Best posts made by ROWUK

@oldschooleuph Even at the end of Mt. Vernon, the horns simply did not have the build quality of the "competition". That does not necessarily have anything to do with playing "well". Even a "bad" Bach had that magic core and adjusting to the playing characteristics was just something that we did back then.

The perception of the Mt. Vernons today is considerably different although the lacquer and valve issues are the two things normally necessary when refurbishing. Either the Bach lacquer was not so good or the horns were not prepped properly.

There is a swiss artisan Rene Spada that disassembles Bachs and rebuilds them with swiss precision. In my view, they are what Bach should have been all along. The Spada Bachs are simply that much better using only Bach parts. Even if I had a Mt. Vernon, I would have it disassembled, cleaned and put back together with Spadas precision and attitude. There are other artisans. I use one Rainer Jordan who has his shop close to Frankfurt.

I have had 3 Bach trumpets. A 180 B172* (new picked at Giardinellis in New York but rebuilt by Spada), a 180 B25 and a C229H (also bought from Giardinellis). I still have the 229 although in the mean time, it has been completely disassembled and rebuilt without tension as well as getting a tuning bell and a new leadpipe.

Breaking in the valves can take a while. The tighter the tolerances, the longer it takes.

I also use T2 oil which is on the very thin side - which is good for tight valves.

In many cases, the player does not push the valves down straight when playing. When valves are not broken in, that can cause them to bind. The solution is to practice more, fast and slow which will cause minor wear (breaking in) according to the geometry of your hand.

A second possibility is the grip of death from the left hand. I remember in the Renold Schilke days his new horns needing considerable break in and easing up the intensity of the left hand grip went a long way in improving the situation.

It is important that you inform your dealer and wait for instructions. I would be VERY hesitant to have any hack try to polish something out. The correct procedure is called lapping.

It looks like a standard Bach to me. It has the finger ring, stop rod and double tuning slide brace.

I don't really think about what trumpet any artist plays, I only think about what they accomplished and with Alan, the list is long!

The adjustable ring is yet another reason why student instruments do not respond as well as more "professional" ones. Play a series of octave slurs at medium loudness (especially second line G to top of stave) and you will notice a HUGE difference with and without the adjustable ring.
I have NEVER had a student that needed a ring in a different position. In the beginning the pinky goes in the ring and during puberty (when the third slide becomes more important) the ring finger. If the third slide is well maintained, both fingers work well enough!
While we are at it, we teachers have to insure that the valves are not held with a "grip of death", rather just squeezing enough for stability. This also improves response dramatically!

@_mark_ Then all that is left is to be patient and remember that thousands of low impact repetitions build good habits. Getting in a hurry is pure poison. I have a glass of water near my practice chair. If things get congested (tonguing, breathing, chops, brain), it is amazing how much a sip of water helps.

Based on an instrument that they built for Joe Alessi. Hmmm. Aren't all trombones (even the el cheapo ones) based on some great
instrument? When I read marketing trash like this, I wonder why they do not build that exact model. With todays material science and still available "old world" manufacturing skills, it is certainly possible!

@kehaulani said in Tough Decision to make:

Good grief. Isn't the OP's question simply which of two horns to buy? You play them both and pick the one that plays and sounds the best and is well built.. If it's a tie, go with nostalgia or it's mystique to you.

It's not rocket science or polemics or pseudo creative writing 101.

If it were only this easy. There are so many reasons to buy a horn. I have 20+ and identify with each one. Every one has its use case. They all get played without having to make up stories about why.

That being said, we are creatures of habit and I am convinced that it takes months to really acclimate - then the sound and blow is considerably different than the first impression.

@administrator There are fixes for the intonation issues on Bach C Trumpets. My mid '70s 229 CL is VERY in tune. No alternate fingerings needed. My modifications were extensive.

Ivan from Jaeger trumpets visited a while back. He also knows what to do. We had a great time playing duets. I still have not managed to visit him in south Germany yet, but I will be in his area this summer and will make the effort.

Still useful to learn about what trumpet sound Brahms, Wagner, (Richard) Strauss, Bruckner and Mahler had in their heads when composing their monumental works.

The notion that tightly slotting horns are easier to play in tune is a myth in my world. We do not play "well tempered" we play relative to the other notes. This is called "just tuning". We need the horn to respond evenly because we need to bend the pitch to stay in tune in relation to others.

The notion of how a horn "slots" has more to do with how well we hear ourselves. In an overly reverberant bathroom or staircase, an instrument will appear to slot better than that same instrument when played outdoors on a cold day. If we insert earplugs (in our ears), the horn will slot noticably worse than if we just got our ears cleaned.

Sure, we want instruments that can securely be played in tune. I believe that the physics of resonance place limits on what works. I also would not agree that heavy instruments necessarily have less overtones. My heaviest trumpet is the one that is most easy to play and projects the best. It is the most brilliant too.

In many cases, we can improve instruments that are difficult to play. This can be accomplished by moving braces, cleaning the grunge out, aligning the valves and to a certain extent improving the mouthpiece shank/receiver connection. Sometimes a smaller mouthpiece can make our sound get to our ears more easily. I have had several students wanting to get a "darker sound" that ended up just being mushy. Recording their sound with various instruments can prove to them that they were following a "less worthy" goal.

Heavier valve caps on instruments not designed for them can make resonance more stable but as a rule have a cost in sound and intonation.

There is also a notion that some instruments project in a way making them easier to hear. This can help match the expectations in our heads to what the trumpet actually sounds like. When we match instruments to our sound concept, they are easier to play.

@JWM The only way to know if it is you is to have someone way better than you play the horn.
I would say the chances are 99.999% that it is you. There are essentially NEVER any notes missing unless there is a leak and then it is not "a" high notes that get s lost, rather usually in the lower octave.

@Trumpetb This is my last comment to you:
The subject in this thread is very specific. Your (too) many words seem more like damage control than a better analysis.
I have said everything applicable and will not engage with you in completely unrelated issues.
You can try to bend my words, my meaning whatever, this is not my problem. It is obvious that you know better. What motivation you have to continue is of no interest to me. In my world, people that choose to ignore are "ignorant", meaning conciously choosing to ignore supporting facts. In earlier years, I in fact had a crusade against mouthpiece safaris that have ruined more players than ever helped. Just observing the used mouthpiece market it becomes apparent where the empty promises of range, endurance and sound are. I "saved" several students from this obsession.

It is VERY EASY to tell if an issue is the player or the equipment. The OPs description is perfectly adequate for my analysis and qualified suggestion. There are telltale signs indicating if there is something about a mouthpiece that is not optimal. None in this thread for the OP and none for you based on what you report about your own playing.

The most damaging advice for the question presented in this thread in my opinion is, "just try it". We have an acclimation period and as I said, that can be months. When playing around with our habits, certain controls MUST be met to have a qualified result.

Do not expect any further comments to your posting. It already has gone far beyond anything that I would normally even bother with.