Old vintage maintenance.Conn

[Anthony Lenzo]

Does adding a drop of valve oil Hetman's
Classic #3 protect the lead pipe from.red rot My trumpet is from 1923 .

[Anthony Lenzo]

@Anthony-Lenzo it's a Conn vintage plays well.

[Jolter]

Hey there!

I've heard people mention oiling the leadpipe for this particular reason, but I've never put much stock in it myself. Red rot is a form of corrosion. There are apparently still competing theories exactly how it happens, but everyone seems to agree it is caused by exposing the metal to a slightly acidic environment over a long period of time. Ergo, the best way to preserve brass should be to keep it clean and dry when in storage. If you have acidic saliva or sweat, you run greater risk of red rot, but it should be very possible to mitigate it by simply cleaning it more often than others.

If you're really worried about this antique, maybe do a leadpipe swab after each play session, followed by a wipe down with a soft cloth. No horn will rot if it's clean and dry.

I suppose the argument for oiling would be that the film of oil will stick to the inside surface and prevent acid (hydrophilic) solutions from sticking there. I don't know if there's anything to that theory, but my experience as a mechanic says that if you add oil to any place that's exposed to air, that surface will start collecting particles (dust). And once you have particles stuck on a surface, those particles will absorb humidity, which means you now have an oily, dirty and wet surface. I'd say that's a red rot waiting to happen right there.

An engineer would say: lubrication goes directly on bearing surfaces and nowhere else in the machine. Other surfaces should be clean and dry.

All this said, I don't swab my leadpipe. I do empty out all slides when I get home after a rehearsal or gig, and there's usually plenty in there once the cold night air has condensed the humidity out of the last breath I left in there. I clean as often as the next guy (every few months). I always rinse out my mouth or brush me teeth before playing. Never suffered red rot in one of my horns yet.

Certain models seem very prone to red rot. Kanstul "Besson Meha", older Benges, the Yamaha Miyashiro model, for instance. You might have to be extra careful around one of those.

[Anthony Lenzo]

@Jolter I never thought it was a good idea for one of the reasons you stated " that dust and dirt particles can accumulate to
the oil.I swab my lead pipe before putting my trumpet away too.Thank you for your reply Anthony

[J. Jericho]

I have found that oiling the leadpipe results in diluting the tuning slide grease in short order. Clean and dry is the better solution, IMO.

[Dale Proctor]

Those old Conn trumpets have a sleeve over the leadpipe, so you’ll never see red rot on the outside of one. The only way to see it is by pulling the tuning slide out and looking inside the leadpipe for hard, crusty spots that are slightly elevated.

[Dave Wondra]

Another approach is to spray some 90% + rubbing alcohol on your swab prior to pulling it through your leadpipe (daily).

[Kehaulani 0]

Scientifically, I can't answer your question. But, practically, I oil my valves by putting oil into my leadpipe and blowing it through my horn and in half a century, I've never had a horn with red rot. This is in a range of horns from brand new to the turn of the 1900s.

[Trumpetb]

Interesting comments about the causes of red rot

My understanding is this, and I am not claiming to be an expert, however I have worked in construction engineering, automotive engineering, and several other engineering disciplines. My last role was as a principal engineer.

As we move a brass instrument from a cold environment into a warm environment and breathe into it as we play the moist air from our lungs is brought in contact with the inner surface of the instrument.

This can cause condensation and the closest area to the mouthpiece is the mouthpipe.

The mouthpipe then gathers the most condensation.

If the player has not brushed their teeth before playing then particles of food from the last meal accompany the moist air into the instrument.

The mouthpipe is then covered in a coating of moisture plus some food debris.

Brass is a mixture of copper and zinc with a very small amount of lead added.

Zinc is soluble in water, lead also is soluble in water.

The debris from the mouth carries with it droplets of saliva from the mouth. Saliva is slightly alkaline.

Water with alkaline forms an electrolyte as does water with acid and electrolytes support the electrolytic corrosion of metals.

