Best posts made by ROWUK

@_mark_
Hi Mark,
the biggest issue is simply giving yourself enough time to build the right habits the first time around. The trumpet is first and foremost a "wind instrument", and that should be your focus.

Most trumpeters go through various stages of development. We start with "whatever we can get" and advance to a level that is hard to break though. Then we figure something out (or get help) and the next step comes along. At one point in time, we all have a bit of proficiency BUT want more range and end up using pressure to get it. This is legitimate, as pressure works - up to a point. The problem is, if we build a pressure habit, we will have to break it to get to the next step. Habits are tough to break as any drinker/smoker can tell us.

When we are at this stage, we need to ask the questions - how much is improvement worth and when does it make sense to make any changes. Very often a decision is made in mid playing season and the player only ends up screwing up his own reputation.

We make changes out of playing season! We can lay the plans and make preparations but never ever take a risk during times when we can play in public!

As far as teeth go, mine are crooked and I played to the side for 30 years. Then I mage some changes in my routine (more lipslurs and longtones), and the embouchure wandered more or less to the middle where I have been playing for the last 25 years.

I had an accident 18 months ago and now have a full denture instead the bottom teeth (no choice). Thanks to the Corona season, I had time to adjust and my playing is about where it was before the accident. My Circle of Breath, Earl Irons lip flexibilities, long tones and a lot of hymnbook were the way back.

As far as a teacher goes, I really do recommend getting some lessons early to at least get the daily routine, body use and ones own expectations pointed in the right direction. After that, success is very dependent on the players motivations. Even after 55 years of playing at all levels, I still take occasional lessons - some trumpet, some body use. There is still a whole lot to learn.

Best regards and good luck,

Rowuk

"Stiffer" and "faster" are two completely different things.

My experience is that the speed of the valve is based on mass, proper break in, correct oiling and freedom from aerosols/deposits - not spring tension. If any of these factors are not tightly controlled, we can have a stiffer spring, but no increase in performance. Stretching a spring offers no performance increase at all and the possibility that the spring is no longer true which would actually hurt performance.

That being said, I have never had a trumpet after cleaning and adjustment that was too slow with the standard springs. I did have a period where I wanted a stiffer feel - that actually made me more consciously bang the valves down.

Let us remember that there are two parts to valve action - first down, then back up. Stiffer springs can very well slow down the down stroke by increasing resistance to compression. Our fingers do not behave in a linear fashion.

My tip is to use "drones". Single bass notes that can be generated with a keyboard or PC. For instance, you create a low concert Bb (bass clef) drone and just let that note play. Then you slowly play a C scale on your trumpet - recognizing the effects of each note compared to the drone. After a short while, your ear/brain guides you to the most favorable relationships. Then you create a low F drone and play the same C scale - learning to savor each relationship. Then you follow up with Eb, C, D and others! After a while (a month or so) a B natural drone with a C scale on the trumpet becomes enjoyable (to you).
Ear training is developing habits. It is best to slowly develop habits. That way there is no artificial "pressure" mentally or mechanically!

@Kehaulani said in PLEASE KEEP CIVIL!:

This is almost Zen like. Looking at the finger pointing at the moon instead of looking at the moon, itself.

We seem to spend an awful amount of time talking about how we should talk about things trumpet/musical rather than talking about trumpet/music itself.

I certainly agee Kehaulani. The art of communication (lets say between a teacher and student) is vital in finding common ground to lead the student to better awareness on how to build better habits. With Corona, we see increased attempts to give lessons on line. I really question how effective this can be when I am not in the same room with the student.

Just imagine a student asking how to produce vibrato - in a 1 on 1 lesson, in a lesson with 6 teachers each with a different opinion, in trumpet forum.
The single teacher in a private lesson would (hopefully) demonstrate, explain the context, history of the different types - as well as showing that certain music does not need it at all.
The group of qualified teachers “compete”. The lead trumpeter has his thing, the symphonic player another, the teacher without a lot of practical experience yet another - even although all of those teachers have a valid opinion, what does the student understand?
Advice in a forum is a two edged sword as advice appears often with no regard to what the student even can understand or the qualifications. When the posters with advice disagree, it can get emotional - especially with “snipers”, “lack of psychologically sound moderation”, frustration, differing levels of qualification, class clown. It is a question if everyone posts thoughtfully, if they post to get their post count higher, if they need the forum as a vent for personal issues. I see on most posts that the original posters intention is lost at the latest by 4 or 5 “answers”.

