Building and Repairing
-
As a person who is less than wealthy, I am excluded from a lot of things that require wealth. I cope by doing as much as I can myself. Paying professionals outrageous rates for adjustments and minor repairs is out of the question. I've found that such information is guarded by practitioners to protect their incomes and exclude or discourage DIYers like myself. It's been difficult to discover good and 'open source' types of info. Most often I'm told to go patronize a pro. The same goes for talking about the experience of being self-taught as a player. Skilled veterans treat me with contempt for not having paid a teacher for lessons. So, two things: a clearinghouse for technical info not monopolized by guarded professionals, and an area for self-taught and novice learners to speak without the big, 'kings of the hill' master players swooping down to deride or stifle. Just a thought.
-
In my experience, there have always been individuals who have been there to offer help, when needed. But you have to seek them out. Additionally, the internet, with YouTube, forums, etc., is a cornucopia of information. One does have to be very careful, however, as it's full of self-appointed experts.
Regarding teachers, technicians etc. keeping some info close to the chest, they've spent years, sometimes lifetimes, acquiring their knowledge. I wouldn't expect them to give the knowledge away for free.
But back to the access of free knowledge, it's never been better. I may have misunderstood the intent of this post's main points but as I understand it, I can't see where the problem exists. Not being negative, I'm just possibly missing the purpose of the post.
Benge 3X
Martin Committee
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flugelhorn"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn."
Charlie Parker"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
Chet Baker -
@_mark_ said in Building and Repairing:
As a person who is less than wealthy, I am excluded from a lot of things that require wealth. I cope by doing as much as I can myself. Paying professionals outrageous rates for adjustments and minor repairs is out of the question. I've found that such information is guarded by practitioners to protect their incomes and exclude or discourage DIYers like myself. It's been difficult to discover good and 'open source' types of info. Most often I'm told to go patronize a pro.
Here's a good place to start:
https://www.youtube.com/c/TheBrassandWoodwindShopThere are others on Youtube that you can find with the Search function.
Getzen Eterna 700, Eterna 800
Conn Connstellation 28A, Victor 80A, Connqueror (1903)
ACB Doubler Flugelhorn -
@_mark_ You can always ask me for help with specific problems. I'll try and help, or find someone who can help.
ACB Doubler Picc
Courtois Balanced
Courtois D
Olds Recording
Buescher Aristocrat
Gaudet C
Selmer G
Courtois 154 Flugelhorn
Besson International Bb cornet
Ganter Eb cornet
Besson International baritone
B&H Sovereign trombone
Weltklang Euph -
Technicians tend to keep our info to ourselves because we’ve seen what happens when DIYers work on stuff, and it’s almost never good. It can be hard to guide a good apprentice right in front of you, and even harder to guide anonymous folks on the internet. There’s a reason we go to school and/or apprentice with good techs - it’s a hard trade to learn! Not only do we not want to lose any possible sources of income, but we also want to save you from breaking more than you fix and having a higher repair bill in the end. We also don’t want to be blamed for giving you just enough info to be a danger to your equipment, and then be blamed for it. The same goes for pro players/teachers, although it applies more to lost income. There are many players doing some kind of YouTube free lessons, but you don’t end up with the full benefit of the lesson without feedback from the teacher. Sometimes it’s just enough info to be dangerous as well, depending on the student and the lesson.
I’ve been getting paid to play for 35 years, and as a tech for 3.5 years. Neither pays enough that I live any sort of glamorous life, though having the benefit of a pension from my career in Navy bands has made my repair career a possibility. During COVID, both pro musicians and techs have suffered, many to the point of needing to change careers. Many have not only lost income, but also gigs that would advance their careers. I definitely lost two gigs due to Covid that would have helped me quite a bit! Many techs that lost business have also had to deal with the possibility of being exposed to Covid through customer horns - not an easy living, for sure. Since I work on horns before they go up for sale, I try to send as much business to local techs as I can. If you don’t use them, they may not be there to help when you need them!Daily players: Adams A1, A4LT, F2 flugel , CN1 cornet.