What happens next is small microcurrents are created within the droplets of water sitting in the electrolytes on the inner surface of the brass of the mouthpipe and electrolytic corrosion begins.

This electrolytic corrosion breaks down the brass mixture into its individual elements parts of copper zinc and lead.

Now we have the perfect conditions for erosion of the brass.

The microcurrents attacking the brass liberate zinc from the metal and the zinc enters the electrolyte as dissolved zinc.

Then the action of physically cleaning the mouthpipe cleans away the electrolyte the debris and the dissolved zinc.

All that is left behind is brass with microholes where the zinc used to be.

This is a long process that takes decades for the holes to migrate completely through the brass and the holes in the brass slowly migrate deeper into the brass until appearing as holes in the external surface of the brass surrounded by darker copper.

The characteristic appearance of red rot is then present, several small holes in yellow brass with each hole surrounded by red copper.

In my mind there is no doubt and no uncertainty.

Moisture plus accreted debris if allowed to remain clinging to the internal surface of the instrument will result in red rot.

Frequent internal cleaning of the mouthpipe will remove the condensation, the debris, and the electrolytes and stop red rot dead..

Internal oiling of the mouthpipe holds the promise that a coating of oil would prevent the moisture from reaching the brass and therefore the electrolytic action that decomposes brass and results in red rot will be stopped.

I recommend research on dezincification of brass in water

I also recommend research on the solubility of lead in water

There are many documents revealing evidence of the dissolving of both Zinc and of Lead in water.

Water is called the universal solvent.

[Richard III]

In 60 years of playing, I've never seen red rot. Some of my horns are well over a hundred years old. I don't swab or put oil down the lead pipe. I rarely give my horns a bath. If they get gunky, I'll then do the bath thing.

So that brings up a question, how common really is it for those of you that have had the problem?

[Trumpetb]

@Richard-III

Hi Richard

In answer to your question I have seen it a few times.

An old Conn 80a had a lot of rot in the leadpipe but was still playable and still is.

An older Besson New Creation trumpet was riddled with it and the mouthpipe had to be replaced.

I dont think either of them was maintained or cleaned properly by any of their owners before me.

Both of these came to me in very poor condition.

It is my belief that responsible owners who perform good maintenance such as yourself and most of our members will be unaffected.

However there is a caveat.

Some manufacturers instruments have a reputation of being affected by red rot more than others.

The proportions of Zinc to Copper in the mix appears to affect the resistance to red rot. There does appear to be a sweet-spot for percentage Zinc to Copper in the brass that leads to higher resistance.

Conn appear to have a poor reputation for vulnerability to rot. That however may simply be speculation

My opinion is there are too many variables, too few examples, and little or no information on past maintenance regimes to draw meaningful conclusions about resistance to red rot.

The problem is, there is a huge variety of maintenance it is either over applied or under applied.

For example on oiling valves some players appear to believe that one drop of oil per month on valves is sufficient others believe 30 drops a day are necessary

On internal cleaning some believe that internal cleaning is largely unnecessary, others believe that an instrument should be cleaned internally every day it is played.

With such a variety of maintenance how can we draw any conclusions about instruments reliability.

Sachmo reputedly flushed water through his instrument every single evening.

Should we all do this.

I welcome members experiences in this area but can I ask that they also include notes indicating their cleaning regime and the make of the instrument so we can link susceptibility to the rot with cleaning regimes and the make of instrument.

[ROWUK]

I would never oil the inside. Remember: valve oil is NOT food safe and if you oil the bore, you WILL breathe in the vapor.

Regular maintenance should include bathing the horn in proportion to how often it is played.

Supposedly WD40 is food safe and designed to displace water (WD=Water Displacement). That may be an option, but just as I prefer bathing myself, my horn certainly deserves regular attention too!.