Let us take another instance: I had an accident last year and lost some teeth. I now have full lower dentures - but never openly asked for advice here. Why is that? To be honest - for the reason that some liked my posting at TrumpetMaster - I asked questions first to get to the root of the issue instead of just vomiting an answer immediately. Are there any members that have a process for comparing dental creme including how long it lasts, resistance to coffee breaks, strength of the bond vs time, research on Articulation against plastic instead of teeth, I could think of many more issues to compare. I am sure that from the first 10 posts 6 would frustrate me. That certainly would influence my ability to keep my “civility” at the lowest common denominator. Maybe I have the wrong expectations. When I go to a doctor with a pain, I am not looking for a pill or a couple of days off. If the pain is acute, perhaps treatment to gain time until the proper diagnosis is possible.

The discussion here in this thread is exemplary of something far different. No one asked why escalation occured - “Keep it Civil” is just a bandaid - a lame attempt to keep an infection from spreading. I would insist that a band aid on top of a festering wound is not the best solution - although for a while, out of sight is out of mind. We may need some time until a diagnosis is possible, but I do not see the questions even being asked.

Believe me, the loss of TrumpetMaster was a good and bad thing. For me, it means a lot less time invested (which is good for many other things). Even although many of the same members moved here, the “depth” and “color” are the issues that I see as needing the most attention.

We could start with what a member has to tolerate instead of what ball and chain membership applies.
Example:
My definition of “ignorant” is not an insult, rather a description of someone that chooses to IGNORE the truth. If I call someone IGNORANT, it is a straight to the core issue description of lack of base to communicate. I am sure that me calling someone ignorant here would be considered “not civil”. However - when I do use the label ignorant, the discussion generally goes immediately where I want it to - addressing the problem (ignorance) instead of continuing the drivel.

Keeping it civil is a result, not a rule in my world. In college, there were ways to challenge a professor and ways to get thrown out of class. They were based on procedure, respect and content.

I remember reading about Schilke trying out lead, glass and other stuff for bell material. I remember the quotes about overtones. My own tests have shown a lot of this to be myths. As fine as the Schilke trumpets are, I never understood the need for Renolds „exaggerations“ (not just with the bell myths). I have played and measured plastic, wood, carbon fiber, pure silver, bronze, brass, copper, concrete and glass. The overtones on ALL OF THEM were the exact same frequencies, just varying in amplitude a bit. The shape played the biggest role in the tone. The biggest challenge with the instrument is how we hear ourselves. The thickness and temper of the bell as well as the bracing control what we hear and how our ears and brain react. The harder it is to hear ourselves, the more we think that we need more air.

The safest place to cut a trumpet is where the bell enters the valve block. Cutting it at the tuning slide can make for some wacky intonation.

Let us not forget that there ARE many "students" that benefit from dominating teachers. Some people actually "beg" for this dominance (not just in the trumpet world). For the rest of us, we generally get lucky and find someone where the "chemistry" lines up or at least where personal motivation is possible.

I basically disagree with most of the online schemes as I need a better picture of what the whole body is doing. I do not want to reduce the efforts of online teachers to a practice monitor, but my experience shows a predominance of exactly that. Integrating body use, breathing, technique and musical expression is a HUGE thing and working with people that have not had structure is an even bigger deal. It takes (too much) time just to find a common vocabulary!

At the end of the day, we match expectations with results and the real scammers are those willing to just take the money and run after blaming the students for the rest...

As far as responding to teachers like this. I am most satisfied with NOT FEEDING THE TROLLS. I do not engage them, I do not seek satisfaction by having the last word. At Trumpetmaster, I gave them a vacation if they turned the heat up online (Kurt Thompson comes to mind).

My answer would be: "after considering all of the options, I have come to the understanding that our goals do not line up. Thank you for your patience." Then I block the e'mail address to prevent further "itch to respond".

Youtube Video

You want to watch this!

@Kehaulani said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

So I'm a little confused.

Could we summarize, then, in layman's terms, that the amount of air required doesn't necessarily depend upon what the bore size is but, rather, upon the collective design of the horn which includes a myriad of factors?

