Best posts made by ROWUK

My experience with Chinese instruments has been very good. We just have to understand that they do not decide on the quality, they just build to order.

When I last visited, I saw the production lines. If some customer wants a $50 trumpet, they will build it. For $51, you get some nickel silver trim, for $52, a bit thicker metal. $55 gets you a couple of mu more Monel on the valves... And so it goes up to their most expensive instruments that cost maybe $650 each (including mouthpiece, case and white gloves) when a container full is ordered. The realistically purchased instruments are VERY, VERY good!

The bad guy is not the manufacturer, rather the customer that is willing to pawn off cheap on their customers.

What is "value"? Do we compare purchase price to what you can recover after 5 or 10 years?

I have always learned that we buy cheap tools twice.

@_mark_
It is (maybe not) funny, but I have NEVER had a beginner walk away from the first lesson with what you describe.
"Too much" pressure is NOT an issue for the first weeks/months of playing and if your face is capable of forming the letter "M" without nervous twitches, you are only a moderate breath away from a stable first note.
That first note can be practiced with just buzzing the lips, buzzing with the mouthpiece or buzzing with the mouthpiece and horn. We do not need to squeeze the lips together with high pressure, the normal letter "M" is enough for the first open tones - normally open G and low C. Resist the urge to mess around with the valves until your "M"-bouchure is steady.
The trumpet actually only needs a wisp of air to ignite the tone. A LOT of players exercise WAY TOO MUCH EFFORT in basic tone production. Do not try to hyperventilate after reading how much "air" the so called experts pump through the horn. Do not try and form a six pack in your face.
Trumpet playing is thousands of very low impact repetitions. There are no short cuts.
Slow down, find someone who plays reasonably well from a local band or school and get the beginnings in a decent direction.

@walter-sk Microns separate easy and hard removal. It is still a simple job for a tech but "all your strength" could make the repair very costly.
I have had students with this problem. It can happen if one lays the trumpet down with the 2nd slide underneath. It takes a small hit (no dent) and it is microns out...

@furcifer I am not sure that Bach Snob is really a valid generalization. Most of the trumpeters that I know and have known, play what they play and certainly NEVER picked their horn for snobbish reasons. There is a reason that Bach is popular - it simply sounds good. Great core and blend. Easy to play (well most of the Bb are) and their reputation is built on that sound. There was a time when almost nothing else was found in the major symphony orchestras. Players that trained the current generation of top teachers - many of which have switched to Yamaha. Fast forward 30 years and we now see that Yamaha in fact has taken the lead - in student, intermediate and pro trumpets. Schilke has jumped on the same bandwagon - with the HD model. The B&S Challenger series also shares a similar core sound.

My point was that a vintage trumpet is not necessarily a good choice for someone in high school and that a generally accepted "standard" type instrument is a better base instrument. Certainly Bach has withstood the test of time (including hard times) - can we say that about the defunct Martin corporation? What happened to Holton, Buescher, Conn and Olds? Where are Selmer Trumpets today? They did not die because of snobbery.

I am a professional in Europe where Bach is generally not the instrument of choice. My main piston axe is a Monette Raja C trumpet, my second most used piston axe is a Bach C trumpet that I bought in 1975. I play far more rotary and valveless instruments however. Still, in the best interest of a student, we do need to consider things, even if we ourselves have the freedom to do other things.

@JorgePD said in Did anyone made a copy of "The Circle of Breath":

Would working on the circle of breath be part of your warm up?

It is the core of everything that I do. If I have time for a warmup, for sure. If not, some other time of the day. We need to stay connected to the needs of our bodies and attitudes.

@mike-ansberry I am not sure that the Getzen will ever be one of those "rare finds" that command top dollar. If the hook is professionally attached, all traces can be removed during a restoration. I would go for it!

1. It is really tough to get the human lips vibrating at a useful frequency without air...
2. Yes, we can excite a standing wave in a trumpet with a speaker or piezoelectric device without "blowing air"
3. An efficient embouchure needs LESS blowing than an inefficient one
4. That efficient embouchure created an optimal relationship between muscle tension around the lips and the pressure (not speed) of the air that we blow.
5. The nature of the original question is conducive to a lot of useless posting/arguing semantics
6. the best players have the best control of their air, body use and embouchure tension.

