 cents plus and minus deviation.

I think that this is reason to study and document the effects more closely. I recently bought a new natural trumpet and tested it with several mouthpieces and there were some strong tendencies - the lower the pitch, the further apart the octaves - requiring body use to play in tune (pivot, upper body tension, manipulation of the airflow or tongue position).

Please remember that we are creatures of habit. For valid testing, we need several attempts (much more than 3 or 4).

In my world, we are creatures of habit. I am convinced that the „where“ is secondary, what we need is „stable“. This gives us a reliable target for development.

Recently, I have been spending a lot of time on the natural trumpet. The mouthpiece there is huge(19.5mm) and the proportion of upper to lower lip far different than with my „modern“ trumpets. This seems to be insignificant for playing. We just need a very stable base in everything that we do.

Generally, embouchure questions only come up when something is not working. There seems to be the blind assumption that we change one thing and are cured. This has NEVER worked. In my teaching, body use and breathing come first, then a relaxed exhale into the note. We build stability over time by strengthening the foundation and not moving too fast to get an octave more in 4 weeks before an audition. The attitude about preparation is the biggest reason that we get into trouble. We need to play things out of our scope because we did not improve the scope when we should have.

Generally, a good program with lipslurs can improve the embouchure by evolution instead of cold turkey revolution.

A good practice routine is something that does not necessarily make me feel good. It is a serious collection of things that make the player „better“. Routine for me is not the same thing every day either. If I have gigs with more extended upper range requirements, I do range exercizes every second day or so. Technical studies I often treat the same way.

What is most important to me is the frame of mind, the idea of not wasting a note, containing lesser controlled behaviour. If I am on a run with great results in a specific area, I allow myself to keep moving in that direction instead of being submissive to a recipe.

I do have some basics that I do play every day. That is far from the complete daily pensum however. The daily stuff I call „circle of breath“. It is posted elsewhere here.

When our range stops at a specific note (especially if we can name it), our problem is simply too much pressure. We squeeze the lips off and they are not free to vibrate. Unfortunately, we are creatures of habit and with too much pressure comes a whole army of body use and breathing issues.

The success stories of turning range around are basically monitored by teachers sensitive to the subject. I use primarily Clarke and Irons for myself and my teaching.

@tjcombo I use drones. It simply keeps intonation on the map when practicing. A 6th in C major is much different than the third in F!

@Kehaulani If that was the goal, they failed miserably. I consider them to be light years apart on blow, core and tone.

@Kehaulani said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

Science aside, , I wonder if instrument makers don't use the bore sizes as matters of classifications, within their own relative results. That horns aren't built with certain characteristics that fall within the bore-size classifications. And these characteristics apply to these given classifications regardless of how it's done?

Man, that's hard to express what I want to say! My point is that, within a given make, do the terms include certain characteristics that show the results and not necessarily the how.

So, if I buy a medium-bore Getzen and a large-bore Getzen, and a medium-bore Schilke and a large-bore Schilke, will the medium-bore horns be have certain characteristics that separate them from their large-bore counterparts?

This was certainly the way that they were built before the Xeno (with the exception of the Bach ML Vindabona). If you want to reduce the amount of „air“ required in a large bore Bach, remove the bell brace next to the tuning slide. Optionally, one could purchase the models with a reversed tuning slide. There the brace is closer to the valve block. More energy escapes through the bell, we hear ourselves better. We fool ourselves into believing that we need less air.

One more time: moving air is ONLY necessary to get the lips vibrating and lubricate them so that the standing wave can be maintained. We are NOT talking about the physical act of filling a trumpet up with air (it is already full) or about fluid dynamics blowing air through a specific pipe size.

If we want to measure how much air the trumpet needs (or better, how inefficient our embouchure is), hold long tones out. Write down when you run out of air. Repeat 25 times for statistical relevance and then try the next instrument.