In other words, do some horns take "more air", horn-by-horn, depending on how it's constructed rather than on bore size alone?

Exactly this - horn by horn, depending on how it is constructed, how we hear ourselves, the efficiency of the entire body/mind/mouthpiece/trumpet/playing environment system. Even the term "amount of air" is not correct as our bodies have no measure of this except running out before a phrase is finished. We can believe that the horn is a loose blow indoors, we take it out to an open lake and the same system is like blowing into a brick wall!

I feel that the consummate trumpeter needs it all. They need to be able to play with and without it, they need hand, jaw and gut vibrato. Above all, they need the musical intelligence to know the difference.

Someone noticing "too much vibrato" means that the player does not understand their audience!

This is a thread where it is very easy to be "unkind"...

The fact that you "absolutely CANNOT play 1st chair, screaming high, Maynard Ferguson, Bill Chase, style of music" puts you in the same boat with just about everyone else here. Even if there were a mouthpiece that "aided" the high register, there are many compelling reasons not to share that "secret". Maybe so much - your Bach 3C and Curry 3M CAN cut it...

Endurance is not a function of a 3C or Curry equivalent. It is the result of us reducing the amount of tension necessary to play. That is accomplished with superior breathing and body use techniques as well as a LOT of very soft playing to train lower embouchure tension.

The width of the mouthpiece is not indicative of a specific range or endurance and there is most certainly a "cost of business" when we start switching around.

The Bach 3C is as close to standard magic as it gets. It has a slightly sharp inner rim to get the sound started more easily. It is average in size in relation to rim, cup and backbore. For commercial type playing, it is certainly not a bad choice. If you are having a rough time with it, I would not expect another mouthpiece to perform "better". I would focus more on the basics of sound production and get those habits in line with your dental situation. I am facing a dental situation myself and look forward to practicing what I have preached - even to students with braces.

In my world, we are creatures of habit. I am convinced that the „where“ is secondary, what we need is „stable“. This gives us a reliable target for development.

Recently, I have been spending a lot of time on the natural trumpet. The mouthpiece there is huge(19.5mm) and the proportion of upper to lower lip far different than with my „modern“ trumpets. This seems to be insignificant for playing. We just need a very stable base in everything that we do.

Generally, embouchure questions only come up when something is not working. There seems to be the blind assumption that we change one thing and are cured. This has NEVER worked. In my teaching, body use and breathing come first, then a relaxed exhale into the note. We build stability over time by strengthening the foundation and not moving too fast to get an octave more in 4 weeks before an audition. The attitude about preparation is the biggest reason that we get into trouble. We need to play things out of our scope because we did not improve the scope when we should have.

Generally, a good program with lipslurs can improve the embouchure by evolution instead of cold turkey revolution.

@Kehaulani said in Not really a "mouthpiece safari" but the need for a "saving grace" type of mouthpiece...:

rowuk tell me if I'm off track. I would just add these observations.

Shallower cups (not diameters), can emphasise the upper partials and de-emphasise the lower ones, aiding the sound to being more easily heard if playing lead or in an electric combo. This is an acoustic phenomenon, not a range building one.

Actually the cup is an acoustic filter between the lips and the resonance of the instrument. A deep cup filters the upper harmonics creating a darker sound. That being said, a shallow cup has more "compression" creating a "stiffer" cushion against our lips. This in fact could aid properly trained chops in the upper register. The idea is equilibrium - our blow and the air cushion of the cup create a fluid instance where the lips can freely open and close. IF our embouchure is not developed enough, we apply armstrong and all bets are off about attaining equilibrium. You see, when our blow is stronger than the backpressure of the cup air cushion, our lips protrude more deeply in the cup, changing the geometry of the embouchure and possibly even bottoming out. With slighly deeper "standard" mouthpieces, this danger hardly exists.

Deep cups, for many, are just harder to sustain playing high notes over a long period of time, and generally enhance the roundness or depth of the tone, pushing out the lower partials at the trade-off of the upper ones.

Only when we are leveraging our face muscles instead of letting the horn do the work!

And some mouthpieces just enhance a certain sound preference.