@furcifer we do not, or did not disagree.
As far as getting market share, there are a lot of factors involved - many having nothing to do with quality.
I still maintain that a "vintage" trumpet is not necessarily a good choice for someone in high school - unless someone can responsibly confirm intonation, valve condition and playability beforehand.

My first instrument was a 1911 Holton Long Cornet that I inherited from my grandfather in the late '60s. He used spit and water instead of valve oil and the condition of the valves certainly were a "problem". I was lucky and had a trumpet playing music teacher that worked with my parents to get me another horn in excellent playing condition. It was like pulling the cork out! Now 50+ years later, I am still performing professionally (with other horns). With the playing handicap of the old horn, who knows what I would be doing today.

Thank you for digging this out. I had as much fun putting it originally together as many had after using it for a while.

The change in timbre is based on the cylindrical to tapered proportions as well as the specific partial being played.
Many modern piston trumpets have been homogenised for a generally even tone. Rotary trumpets are not so "homogenised" and even a change in register creates a change in tone. Composers like Bruckner, Mahler, Strauss and Wagner even composed for the unhomogenised state.

My first action when reviewing a new piece is to determine phrasing and breathing. I enter breath marks, dynamics, slurs and other info (pencil). I ALWAYS prepare this way and practice with everything that I have decided. Only this way does it become habit for me and it relieves my mind during performance of some unnecessary decision making.
There are occasions when I enter notes to take a "small breath". I need this when I have little time further down to exhale before I fill up. The Bach Christmas Oratorio bass aria #8 "Grosser Herr" is an example of this situation. One could also try to muscle through, I just have had better luck through optimization.

All trumpets have "multiple" bores. The leadpipe "average" is a start. Then the valve cluster, and then the bore up until the bell flare starts.
A good example of Dual Bore would be every trumpet with a reverse tuning slide.

I believe that the dual bore was simply a further marketing term for technology that makes a trumpet ever more cornet-like. Real trumpets in the traditional sense were cylindrical except for the bell and mouthpiece. Over 60% of the bore is cylindrical in this case.
The first valved trumpets were the longer natural instruments with valves. As the instruments got shorter (solely for the purpose of more accuracy - never because of tone), the proportion of tapered to cylindrical bore shifted with less than 50% and "modern C trumpets" are lucky if they are ⅓ cylindrical - now they are more members of the horn family.
So, the King dual-bore does not make large bore easier playing or medium bore bigger sounding. It is a marketing term that has not survived the test of time. If you find a good one, it is simply another old trumpet worth playing.

@Dr-GO No, I have never needed circular breathing to get me through any particular phrase.
Most of my gigs are not sight reading, so I do have time to „feed my dependence“ on organisation and preparation.

When I do sightread (happens with commercial shows that I play), I still use the pencil when looking at the parts before the rehearsal. Potential missed accidentals get marked as well as „special breathing“ or time change situations. During the usual rehearsal, I fill in the rest of the dots.

This is what I do and teach. It is not a recipe for everyone or other situations. It helps to keep those that book me loyal.

@JWM The #1 reason for range just stopping at a specific note is too much damn pressure.

A buzz is nothing more than the lips opening and closing at a certain frequency. If we apply large amounts of arm pressure to the embouchure, we need far more air pressure to blow the lips apart. That is not a very responsive system!

In my view, the easiest way to break this habit is to turn the testosterone down. Play ONLY very, very softly for a couple of weeks and focus on the air doing the work. Overdose on pianissimo lipslurs and long tones. Practice to get the sound to start on a wisp of air.

Generally, it takes only a lesson or two to get students doing this reliably. The biggest problem with a social media recommendation is that body use can not be controlled. If someones body is twisted into knots, a big relaxed breath is a challenging thing. Exhaling also becomes a real chore.

My full view is in several posts that I made called "the circle of breath". This is a collection of things from many disciplines. Google it and if there is something unclear, just ask.

Annie,
we are creatures of habit. With your "repaired lip", you have to retrain what your brain expects. That takes a couple of THOUSAND repetitions.

My experience is to use what has worked for you before but under no circumstance stress out. Our brain works on a reward/punishment system and constantly trying to "hit" high notes sends a frustration message - blocking development and increasing doubt.