Schagerl Raweni
Puje 3am(named for me), Benge pocket
Schilke P5-4, C5L
Yamaha 761 Eb/D
Lots of vintage toys -
@flugelgirl said in Building and Repairing:
Technicians tend to keep our info to ourselves because we’ve seen what happens when DIYers work on stuff, and it’s almost never good. It can be hard to guide a good apprentice right in front of you, and even harder to guide anonymous folks on the internet. There’s a reason we go to school and/or apprentice with good techs - it’s a hard trade to learn! Not only do we not want to lose any possible sources of income, but we also want to save you from breaking more than you fix and having a higher repair bill in the end. We also don’t want to be blamed for giving you just enough info to be a danger to your equipment, and then be blamed for it. The same goes for pro players/teachers, although it applies more to lost income. There are many players doing some kind of YouTube free lessons, but you don’t end up with the full benefit of the lesson without feedback from the teacher. Sometimes it’s just enough info to be dangerous as well, depending on the student and the lesson.
I’ve been getting paid to play for 35 years, and as a tech for 3.5 years. Neither pays enough that I live any sort of glamorous life, though having the benefit of a pension from my career in Navy bands has made my repair career a possibility. During COVID, both pro musicians and techs have suffered, many to the point of needing to change careers. Many have not only lost income, but also gigs that would advance their careers. I definitely lost two gigs due to Covid that would have helped me quite a bit! Many techs that lost business have also had to deal with the possibility of being exposed to Covid through customer horns - not an easy living, for sure. Since I work on horns before they go up for sale, I try to send as much business to local techs as I can. If you don’t use them, they may not be there to help when you need them!
-
@kehaulani please include links and directions to the cornucopia. In a way, you've exemplified my point. You've attempted to nullify the things I've expressed.
-
@shifty thanks for that. I have been searching. Not coming up with much that isn't promotional. Some physics research, some superficial overviews of processes, most of the 'look at how great we are' kind. I've got Croft & Taylor which I've pored over, but would like more in the nature of brass tacks, pun intended.
-
@barliman2001 thanks. Not really knowing who to go to has been one issue. It's useless to say this, I know and don't need to be told, but I pine for the days when makers and repairers could be found up and down the streets of Cleveland, and opportunities to learn were plentiful and not overpriced luxuries.
-
@flugelgirl neither you nor anyone else in this group should take what I'm saying personally. I don't know any of you. I thought I posted in a suggestion~type area for access to information and for shielding from condescending masters and gatekeepers of the guild. I have several horns, because they were practically free for the asking, that probably are failed home jobs. There's no reason for them to not be candidates for minor repairs. They're like stray dogs or cats. I'll never be able to threaten anyone's livelihood as a repairer or as a player, never fear
-
What kind of things are you wanting to do a horn? Soldering can be done at home at little expense, but you can make a real mess if you don't have a feel for it. Dent work requires some rather expensive tools and requires even more of a feel for the metal than soldering. Cleaning can be easily done at home.
-
I'm a DIY-er also. But I'm fortunate enough to be able to take the more valuable horns to the pros when necessary. I only try major things on "project" horns of little value and I only do simple, routine things on the more valuable horns. This guy was mentioned above, but he has a very good series of videos on YouTube.....
There are also many other good tutorials on YouTube.
My most recent project has been lapping the valves on my Bach Mercedes. Before I started, that horn had the stickiest, balkiest valves of any horn I ever played. If that was really a Strad valve block before it went into the Mercedes, it must have been a "second" or reject block. I still don't have the valves the way I want, but they are much better than when I started. To avoid over-lapping, I only do a little hand-lapping and then clean it out thoroughly, play for a few days, and repeat. Nothing appears to be bent or warped. A pro could probably have gotten it right in one operation instead of several trial-end-error sessions, like me. But what the heck. I enjoy it and the horn is only a backup and practice instrument.
-
@_mark_ Not offended, just trying to explain why most of us do not give out repair info. One of the first things we tend to learn in this field is how much we don’t know, and how much time and money it takes to get a solid start in this field. It’s not cheaper and easier to DIY due to the learning curve and cost of tooling and supplies. My toolbox for school, which only includes the bare minimum needed to learn, was $3k. I’ve easily added that to tooling in my home shop, which is still very limited. It’s pretty hard to save money on repairs if you can’t afford the tooling needed to do a clean job, as well as the skills to use it. You’ll either end up spending more money in the end because you invested in the tools and supplies, or because you messed something up that will cost more than you would have spent on the original repair bill. Since you state your income is limited, you might save more money just by taking it to your local tech.
