There is a lot to take in here, and I appreciate it! As I suspected, the differences are subtle, innumerable, and in the end, magic comes into play. The days of music stores are gone, however. It's primarily internet shopping now, with all the risks. I'll keep using my Chinese horn for some time because I have the beginner's road ahead of me still, and I can't afford to take risks on horns that are complete unknowns to me. Eventually, when justified by improved skill, and I have saved enough, I'll see what I can afford and judge according to the catalog or listing description, I suppose. I remember once, long ago, buying a Gibson guitar sight-unseen on the basis of reputation and getting a 'lemon' that was 'off', couldn't be well intonated, and lacked resonance/response. I sold it on without losing money thanks to the brand, but learned to judge by actual tactile engagement with the instrument, not by name brand, and taught myself to re-do frets, nuts, and bridges because almost no off-the-hook instruments are finely set up from the factory. With horns, to some extent, it seems like you roll the dice and gamble your c-notes, and you just get lucky on a magic horn, or you don't.

@rowuk Thank you. Things aren't going as badly as all that. I only got the Dalek sound once or twice when my weak lips go out of control. Actually, I've been reading and taking to heart the guidance and warnings. I'm actually playing good notes in the mid-range, tounging better, and my finger independence has improved more than i thought possible at the start. I can't get above the staff, yet, but I guess facial musculature takes a while to develop.

@libertydoc thanks a bunch! Just what I wanted to know. And thanks for the book references, too.

I'm a rank beginner with a B flat trumpet. Total playing time less than an hour. I'm getting some notes pretty consistently (and loving it). But I'm puzzled as to why pressing the third valve seems to be giving me a fifth above? I play F, press the third valve and get a B above. What am I doing wrong?

@dale-proctor Thanks.

@rowuk Thank you! I'll take your advice to heart. I'm just starting to play in retirement on social security. I only want to play music for myself. I don't even like the sound of very high notes and don't have technical ambitions.

I played and struggled with guitar for decades, but it was always frustrating and unsatisfying. I'd always wanted to try the trumpet.

I finally got an inexpensive instrument and found that it feels like coming home, in spite of the awful sounds I was producing. I'm getting better, sounding better, although awkward in every way, and sometimes, I seem to lose the gains I'd thought I'd made yesterday. Still, I'm enjoying it every day.

My budget will never allow for a good instrument or teacher. It will have to be ear effort, books, youtube.

I have one 'buck tooth' and some overbite. I'm trying to come to some kind of accommodation with this. It becomes very difficult above 'f'. My upper lip is pulled tight and thin over that one tooth. A lot of songs require that 'g' and 'a' up there, but so far, I'm not getting them. Three months, so far.

I won't give up, though. I'm loving it too much.

Thanks again.

@rowuk i did not mean to give advice. I'm absolutely unqualified. I hope no one took or takes anything i say in that spirit. One does not learn anything in the manner of being self-taught without analyzing from ones own trial and error experience, but henceforth I'll just keep that part to myself. I appreciate the tips and guidance that have come from this forum. Much obliged.

Warning: beginner question. What's the gist of the difference between beginner, intermediate, and advanced instruments besides the enormous price differential? Coming from guitars, such differences are blatant. But with trumpets, it's hard to imagine any but subtle differences.

@georgeb Thank you, again! I was having trouble determining the practical difference between those cups.

@j-jericho Thanks. I don't think it's excessive. I can practice for an hour a couple times a day and not feel any pain. I was warned about that from the start and I try to be careful. Not to mention having seen the scars on the lips of all of my 'heroes', like Satchmo, Miles, Chet Baker ...

@flugelgirl neither you nor anyone else in this group should take what I'm saying personally. I don't know any of you. I thought I posted in a suggestion~type area for access to information and for shielding from condescending masters and gatekeepers of the guild. I have several horns, because they were practically free for the asking, that probably are failed home jobs. There's no reason for them to not be candidates for minor repairs. They're like stray dogs or cats. I'll never be able to threaten anyone's livelihood as a repairer or as a player, never fear

@barliman2001 thanks. Not really knowing who to go to has been one issue. It's useless to say this, I know and don't need to be told, but I pine for the days when makers and repairers could be found up and down the streets of Cleveland, and opportunities to learn were plentiful and not overpriced luxuries.

@shifty thanks for that. I have been searching. Not coming up with much that isn't promotional. Some physics research, some superficial overviews of processes, most of the 'look at how great we are' kind. I've got Croft & Taylor which I've pored over, but would like more in the nature of brass tacks, pun intended.

@kehaulani please include links and directions to the cornucopia. In a way, you've exemplified my point. You've attempted to nullify the things I've expressed.

As a person who is less than wealthy, I am excluded from a lot of things that require wealth. I cope by doing as much as I can myself. Paying professionals outrageous rates for adjustments and minor repairs is out of the question. I've found that such information is guarded by practitioners to protect their incomes and exclude or discourage DIYers like myself. It's been difficult to discover good and 'open source' types of info. Most often I'm told to go patronize a pro. The same goes for talking about the experience of being self-taught as a player. Skilled veterans treat me with contempt for not having paid a teacher for lessons. So, two things: a clearinghouse for technical info not monopolized by guarded professionals, and an area for self-taught and novice learners to speak without the big, 'kings of the hill' master players swooping down to deride or stifle. Just a thought.

@flugelgirl yes, thanks. This is coming clear as i go along. I've DIYd my way through life, have many & various tools, and generally read, calculate & measure twice or more times before actually making a move. My several inexpensively acquired used and abused trumpets have various issues that I'm working out 'blind'. Learning via apprenticeship isn't even a real world option. So it goes! Thanks for the tips.

Apart from eBay, where does one look for bits pieces, parts & tools, for restoring old & abused instruments? At the moment, I'm looking for (but realizing I may have to make) felt and cork stopper rings for the valve tops of a Carl Fischer Reliable.

@dale-proctor I tried it with a thin hard awl but got nowhere. I'll search up my punches. By the way, although significantly deformed, they play.

@kehaulani the mouth of the shank isn't round anymore. It has flat edges from being dropped.

@_mark_ I'd upload pictures if I knew how.