[Dale Proctor]

@Richard-III said in Old vintage maintenance.Conn:

In 60 years of playing, I've never seen red rot. Some of my horns are well over a hundred years old. I don't swab or put oil down the lead pipe. I rarely give my horns a bath. If they get gunky, I'll then do the bath thing.

So that brings up a question, how common really is it for those of you that have had the problem?

I’ve never owned an instrument that developed red rot, and I’ve played a couple of them for 40 years now, and a third one for 20 years. And, I am pretty lax about cleaning them as often as I should. Maybe the brass used was resistant to it, but I suspect a large part of the red rot problem is just a high level of acidity in the owner’s saliva, with a lack of horn cleanliness just being a contributing factor. We’ve all seen people whose hands quickly eat through the exterior finish on a trumpet and then attack the brass underneath, while other people don’t have that problem. I’d guess it’s the same thing with saliva - some peoples’ saliva corrodes brass, and others’ saliva doesn’t.

I own a couple instruments that do have red rot, but they already had it when I bought them. The rot is an aesthetic blemish right now, but I’ll probably be 6 feet under before there are actually any holes in the leadpipes.

[Trumpetb]

I respectfully disagree ROWUK

There have been a lot of advances in oil refining methods and the oil industry is now very complex in the range of products available today.

Some oils are food safe.

Many oils however as you say are not food safe.

Caution is advised.

White oils for example are food safe and some can be used as valve oil. I have tested white oils and found them to be quite safe. The problem they have is generally one of viscosity.

Food grade white oil tends to fall around ISO 15 which is a medium to thick valve oil. Viscosity of white oils does vary.

Additionally viscosity ratings are not generally published so we cannot be sure of the viscosity of any oil on general sale.

Traditional oils based upon paraffins have indeed caused serious medical conditions when ingested, these volatile oils hit the trachea oesophagus and stomach and the heat of the body causes them to evaporate. The fumes can enter the lungs and coat the surface of the alveoli preventing oxygen from entering the bloodstream.

Asphyxiation can follow.

However some oils are refined more than once and are food safe. I have personally drunk a sample of one of these oils to demonstrate that it is food safe and I suffered no ill effects.

Other oils are food based and are eco friendly.

One example is Monster Oil EcoPro Valve Oil, this is said to be 100% plant-based, is extremely long-lasting, very fast, and virtually odorless.

The threat to health is based upon high volatility and high vapour pressure. High vapour pressure means it evaporates easily.

The Monster Oil would be odourless because it does not evaporate easily.

I have not tested a sample of the Monster oil so I cannot attest to its safety. I suspect it is quite safe to use in the mouthpipe or leadpipe of an instrument.

I have taken a sample of a food safe oil used for valve lubrication and attempted to light it for several minutes with a naked flame and it refused to burn.

The traditional oils such as paraffin and paraffin based oils have high vapour pressure and burn easily and immediately.

We are very lucky to have very modern oils with low viscosity and low vapour pressure that are far safer than the more traditional paraffin based oils.

They do however cost considerably more to produce.

[Dr GO]

Any oil has risk, even those sold at vap shops for "pleasure". From the American Lung Association:

Essential Oil Health Claims- Fact or Fiction?
Be cautious about broad health claims about essential oils. Scientific research on the efficacy and safety of essential oils for specific health conditions is limited and more evidence is needed. Some research even shows adverse health outcomes from essential oil use. For example, a 2022 study of 200 individuals demonstrated the negative association between the use of essential oils and cardiopulmonary health. Study participants who inhaled essential oils one hour or more each day had increased heart rate and blood pressure and a decreased lung function rate.

Aromatherapy is one of the oldest and most common uses of essential oils. Much of the research published on the benefits of aromatherapy focuses on the use of a single essential oil. However, in aromatherapy, essential oils are frequently used together. There is limited research on the combinations of essential oils, interactions between the chemicals, impacts on medications and impacts on health. It is well known that when some VOCs are combined, secondary pollutants such as formaldehyde (a known nose, throat, and lung irritant) may be produced.

