Very, very polished. Technically and musically more than what I was used to hearing from the original band. BUT and this is a VERY big but: the original band created the venue, charts, market. Let us see how much original new material will be composed...
I don't think that Lee Loughnane could have played these trumpet parts. I have a slight preference for Peter Ceteras voice and Terry Kaths guitar.
I was not aware of this band - thanks for the link!
The bore size of a trumpet is pretty much insignificant as a single parameter. There are bright and dark small and large bore trumpets, there are free blowing large and small bore trumpets. The achievable volume is not a function of the bore, rather the efficiency of the working system. We are not listening to an amplified buzz of the lips, rather a resonance (standing wave) in the horn. Due to a mismatch in the length of the horn and the bell shape, a small portion of that resonance “leaks” out. That is what we hear.
It is safe to say that most trumpet building companies do not have a specific sound color that they are building. They may have - by luck, found something that works and is saleable. Contrast this to the high end automobile industry where the sound of an exhaust system, slamming door, road noise leaking into the passenger area are all carefully engineered.
What is the common denominator of Schilke trumpets? I would say manufacturing quality, not a tonal characteristic. Bach is known for their core - something that has not changed or improved for decades. Yamaha on the other hand reinvented the trumpet sound with a Xeno. There is a characteristic tone through the whole range of those trumpets. The better Bachs from many companies also offer no real tonal advantage and those companies building them did not have tone as the goal, rather only sales.
In my world, next to Yamaha is Monette. He is not the Burger King of trumpets, you don’t get it your way. The trumpets have a characteristic sound that is consistent through ALL of the models.
There is plenty of room for innovation. We simply need to start asking the right questions and that starts maybe 50 feet in front of the horn. My first question would be “do trumpets need to be as loud as they are”. I believe that most modern trumpets have a dramatically comprimised tonal palette of colors due to the fact that they were built for louder. The first lawsuits have been won because of the damage that the brass intensity causes in orchestras. Can’t we get that glorious halo around the sound at a lower loudness? Most certainly - but not from companies selling bore size.
Many want simple answers to complex questions. That is normally a sign of something not good ahead. That is how politics work and we all know how that ends up.
Playing on the resonant center is at least the most efficient way to play. The problem is that we trumpeters do not play „well tempered“! An E in a C Major, A Major or F#7 all are different frequencies. That means that we are always adjusting - some. We do not have regulation for the second valve, so have to accept some non centered playing. Many trumpets also have intonation issues.
Fortunately, fine trumpets do not have knife edge slots so we can manage and still get great tone. Monette talks a lot about pitch center and how we muscle our bodies to correct design faults and other bad habits. I have done a lot of the things that he recommends and can say that the journey involves more than the resonant center of the instrument. We have to reduce body tension in a serious way to really benefit from the resonant center.
Moisture! The speed of sound in moist air is different than in dry and in the microcosmos of the trumpet, that is a big deal. Intonation and targets change.
Granted, if one has minimal chops, other issues may mask the effect.
A „moist“ instrument is different than just running water through it first (although that does help some).
This is such a fundamental thing for me that I will not risk playing a gig on a dry trumpet (even although it is only dry for the first 10 minutes or so). When testing trumpets, the first 10 minutes do not count.
I will keep this thread alive as a personal diary. I am not "looking" for advice, criticism or praise but those that have been through this probably have some additional stuff. Maybe we can keep the content level high to make it easier in the future to find stuff?
Step one was to pull teeth, step two is repair the jaw and after that is done and solid, the final step will be implanting anchors to hold the dentures solidly in place. This could be a year of updates. I do not recommend letting anyone smash the trumpet into your face... The trumpet was repaired far more quickly!
Well, step one happened on Monday. All the teeth on my lower jaw were removed and I got "dentures". No sutures were necessary even although one wisdom tooth was impacted.
The instructions from the doc were to leave the dentures in for 24 hours (to keep the tongue out of the sockets). Robin was a good boy. Antibiotics and Novaminsulfon pain relievers kept everything manageable. Talking is a major challenge as the tongue does not know where to go. I slept sitting up - following instructions. Porridge for breakfast, soups for lunch and dinner.
Yesterday (Tuesday) was just a maintenance day, I tired quickly and there was still a bit of bleeding. Took my antibiotics and only a pain reliever before bed. Talking is still challenged. I was able to sleep laying down. Porridge with berries for breakfast, soups for lunch and dinner.
