Best posts made by ROWUK

In my world, we are creatures of habit. I am convinced that the „where“ is secondary, what we need is „stable“. This gives us a reliable target for development.

Recently, I have been spending a lot of time on the natural trumpet. The mouthpiece there is huge(19.5mm) and the proportion of upper to lower lip far different than with my „modern“ trumpets. This seems to be insignificant for playing. We just need a very stable base in everything that we do.

Generally, embouchure questions only come up when something is not working. There seems to be the blind assumption that we change one thing and are cured. This has NEVER worked. In my teaching, body use and breathing come first, then a relaxed exhale into the note. We build stability over time by strengthening the foundation and not moving too fast to get an octave more in 4 weeks before an audition. The attitude about preparation is the biggest reason that we get into trouble. We need to play things out of our scope because we did not improve the scope when we should have.

Generally, a good program with lipslurs can improve the embouchure by evolution instead of cold turkey revolution.

Very, very polished. Technically and musically more than what I was used to hearing from the original band. BUT and this is a VERY big but: the original band created the venue, charts, market. Let us see how much original new material will be composed...

I don't think that Lee Loughnane could have played these trumpet parts. I have a slight preference for Peter Ceteras voice and Terry Kaths guitar.

I was not aware of this band - thanks for the link!

Mark, as you may have noticed, any particular fingering can produce multiple notes. That is why 3 valves on the trumpet (with 9 possible combinations) can produce 30 to 40 different notes.
Just taking the open trumpet (no valves pressed) we can play a pedal C (one wavelength in the horn), low C (2 wavelengths), G (3 wavelengths), 3rd space c(4 wavelengths), 4th space e (5 wavelengths), top of staff g (6 wavelengths), high Bb (7 wavelengths) and high c (8 wavelengths).

What is happening to you is that you are playing a „G“ (3 wavelengths) and because your embouchure is staying tense, the note does not go down, rather jumps to the Bb which is the next note possible with the first valve.

Open horn: Pedal C, C, G, c, e, g, Bb, high c
2nd valve: Pedal B, B, F#, b, d#, f#, a, high b
1st valve: Pedal Bb, Bb, F, Bb, d, f, Ab, high Bb
1+2 valve: Pedal A, A, E, a, c#, e, g, high a
2+3 valve: Pedal Ab, Ab, Eb, Ab, c, Eb, high Ab
1+3 valve: Pedal G, G, D, g, b, d, top of staff g
1+2+3 valve: Pedal F#, F#, C#, F#, a#, c#, e, top of staff f#.

Any of the good trumpet method books have tables where they show this list. It is one of the basics of learning a brass instrument. As our lips are the motor „generating“ the sound, we must invest on controlling tension of the embouchure to produce the desired tones at will. A six pack in our face is the worst approach. We must think more like surgeons - fine motor activity. Many repetitions are required (thousands) until we perfect a certain aspect.

Relax your embouchure and you will get the F instead of the Bb.

To address the original post, prices are always relative - even for new horns. In the case of a Martin Committee we have several things contributing to the current high price:

limited quantity of playable instruments
high demand based on the supposed magical properties.

Now, magic IS something that CAN happen between a player and his instrument but that is the catch. The player AND the horn need complementary magic to make this investment worthwhile.

I am convinced that any number of manufacturers could recreate the Committee for a lot less money. There is no magic in the brass or skills required to make one. The issue is, that too few people would buy it because they mostly want the myth first and the story behind having one is created later.

@barliman2001 Thank you Elmar!

In my world, range is not really a function of mouthpiece or embouchure, it is "mostly" the synergy between the blow and lip tension. I can play my highest notes when I am most relaxed. When I increase embouchure tension, I have to "blow harder" and that makes life more "difficult".

My "secret" for range is slowing down. Longtones with minimal (not zero) lip or mouthpiece pressure. Once the juices are flowing, then lots of EASY lipslurs. I use the Earl Irons Lip Flexibilities book.

Before we get to mechanics, we have to get our breathing under control. I use a visualisation called "the circle of breath". Envision a large circle. From 6:00 to 12:00 is inhale, from 12:00 to 6:00 is exhale. Please note that the transition from inhale to exhale is perfectly smooth - just like the circle. That means that your inhale is timed to be finished exactly at 12:00 and that you have not gone into "compression" - where you need to release tension to even exhale. At 6:00 the opposite happens.

I am talking about practice habits here to "organize" breathing/body use and playing. When performing, we can not always maintain "best practices" as the RESULTS justify the means. Our daily practice is to refine the bodies part of playing and generally less tension is more range, articulation, tone and endurance.

The bore size of a trumpet is pretty much insignificant as a single parameter. There are bright and dark small and large bore trumpets, there are free blowing large and small bore trumpets. The achievable volume is not a function of the bore, rather the efficiency of the working system. We are not listening to an amplified buzz of the lips, rather a resonance (standing wave) in the horn. Due to a mismatch in the length of the horn and the bell shape, a small portion of that resonance “leaks” out. That is what we hear.