Though some essential oils, such as tea tree oil, have antimicrobial properties, the benefits are minimal. Research suggests that the antimicrobial effect of essential oils could only be found during the first 30-60 min after the evaporation began. This was especially in the case of tea tree oil and means that continued use or diffusion for the purpose of disinfection is ineffective.

And for the comment to prevent red rot, research as quoted above disproves that theory. I have in the past diagnosed 2 patients, one 18 years old and another 21 years old with pulmonary hypertension and right sided heart failure attributed to vaping.

So I side with Rowuk. No benefit and possible risk. Please do not run valve oil down the lead pipe.

[Dr GO]

More specifically, here is Ultra-Pure comment on risk specific to valve oil:

Ultra-Pure Professional Valve Oil is made of synthetic oils and is considered to be safe for its intended use as a lubricant for brass instruments. It is colorless and has no noticeable odor. It is non-flammable, non-combustible, and safe to bring on airplanes with other liquids or to ship by airmail without restrictions. Ultra-Pure Oils products do not react with metals, do not cause corrosion and do not form sticky residues.

Ultra-Pure Professional Valve Oil is not intended for any other use and is not intended for extreme high temperature or other unusual environments. Keep it away from heat, sparks, and flame. It should not be ingested or inhaled deeply into the lungs, and it should not be left within reach of young children.

Skin Contact and Eye Contact:

Mild skin irritation and other discomfort may occur after contact if you have sensitive skin. Wash skin thoroughly with water and mild soap to remove the oil from skin. Avoid eye contact, and if exposed, rinse eyes immediately with plenty of clean running water thoroughly and seek medical help.

Ingestion, Inhalation, and Aspiration Hazard:

If the valve oil is accidentally ingested or inhaled, please DO NOT induce vomiting as it may cause the oil to enter into the lungs. If vomiting occurs, the head should be kept low so that vomit will not enter the lungs. Please seek medical help immediately. See additional cautions below.

Any light oil including valve oils, synthetic or petroleum-based, may be harmful or fatal if inhaled into the lungs as it can cause lung damage and can make it hard to breathe. All valve oil manufacturers are required to put these warnings on the bottles in the USA and in Europe.

Here is the direct link to this reference:
https://www.ultrapureoils.com/post/product-health-safety?srsltid=AfmBOoqMxhp2nnN7YWKnaMH2I-nI12m6oaau0V_rPuxu5NgEOnXJDJax

[Anthony Lenzo]

@Trumpetb I use LaTromba oil #3 it's for monel pistons.

[Jolter]

@ROWUK said in Old vintage maintenance.Conn:

I would never oil the inside. Remember: valve oil is NOT food safe and if you oil the bore, you WILL breathe in the vapor.

Regular maintenance should include bathing the horn in proportion to how often it is played.

Supposedly WD40 is food safe and designed to displace water (WD=Water Displacement). That may be an option, but just as I prefer bathing myself, my horn certainly deserves regular attention too!.

I am not convinced WD-40 is food-safe. It does not have the smell of a food-safe product.

In fact, I googled it and would advise against using it in a wind instrument based on this material safety data sheet:

IF SWALLOWED: Immediately call a POISON CENTER or physician. Do NOT induce vomiting.
IF INHALED: Remove person to fresh air and keep comfortable for breathing. Call a POISON CENTER or
physician if you feel unwell.

Apart from that nuance, I agree completely with your assessment.

[Jolter]

@Trumpetb said in Old vintage maintenance.Conn:

Other oils are food based and are eco friendly.

One example is Monster Oil EcoPro Valve Oil, this is said to be 100% plant-based, is extremely long-lasting, very fast, and virtually odorless.

The threat to health is based upon high volatility and high vapour pressure. High vapour pressure means it evaporates easily.

The Monster Oil would be odourless because it does not evaporate easily.

I have not tested a sample of the Monster oil so I cannot attest to its safety. I suspect it is quite safe to use in the mouthpipe or leadpipe of an instrument.