This is a HUGE issue. As I have often posted, how we hear ourselves determines what we believe that the trumpet is doing. Play in a nice room - get the warm fuzzies, then take that same trumpet/mouthpiece and attitude and play outdoors in an open space - endurance goes down, the amount of work seems to go up - although all that has changed is how we hear ourselves! I will maintain that most players have a VERY WARPED concept of what they like and what is good for them. That underdeveloped "opinion" limits their playing in serious ways!.

This doesn't mean that any of these factors can't be "overcome", in and of themselves. To use an analogy though, you can get from New Hampshire to California in a BMW or a Volkswagen Beetle. It just depends on how you want to travel.

***I am not sure that nature needs to be overcome. The rules of engagement are very clear - get a daily routine for maintenance (not improvement) and stick to it. This is like treating diabetes. If we regard the ceremony of injecting insulin as "overcoming" the symptoms of diabetes - we have already lost the battle. Our bodies are screaming for a different type of eating ceremony and we just apply a bandaid. In May this year, my own diabetes got worse. I got a new diabetologist and we decided on a new strategy. Inside of a month, I was able to reduce the quantity of insulin by 50%. I changed the eating ceremony - was never hungry and have been losing about 1 to 2 pounds per month. I currently have the best medium term results since 2011.

It is no different with the trumpet. There are so many "microfactors" that we need to commit to "second nature". This is why I am allergic to mouthpiece discussions and embouchure changes - not because they have no value, rather because our bodies are telling us what we need to know and we are not listening or able to hear - so we come up with "hairbrained" schemes that simply satisfy our urge to "do something" but NEVER give us the results (if we are taking notes).

The single greatest improvement for the casual player is the daily routine. Like with diabetes -> when the input is right, the output is far less invasive.***

Mark, as you may have noticed, any particular fingering can produce multiple notes. That is why 3 valves on the trumpet (with 9 possible combinations) can produce 30 to 40 different notes.
Just taking the open trumpet (no valves pressed) we can play a pedal C (one wavelength in the horn), low C (2 wavelengths), G (3 wavelengths), 3rd space c(4 wavelengths), 4th space e (5 wavelengths), top of staff g (6 wavelengths), high Bb (7 wavelengths) and high c (8 wavelengths).

What is happening to you is that you are playing a „G“ (3 wavelengths) and because your embouchure is staying tense, the note does not go down, rather jumps to the Bb which is the next note possible with the first valve.

Open horn: Pedal C, C, G, c, e, g, Bb, high c
2nd valve: Pedal B, B, F#, b, d#, f#, a, high b
1st valve: Pedal Bb, Bb, F, Bb, d, f, Ab, high Bb
1+2 valve: Pedal A, A, E, a, c#, e, g, high a
2+3 valve: Pedal Ab, Ab, Eb, Ab, c, Eb, high Ab
1+3 valve: Pedal G, G, D, g, b, d, top of staff g
1+2+3 valve: Pedal F#, F#, C#, F#, a#, c#, e, top of staff f#.

Any of the good trumpet method books have tables where they show this list. It is one of the basics of learning a brass instrument. As our lips are the motor „generating“ the sound, we must invest on controlling tension of the embouchure to produce the desired tones at will. A six pack in our face is the worst approach. We must think more like surgeons - fine motor activity. Many repetitions are required (thousands) until we perfect a certain aspect.

Relax your embouchure and you will get the F instead of the Bb.

We are creatures of habit and I firmly believe that THIS is the #1 reason for mouthpiece safaris not working.
I believe that we need MONTHS to determine if a mouthpiece is good for us. The process is called acclimation. We must practice, adapt and perform to cover our use cases.

My personal practice is, and has always been to cold turkey switch and stick with the "new" for at least 2 months - no switching back to the original. After that two - three months, I retry the original and note the differences. My last switch was in 1996.

@barliman2001 Thank you Elmar!

In my world, range is not really a function of mouthpiece or embouchure, it is "mostly" the synergy between the blow and lip tension. I can play my highest notes when I am most relaxed. When I increase embouchure tension, I have to "blow harder" and that makes life more "difficult".

My "secret" for range is slowing down. Longtones with minimal (not zero) lip or mouthpiece pressure. Once the juices are flowing, then lots of EASY lipslurs. I use the Earl Irons Lip Flexibilities book.