It is safe to say that most trumpet building companies do not have a specific sound color that they are building. They may have - by luck, found something that works and is saleable. Contrast this to the high end automobile industry where the sound of an exhaust system, slamming door, road noise leaking into the passenger area are all carefully engineered.

What is the common denominator of Schilke trumpets? I would say manufacturing quality, not a tonal characteristic. Bach is known for their core - something that has not changed or improved for decades. Yamaha on the other hand reinvented the trumpet sound with a Xeno. There is a characteristic tone through the whole range of those trumpets. The better Bachs from many companies also offer no real tonal advantage and those companies building them did not have tone as the goal, rather only sales.

In my world, next to Yamaha is Monette. He is not the Burger King of trumpets, you don’t get it your way. The trumpets have a characteristic sound that is consistent through ALL of the models.

There is plenty of room for innovation. We simply need to start asking the right questions and that starts maybe 50 feet in front of the horn. My first question would be “do trumpets need to be as loud as they are”. I believe that most modern trumpets have a dramatically comprimised tonal palette of colors due to the fact that they were built for louder. The first lawsuits have been won because of the damage that the brass intensity causes in orchestras. Can’t we get that glorious halo around the sound at a lower loudness? Most certainly - but not from companies selling bore size.

Many want simple answers to complex questions. That is normally a sign of something not good ahead. That is how politics work and we all know how that ends up.

Moisture! The speed of sound in moist air is different than in dry and in the microcosmos of the trumpet, that is a big deal. Intonation and targets change.
Granted, if one has minimal chops, other issues may mask the effect.
A „moist“ instrument is different than just running water through it first (although that does help some).

This is such a fundamental thing for me that I will not risk playing a gig on a dry trumpet (even although it is only dry for the first 10 minutes or so). When testing trumpets, the first 10 minutes do not count.

"Too many" is a term for ones opinion of someone elses collection.

There are performers that play various venues and need various horns, there are players with one venue but like to use various horns, there are collectors with a purpose and collectors without purpose. Then there are those with more money than common sense.

Add to that our own relationship and we see that number of horns is a very dynamic thing. What works this year can be different even after a month or two.

My collection (now 20 trumpets) has always been "right sized". I always had a performance reason (mostly for historically informed playing ensembles) to buy the next instrument, and today I am only missing one instrument - a rotary valved C-trumpet of my own design (not TARV). The covid pandemic got in the way of that one and I have learned some stuff in the mean time that changed the game.

Do we really have a "problem" or is life in general simply a challenge sometimes?

To be honest, one of the things that irritated me most at Trumpetmaster was the lowest common denominator thinking for conflict resolution. I was often accused of "abusing" my moderator position when having an opinion. There were enough members that felt "attacked" when called out on something controversial that they posted. My life was threatened twice and I had to go to the police station (in Germany) twice to make statements (different issues).

Sure, there are certain things that I consider "below the belt". Do I need "rules" to deal with that? (no) Do such rules simply move the attitude and danger "underground". (yes)

I think that lowest common denominator is the end of any society. I think that vehemently disagreeing is not a bad thing. As this is an open internet forum, there is no law requiring TrumpetBoards to let everyone in or even throwing them out with no reason given.

Those that want a haven on the internet for free that bends to the whim of the day simply should stay off line.

In theory, membership could be by audition with a probationary period - just like with any professional symphony orchestra on the planet.

I do not have to like anyone elses opinion. I certainly treasure their ability to have it however.

My personal opinion is that what is missing is not "rules", it is respect. By respect, I mean finding out what qualifications one has to make a definitive statement, and if the qualifications are "high enough", treating those statements as well founded - even if I do not agree. Unfortunately there are a lot of people with no qualifications that are powerful posters - but with no redeeming value. Those people would not DREAM of standing up at ITG and saying the same things that they post.

Have a great week. Stay healthy!

Robin

@JorgePD said in Did anyone made a copy of "The Circle of Breath":

Would working on the circle of breath be part of your warm up?

It is the core of everything that I do. If I have time for a warmup, for sure. If not, some other time of the day. We need to stay connected to the needs of our bodies and attitudes.

Even so, without a degree, you won’t even get an Army Band job.
The problem is not the degree, it is the attitude that someone can get. Once you think that you are something special, the bar for acceptance goes way up. If you have the degree and are humble, you simply have prepared well!

I say YES, if you can, you should. Everything that we learn can’t be taken away - even learning to be an ass.

Prepare, stay humble, work hard and thoughtfully, be generous. It pays off in ways no bean counter can quantify!

I had an elderly tuba playing student that got back to playing before he could even speak again. Tongue/breath coordination helped a whole lot as did forming the embouchure. What helped most was playing in front of a mirror which offered at least optical feedback before the sense of „feel“ came back.

My recommendation for practice is to take notes and rejoice in accomplished „small steps“! This is my strategy for all students, but especially if we have a temporary or permanent handicap, we need all of the objectiveness that we can find.