Without having you in my studio for a lesson, I would recommend only safe stuff:

1. Practice as softly as you can. This promotes fine motor reaction from the lip muscles instead of forcing a six pack build.
2. Overdose on "easy" interval slurs - like from the Adam 27 Lip flexibilities book.
3. avoid all frustrating things - if your upper octave is deficient, work on articulation and stuff in the lower register. Make your playing time positive and productive. Excel at other things!

I am sort of an expert on this because I lost all of my teeth 3 years ago in an accident. I was lucky because there were very few gigs during Covid. I had time to work things out. The road back was full of "back to the basics" and keeping my attitude in the right direction. My upper octave is not complete yet but it is enough for the symphonic work that I do.

@Trumpetb I understand you actually quite well. I also disagree with a lot that you post - because it all seems so random and not based on real experience. It is also very confusing considering that we have readers that can not tell the difference.
I disagree with "zeroing in" between mouthpiece and each horn - unless the mouthpiece has the same rim and cup and only minor shank work is necessary. Before my Monette period, I used the same mouthpiece on all my trumpets except for when I played lead. Monette builds Bb, C and Eb mouthpieces so I use the same size, cup and throat for all of those horns. Even the flugel and cornet mouthpiece have the same rim.
I would also disagree that mouthpieces GENERALLY change with style unless we are comparing lead to everything else.
We are creatures of habit and to get a stable base, we need to reduce our choices to optimize with the limited time that those of us posting here have.
If accuracy is a non issue for your playing, then the free for all is fine.
I do not need multiple mouthpieces for symphonic, chamber, commercial or big band (except lead). My chosen mouthpiece is dynamic enough in its behaviour that I do not experience problems that I can't fix just by practicing more.
Now, the bogus use of the word physics in this context is worth clarifying. IF high quality playing is critical, we actually have very few choices. We need very clear articulation, clear tone from low to high. We need a tone compatible with the section that we play in as well as great flexibility, security and good intonation. Please do not compare Till Brönner to Maynard Ferguson or Jean Francois Madeuf to Maurice Andre. They also have/had narrow choices that cover(ed) their specialized playing.
So, a lot of words around a very simple concept: jack of no trade and master of none. Creatures of habit need repetitions to develop a flexible tone covering many use cases. Creatures of habit need repetitions to build security and style. For players without a very strong foundation, changes are the primary cause of unreliability. Find the mouthpiece and practice routine that is the best compromise and stick with it.
Remember! this thread is about a player with an elusive high G# - so no lead, solo career, no historical performance practice or anything else with "special" hardware or non compatible tone. No hardware will solve this. It is mind over matter and perhaps Clarke is the answer, or maybe Schlossberg, for others it could just be getting too damn much pressure reduced a little bit.

Håkan is trying to unlock her ears and brain. She is a well accomplished technical player BUT she is not listening to the result of her playing in the room. She is playing "safe" inside her head. It will take time to develop these additional talents. She shows great promise!

Generally, only really serious dents (tube almost mashed together) will affect the intonation.
That being said, a technician that knows enough to tell you if removing the dent can cause a tear or hole, should be able to judge if it is intonation critical. If after a repair, a patch was applied, this will also not have any serious effect on intonation - especially if we are not talking about a professional player and her/his favorite horn!

One recommendation that I would offer to Anthony: please post pictures when you ask questions like this. Maybe we could offer advice BEFORE you make an uninformed decision. Some of us have been doing this for a VERY LONG TIME!

I have never had a dent tear because my tech annealed the dents before doing anything. Annealing is a process to soften the grain structure of metal to reduce stress. It is used when originally forming the tuning slide and slide bows as well as when hammering the bell.

Staying in shape is a process. Currently we are replacing certain opportunities with others and this can affect our playing in a serious way.
When we play in large rooms (bandroom or concert venues), what reaches our ears is considerably different than playing with a mute or in a small practiceroom/bedroom.

We need to find larger spaces to practice in. That promotes tone and the servo loop Player/horn->room->ears/brain. We are creatures of habit. Improve our habits and our playing becomes more stable. Even playing outdoors is a BIG help s tone has an opportunity to develop.