Today, Wednesday was actually pretty good. No pain relievers needed. Still get tired faster than usual. Have trouble with all of the "S" consonants needed in english and german - lots of sibillance - sounds like a really cheap stereo! Most of the wounds are closed and there was no bleeding worth mentioning - so I pulled out my C-trumpet and played 30 minutes of easy long tones and lip slurs. Even with the dentures, everything still worked. My tone had a bit of air - but always does when I take 2 days off. Still, the only food that I can eat is minced very fine so it is immediately "swallowable". I am rinsing with salt water a couple of times per day. The dentures are staying remarkably in place but are too high on the left side. Just waiting for the swelling to go down so that adjustment makes sense. Porridge for breakfast, soups for lunch and dinner. I tried cutting up some sausages for the soup, but was not successful the first time around - they were not small enough to swallow directly. A mincer solved the problem but the sausage taste was too diluted by the soup. Probably should not have tried.
The rest of the day I spent voicing some new horns for my stereo!
Got pretty close but counter tenors still sound like crap. Well, tomorrow is also a day and I'll see how my ears work.
My next dental appointment is Monday to get the dentures adjusted. After that, I go back to work. Next concert series in 3 weeks...
"Too many" is a term for ones opinion of someone elses collection.
There are performers that play various venues and need various horns, there are players with one venue but like to use various horns, there are collectors with a purpose and collectors without purpose. Then there are those with more money than common sense.
Add to that our own relationship and we see that number of horns is a very dynamic thing. What works this year can be different even after a month or two.
My collection (now 20 trumpets) has always been "right sized". I always had a performance reason (mostly for historically informed playing ensembles) to buy the next instrument, and today I am only missing one instrument - a rotary valved C-trumpet of my own design (not TARV). The covid pandemic got in the way of that one and I have learned some stuff in the mean time that changed the game.
My advice would be to FORGET VINTAGE TRUMPETS at your stage of development. Generally, we need a primary instrument that blends well, is in tune and has an easy blow. Vintage trumpets mostly sound different, might not even be optimally in tune (many were built for a lower pitch than common for today) and could even be an issue for getting into ensembles. In addition, old trumpets are exactly that - old and unless they have been fully restored, you may have mechanical issues.
You will do yourself a great favor by saving up and getting one of the more "standard" models: Yamaha 6xxx, B&S Challenger, Jupiter, Bach 180, Getzen 900. You will be rewarded with an instrument that will not be in the way later in your "career". The problem is that players get passed over because of their instruments not "blending" - without anyone telling them. I have a Bach C trumpet for ensembles that "prefer" that standard sound - even although it is not my favorite instrument. I would rather keep the gig instead of "proving a point" where only I lose.
That being said, once you have a solid every day "go to" instrument, additional horns can increase the available colors. If you are into jazz, there is more room for "individuality" after you have found your own voice
@administrator
My take on this is perhaps a bit unconventional, but I would insist that between those two horns, it does not matter. Regardless of which on you pick, there will always be something in the back of your mind questioning that choice.
That being said, I do not believe in a lot of this synergy blah. I do not believe that most musicians have a "well formed concept" that would guide them only to specific hardware (a claim that I make as a long time Monette trumpet owner). The musician that concentrates on the music, discovers whatever horn that they have in their hands in a special way. I do use my Monette C trumpet more than any other horn BUT I am not musically "limited" in the orchestra when I play my Selmer, Bach or any other horn. That does not mean that the Monette is not special to me, it only means that when I play, I have no dependencies, no questions in the back of my mind concerning hardware.
So, based on what you have posted, the Blackburn has appealed to you for many more years and the Yamaha discovery is new and has no specific "reasons" except hearsay. If you were my student, I would say play before you pay and would drive with you to wherever to make an informed decision with an extra set of ears that you could trust.
One thing is clear to me, I have many players that I admire and they cover just about every horn one could imagine. That means that the difference is them, not the hardware.
I think that everyone that makes "improvisation" a requirement to be a great trumpeter does not understand what "greatness" truly is!
There are many "strengths" that qualify for greatness. I do not think that Bud Herseth was a lesser trumpeter just because he did not perform combo gigs. I do not think that Miles is greater just because he improvises.