Moderation is in fact a double edged sword. On the one side, posting shows us the character of the poster - a measure by which we can decide what is worth reading. Postings also generate context that gets lost when things disappear. I agree that the best way is to "edit" the offense, clearly label the edit with the name of who edited and why. Deleting complete posts is on occasion necessary because of the content.

My experience at TrumpetMaster with PMing offenders was not generally positive (exceptions proving the rule). For someone with no sense of what freedom of speech costs, you cannot teach them this online. Often it is better to part ways.

After TrumpetMaster went down (with no warning or first hand information to this date), I reviewed my online activity and decided that I would not jump in to any new forum with the same "attitude". Some here surely welcome this. To be honest, I have found no trumpet forum where I "take home" as much as I invest. There are other forums where we stretch the envelope however. The mix of users is different, with less casual approaches to the technology. This is where my energy is going these days. Here, I am very content to browse and occasionally post - without repeating myself as much as I did at TrumpetMaster. I also seem not to be the focus of hate anymore (regardless of the underlying reasons).

In this respect, I too am a bit frustrated, but that is my problem where the trumpet is concerned. I am less interested in entertainment and more interested in what motivates players to take that "next step".

Fortunately, I have no site issues with MacOS and Safari. I am happy that someone decided to run and offer the TMers a new home.

@OldSchoolEuph said in PLEASE KEEP CIVIL!:

@ROWUK - I always found disagreeing with you on TM both entertaining and enlightening. (and sometimes quite a challenge as we dont necessarily disagree on much). The back & forth of differing experience and differing understandings helps root out truth - I will always support that, and found you to be one of the most valuable contributors in that regard.

So the issue is civility. Is it not possible to moderate a forum in such manner as civil discourse, civil debate, is possible? The only challenge is for a moderator to manage to suppress his/her own bias - which some do better at than others.

I fully agree - but discourse like range must be practiced until both sides find equilibrium (winning or losing all the time is not fun...). Squelching the post early only means that there is a winner (the admin or moderator) and a loser (devils advocate?). That is NOT a good situation in my view.

I have a view that if on earth war outbreaks, the politicians have failed - not the military. The same goes here. If we can't "reel a member in", is the problem the member, the tactical exercize or a problem with the community. I have a personal feeling about this, but am not stuck on any of those choices.

Let's take this thread. I have posted some pretty clear thoughts - no admin or moderator has engaged those thoughts. Why is that? I mention "class clowning" threads - of course I have specific members in mind - no response. What does this place stand for? Do we even have a direction or is this just a trumpet lounge with no HOT coffee, cold beer, Whiskey, Cognac or Schnaps - just warm to cool sweet mixed drinks? Well, I am diabetic and sugar is not one of my "vices" (it wasn't at TrumpetMaster either). I happen to like hot, cold and taste explosions on the tongue.

In the end, I do ask why I come back here. I am not even motivated to challenge other posts because I know how they will develop if I try. That was generally not the case in the "old world". There were a lot of "challenges" some died due to lack of argumentation, some ran in circles for months, some got "ugly" because one of the parties felt "attacked" or unfairly treated (probably my bad back then although I do have an opinion about insecure people on the internet). Some resulted in apologies. In the "uncivil threads" only the 4 letter words were dealt with. Issues concerning prejudice or hidden racism were more difficult.

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not criticizing any member, admin or moderator. I am criticizing what I see: paler shades of gray. If that is what the community wants, cool for the community. I am trying to get to the meat of the issue here. I do expect more response - especially from those with "more power". Luke warm is NOT an option (neither is war).

1. It is really tough to get the human lips vibrating at a useful frequency without air...
2. Yes, we can excite a standing wave in a trumpet with a speaker or piezoelectric device without "blowing air"
3. An efficient embouchure needs LESS blowing than an inefficient one
4. That efficient embouchure created an optimal relationship between muscle tension around the lips and the pressure (not speed) of the air that we blow.
5. The nature of the original question is conducive to a lot of useless posting/arguing semantics
6. the best players have the best control of their air, body use and embouchure tension.

Perfect pitch is a curse not a blessing. If you have perfect pitch A=440, what happens when the orchestra tunes to 441, 442, 445? What happens when playing outdoors and the pitch drops to A=438, 435? What about if you are playing in any historical pitch (A=415, 420/430).

@barliman2001 My take is that the body talks to us - and we make decisions based on what we heard and understood. Soft, slow, easy repetitions, long tones without articulation in the beginning - just exhale into the horn and let come what comes. Do this for a couple of days. If your body does not complain, add articulation. Avoid anything with compression.

Very nice!

What would be the purpose? To rename Trumpetboards? To get any traffic that might still be looking for TrumpetMaster?

I wrote e'mails to admins and hosters, researched the blocking of the site but got no answers. I know of a couple of legal actions that fizzled out but nothing that would have locked the site down.

I think that you have done an admirable job giving the orphaned a home. Admins are clear about their actions and are willing to "discuss" decisions. I do have the impression that the troublemakers did not migrate.

I see no use for the domain if we can not restore content.

Thank you for digging this out. I had as much fun putting it originally together as many had after using it for a while.