As far as other players caring whether you took lessons or not, no one really cares how you learned if you play well. The reason to invest in lessons is to learn something new from someone who does it better than you. Those of us who make money playing and teaching don’t care if you want to play for fun, and don’t judge you for the level you play at. The judgement comes if you’re getting paid to sit beside us and can’t do the job, simple as that. You should never feel bad about playing for the love of it, so enjoy! No judgement here, but no one is obligated to give anyone free lessons. Doesn’t mean it never happens, though, and there is a lot of free info out there that anyone can take advantage of if they can understand how to apply it. -
That was beautifully expressed.
-
@_mark_
I really did not see a question. I saw venting. And that's fine.Couple things..youtube. Now the guy that repairs my horns repairs them like a person like you or I can not nor ever will. Goes with the territory. However this gentleman is always willing to show me how he does stuff. And another thing..to fix stuff you need tools. Tools (micrometers, bore gages, granite blocks, etc are not cheap and you need them. I have many hundreds in just these "simple" tools. Sounds like you could not afford them..so why complain.
The other thing. You can not hope to progress beyond a certain level of proficiency without good instruction. Take that to the bank.
But there are avenues out there. You just have to ask.
-
Hmm, I probably shouldn't answer, but the original post struck me in a way that I can't let go of easily.
I don't think that ANYONE OWES ANYONE ELSE ANYTHING. Posters that come on with how they have been given a rough time are very suspicious in my book. The second "telltale" tidbit in this thread is the mention of low funds being a reason to call fair repair rates "outrageous" or even the myth of those "outrageous" prices driving us to DIY.
Skilled veterans NEVER treat musicians in need with "contempt" (their may be other types of non-customers that rub them in a way that generates less cooperation however! As a matter of fact, the seasoned veterans (at least all that I know) are usually very willing to help the needy in special ways.
My drive to DIY is based only on my personal interest about how things work and none of my techs have heartburn about it.
Now if we can get beyond the very bogus "contempt" for those making an honest living, there are a lot of resources available for the DIY trumpeter. I took a natural trumpet building course that lasted 5 days. We had three professionals showing us (13 course members) their "tricks of the trade", from soldering to brazing, to making tubes and bells, hand hammering, bending our self made tubes and engraving. In addition, we all had successfully built a working trumpet after 4 days.
The artisans that I work with are very responsive when I ask "Can you show me how to do that". I have learned how to properly change leadpipes, set the gap on a mouthpiece receiver and what happens when we move a brace. They have helped me to purchase the right tools for specific jobs. They have all let me in on "secret tweeks" - knowing that I would not abuse the information.
I know of no website with trumpet repair tips for the DIY scene. The reasons are manifold. No respect, strong differences in the definition of "quality", myths.
So, my recommendation is to look in the mirror. Maybe, just maybe you will see something that could change your relationship with the professionally qualified. My firsthand experience is that they are much more forthcoming than the way you came on in your original post.
-
@rowuk My experience with good techs is very much like yours. I have not built a trumpet from scratch, however. I knew a particularly skilled and generous instrument repairman/fabricator who allowed me to not only observe, but also on occasion participate in repairing and servicing various instruments, and he at times guided me in working on my own instruments, for which I am forever humbly grateful.
The genetic wiring in my brain has always enabled me to excel at all things mechanical, and I have always been willing to share my knowledge with others without concern that someone would steal business from me or outdo me in other ways, because I knew it would be very difficult at best for them to do so. If someone is better than I am at something, that means that there is room for my improvement, and it also means that they deserve the patronage of those looking for expertise.
I have observed that those who jealously guard their "secrets" may have shortcomings that they do not want others to discover and are uncomfortable having others looking over their shoulder.
On balance, I also feel that there are those who have no innate ability in certain things and should not be encouraged to pursue them, as disaster surely awaits them.