Greatness in my world comes from exceptional performance, preferably over a long time. Exceptional performance very much can be "only" being the solo trumpet in a symphony orchestra - a leader musically and dynamically (Bud Herseth, Bill Vacchiano as two examples). Exceptional performance can also be what Maynard did - keeping a live band afloat in the most difficult of times and inspiring generations of musicians that played in his band. Exceptional performance can be Pops - creating the base for many musical things taken for granted today. Exceptional performance can be Bachs own Gottfried Reiche - who inspired Bach to create some of the most awesome trumpet parts ever written.
I very much do agree that there are many fine but mediocre performances due to the lack of understanding the genre. The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra recently released a Gabrieli recording that is an example of such playing. Great players missing the point - and proving that there are modern groups of musicians that offer the same or less than the Philadelphia/Cleveland/Chicago recording from the 1960s.
I can very much appreciate what "non improvisors" have to make them great. I can also appreciate those dedicated to period style and performance practices (in Jazz, Commercial or classical genres). I do not understand the need to limit the term "great" to artificial requirements submitted by those not anywhere near greatness.
Moderation is in fact a double edged sword. On the one side, posting shows us the character of the poster - a measure by which we can decide what is worth reading. Postings also generate context that gets lost when things disappear. I agree that the best way is to "edit" the offense, clearly label the edit with the name of who edited and why. Deleting complete posts is on occasion necessary because of the content.
My experience at TrumpetMaster with PMing offenders was not generally positive (exceptions proving the rule). For someone with no sense of what freedom of speech costs, you cannot teach them this online. Often it is better to part ways.
After TrumpetMaster went down (with no warning or first hand information to this date), I reviewed my online activity and decided that I would not jump in to any new forum with the same "attitude". Some here surely welcome this. To be honest, I have found no trumpet forum where I "take home" as much as I invest. There are other forums where we stretch the envelope however. The mix of users is different, with less casual approaches to the technology. This is where my energy is going these days. Here, I am very content to browse and occasionally post - without repeating myself as much as I did at TrumpetMaster. I also seem not to be the focus of hate anymore (regardless of the underlying reasons).
In this respect, I too am a bit frustrated, but that is my problem where the trumpet is concerned. I am less interested in entertainment and more interested in what motivates players to take that "next step".
Fortunately, I have no site issues with MacOS and Safari. I am happy that someone decided to run and offer the TMers a new home.
Congratulations!
I have found that range becomes useful when we can integrate it into our "style". We need to know when the leading edge of "higher notes" must be round and fluffy or razor sharp. In the non rehearsal times, play along with any recordings that you have. An acid test would be to use headphones to hear the band and record JUST your playing. Afterwards the warts become very obvious when the band sound does not mask.
Have fun, stay healthy!
There are no "best" valves. Each type has its advantage and disadvantages. For a student horn, bulletproof stainless valves have a strong selling point. To a professional player that takes meticulous care in oiling and cleaning, no technology is better or worse.
As far as design goes, the Selmer Radial 2° valve block had definite ergonomic advantages. I can't say that they are faster than Bach, Getzen, Monette or Schilke valves however.
Most of the time, the pimps simply demonstrate that the owner had no process for picking the right horn in the first place. If they did, generally they can find one that does what its supposed to without any pimp. For instance, they buy a Bach 180 model, but do not like that much "core", so they unbalance the design with a pimp, normally making something worse for every thing that is viewed as "positive".
I can't count how many Bach owners drilled out the throat of their mouthpiece to "fix" something that was not broken - or to compensate for something that was not right instead of fixing it.
I had an elderly tuba playing student that got back to playing before he could even speak again. Tongue/breath coordination helped a whole lot as did forming the embouchure. What helped most was playing in front of a mirror which offered at least optical feedback before the sense of „feel“ came back.
My recommendation for practice is to take notes and rejoice in accomplished „small steps“! This is my strategy for all students, but especially if we have a temporary or permanent handicap, we need all of the objectiveness that we can find.
Pedal tones are the fundamental tones based on the length of the trumpet. They correspond to 1 wavelength. The next tone (2 wavelengths) in the partial series is an octave higher - on an open trumpet, low C. 3 wavelengths corresponds to a second line "g". 4 wavelengths is third space C., 5 is E, 6 is g on top of the staff, 7 is Bb above the staff and 8 wavelengths are C above the staff. Notice that every doubling of the wavelength is an octave higher for C 1, 2, 4 and 8. For G 3 and 6.