Before we get to mechanics, we have to get our breathing under control. I use a visualisation called "the circle of breath". Envision a large circle. From 6:00 to 12:00 is inhale, from 12:00 to 6:00 is exhale. Please note that the transition from inhale to exhale is perfectly smooth - just like the circle. That means that your inhale is timed to be finished exactly at 12:00 and that you have not gone into "compression" - where you need to release tension to even exhale. At 6:00 the opposite happens.

I am talking about practice habits here to "organize" breathing/body use and playing. When performing, we can not always maintain "best practices" as the RESULTS justify the means. Our daily practice is to refine the bodies part of playing and generally less tension is more range, articulation, tone and endurance.

Congratulations!
I personally would not sell off the tried and true so soon. Wait 6 months and THEN you can be sure that the acclimation process is complete. I am not saying that there is something wrong with your choice. I am saying that we are creatures of habit and breaking old habits is a process that does not ALWAYS work.
That being said, my last mouthpiece switch was cold turkey in 1996 and I never looked back. I kept the old mouthpieces for a long time but never tried them out as the new mouthpiece stayed feeling good.

Enjoy!

This is not an opportunity for me to rant, but here would be a shortlist of things that would make things more enjoyable in my opinion:

1. Threads that stay on topic - splitting threads when they get off topic.
2. an end to the "class clown" posts in many threads. I do not get the humor.
3. Method/process instead of opinion - thinking and posting about how we got to a decision is more important to me than throwing up on the music stand!
4. The ability to criticize without starting a war. I really believe in challenging beliefs (even my own).
5. I often get the feeling that certain members should be asking questions instead of making statements. It is hard to put that in print without dropping a bomb.

I would like to see some true "in thread tutorship". Maybe even restricted to 2 people! That requires a willing, thoughtful student and a teacher with their heart in the right place. When someone comes here to visit and 10 people pile on (many perhaps not even qualified), it is overwhelming. At TrumpetMaster, several of us did this by PM to keep the Riff-Raff out.

Serious pimping of trumpets (not eye candy) is something that we occasionally get to see - but without objective reviews (except for Ivan).

Very, very polished. Technically and musically more than what I was used to hearing from the original band. BUT and this is a VERY big but: the original band created the venue, charts, market. Let us see how much original new material will be composed...

I don't think that Lee Loughnane could have played these trumpet parts. I have a slight preference for Peter Ceteras voice and Terry Kaths guitar.

I was not aware of this band - thanks for the link!

The bore size of a trumpet is pretty much insignificant as a single parameter. There are bright and dark small and large bore trumpets, there are free blowing large and small bore trumpets. The achievable volume is not a function of the bore, rather the efficiency of the working system. We are not listening to an amplified buzz of the lips, rather a resonance (standing wave) in the horn. Due to a mismatch in the length of the horn and the bell shape, a small portion of that resonance “leaks” out. That is what we hear.

It is safe to say that most trumpet building companies do not have a specific sound color that they are building. They may have - by luck, found something that works and is saleable. Contrast this to the high end automobile industry where the sound of an exhaust system, slamming door, road noise leaking into the passenger area are all carefully engineered.

What is the common denominator of Schilke trumpets? I would say manufacturing quality, not a tonal characteristic. Bach is known for their core - something that has not changed or improved for decades. Yamaha on the other hand reinvented the trumpet sound with a Xeno. There is a characteristic tone through the whole range of those trumpets. The better Bachs from many companies also offer no real tonal advantage and those companies building them did not have tone as the goal, rather only sales.

In my world, next to Yamaha is Monette. He is not the Burger King of trumpets, you don’t get it your way. The trumpets have a characteristic sound that is consistent through ALL of the models.

There is plenty of room for innovation. We simply need to start asking the right questions and that starts maybe 50 feet in front of the horn. My first question would be “do trumpets need to be as loud as they are”. I believe that most modern trumpets have a dramatically comprimised tonal palette of colors due to the fact that they were built for louder. The first lawsuits have been won because of the damage that the brass intensity causes in orchestras. Can’t we get that glorious halo around the sound at a lower loudness? Most certainly - but not from companies selling bore size.

Many want simple answers to complex questions. That is normally a sign of something not good ahead. That is how politics work and we all know how that ends up.