[...]

We are very lucky to have very modern oils with low viscosity and low vapour pressure that are far safer than the more traditional paraffin based oils.

They do however cost considerably more to produce.

I looked up that Monster oil and it seems to be marked with "Aspiration hazard". Check out the picture of the back of the bottle:

https://www.thomann.de/se/monster_oil_ecopro_heavy_valve_oil.htm

If inhalation of valve oil is something we worry about, I'd still be very hesitant to recommend that anyone put even this eco-friendly oil down their leadpipe. As you say, the asphyxiation danger comes from getting the oil into the alveola of the lungs, and I'm sure that's possible from any oil of a particular viscosity, regardless of whether it is sourced from petroleum or vegetables.

[Trumpetb]

@Jolter

Absolutely correct Jolter Monster Oil is marked aspiration hazard.

The problem is health and safety has decreed that all products must be marked aspiration hazard even if there is no evidence that there is a hazard.

This is a legal issue to guard against litigation.

For example disinfectant that kills 100% of germs has to be labelled kills 99% of germs.

No manufacturer is allowed to claim that a disinfectant kills 100% of germs. However a disinfectant that does not kill 100% of germs is useless. They all kill 100% but they are required to say they dont.

Industry is often forced to make ridiculous claims of risk where risk is simply not there, to satisfy ill conceived legislation and by doing so remove threats that simply dont exist.

Tea cozys for example those are the fabric insulators placed over and around tea pots and coffee pots

In 2001, a government report in the UK found that tea cozies were responsible for about 40 emergency hospital treatments each year. The report also found that accidents involving tea cozies had doubled in recent years.

I cannot find any numbers of aspiration hazard from light oils. I can only find 46 cases of inhilation of oil following major oil spills.

A conclusion we can draw is tea cozys carry a similar risk to aspiration or inhilation risk following all global oil spills.

The risk is so slight as to carry no records of any suffering of this risk.

Water carries an aspiration hazard. There are many cases of drowning each year. Water however has not come under scrutiny by the legislators yet.

235,000 people drown every year. This suggests a trumpet player is 235,000 times more likely to die from using water as they are from using valve oil.

Additionally RV's carry a warning to avoid leaving the drivers seat while driving the vehicle. This was following Grazinski V Winnebago when Grazinski left the driving seat to make a cup of coffee while driving at speed and the cruise control was on.

His argument was that it was not stated in the owners manual that drivers should not leave the wheel while driving at speed on the highway.

So yes there is a warning on all oils that an aspiration hazard exists. And it is there not because there is a hazard but because it is required by law for all oils to carry this warning.

It was in 2020 and 2021 that oil manufacturers were forced to place aspiration hazard warnings on their products. You may recall that many products changed their labeling at that time.

Before that time many products did not carry that warning. Does that mean they carried no hazard before 2020 or 2021. The warning was and is a legal requirement and is not due to any quantified risk. It is just the class of products that now require the warning.

For this reason we cannot assume there is a real aspiration hazard simply because it is marked as such.

As I said earlier I have not performed any testing on Monster oil caution is always recommended.

Apart from this very minor disagreement I heartily approve of and agree with your posts on this topic.

I would add that I have never suffered any ill effects of using copious amounts of oils on trumpet including within the lead pipe.

I have never seen any evidence in cases of musicians using valve oil.

I have seen cases of children drinking paraffin based valve oil and then suffering difficulties.

I would also agree that WD40 is in no way safe.

In fact WD means water displacement. This product displaces water and removes it from any surface it falls upon.

Water makes up 75% of the lungs, to place a water displacing product into the lungs is likely to lead to a swift death. I agree with you on this product and would go much further.

WD40 should not be allowed anywhere near the body in my opinion. It believe it is far more dangerous than any traditional valve oil.

Believing WD40 to be food safe is in my opinion similar to believing that my left foot is a pecan pie. But thats just me.

Its not a pecan pie.