@stumac I think that most are dead because the market did not want what they were making - for the price that they were asking. Value is an interesting concept and it is still exists today. When businesses expand, they take a risk. When businesses have more overhead than turnover, they have a problem.
I admire the Chinese for their granular production. The same production line can build a $50 or a $1000 trumpet. The quality is determined by the person placing the order not the artisan. I have played prototypes of both. The knowledgable reseller does not HAVE to screw their customer.
On another side, I bought a 3d printer and have been printing mouthpieces. They are WAY TOO GOOD. I am not selling or taking orders, I am learning and offering my students the possibility to play before they pay. They can evaluate what the difference between an A, B, C, D, E cup is as well as backbores and rim shapes. Then they buy what works. There has not been much R&D on natural trumpet mouthpieces - just copies made of historical ones without knowledge if they were „high performance“ back then. For less than $1, I can experiment until I am happy. Then the 3d model can be made in silver, brass, copper or any printable plastic. Will this change the mouthpiece market - I certainly believe so. Print on demand could be a great advantage to a pro shop. No appreciable inventory. The printers with suitable resolution are available. Kelly mouthpiece anyone?
I have been watching this thread for a while and was not sure that I even wanted to get involved...
There is a strong tendency to "want to be right" which is OK, but I would ask if the original question was even the correct one. More on this later.
If we talk about cleaning instruments, surely alcohol - in whatever form is just a small piece of the picture. So, I think that this thread has identified the organic contaminants, but is that all that we are after? If Alcohol does not "remove" the contaminants, could it possibly decrease our chances of getting sick with a quick disinfect?
And here is my bitch with this thread - we have all the expert opinions but have ignored the fact that alcohol is NOT a cleaning agent of choice for the home. Water, a surfactant and some brushes are the primary choice to CLEAN the instruments - get the organic material that gunks up the valves, spit valves, promotes corrosion and would need disinfecting in the first place. Once the instruments are clean, they play best. Alcohol can be used as a disinfecting agent AFTER cleaning. Just like corona, or any surgical activity, we ALWAYS scrub first, THEN disinfect.
Now, we could argue that excessive disinfecting actually is a bigger problem than cure in many ways. Our immune system is capable of developing when exposed to small amounts of "contaminants". Kids that play in the mud seem to be healthier than the ones "protected" by overzealous parents. Could we not have a similar situation with the trumpet?
So, now we have enough information to replace "theory" with practical recommendations:
Many of us use excessive oil to "flush" aerosols and contaminants out of the valve block - instead of cleaning. I generally oil once a week. Mouthpiece and leadpipe/tuning slide get CLEANING with water, dishwashing liquid and a brush at least once a week - perhaps more often if we gig A LOT. The whole horn gets a bath/scrub once a month/quarter/year depending on how much it gets played. That is probably enough maintenance for any healthy trumpeter.
I only use alcohol when someone is trying my mouthpieces or I am in a store trying new mouthpieces out. I have NEVER disinfected my trumpet. If I wipe down the outside on my gold plated instruments, glass cleaner seems to be a really good thing.
So, I think that we have to pick our words carefully, otherwise we are just arguing about NOTHING.
@barliman2001 My take is that the body talks to us - and we make decisions based on what we heard and understood. Soft, slow, easy repetitions, long tones without articulation in the beginning - just exhale into the horn and let come what comes. Do this for a couple of days. If your body does not complain, add articulation. Avoid anything with compression.
I am certainly NOT for Botox. If a proper doctor has looked at you and there have been ultrasound/CRT/MRT whatever pictures taken to insure that the muscle tissue is properly attached at both sides, I would recommend calling Dave Monette. No, not for a new mouthpiece or trumpet, rather for his advice as a CST/Feldenkrais/yoga practitioner. We screw our bodies up in thousands of small steps and I believe the path back (barring serious physical damage) is also with small steps. I do not believe that "brute force" massages are the solution, although they can sometimes result in temporary relief.
I have helped people back to playing and speaking after strokes, and after an accident that has now resulted in full dentures for me, have also found my way back.
The small steps approach may sound esoteric, but I assure you, it is not.