Best posts made by ROWUK

@trumpetb I will insist that "stretching" the spring will not improve performance. We may be able to squeeze a bit more life out of it, but if our stretch is NOT ABSOLUTELY STRAIGHT, the spring is damaged and will actually have worse performance.
Stretching a spring for more tension also assumes that the stretched wire will hold the stretch, that would have to be proven on a case by case basis.

I would insist that Hookes law does not apply here.

F = kx

“F” being the amount of push or pull is on the spring

“k” being a constant, indicating the stiffness of the spring

“x” being the distance the spring was pushed or pulled

Our distance that we stretched is a deformation of the wire and the "new" base for testing. Stretching the spring means that we exceed its elasticity, thus destroying all of the original parameters. What K is left after deformation depends on the spring material and tension. Now, if we retemper after stretch, we have a new animal. I have never read about retempering valve springs.

The notion that tightly slotting horns are easier to play in tune is a myth in my world. We do not play "well tempered" we play relative to the other notes. This is called "just tuning". We need the horn to respond evenly because we need to bend the pitch to stay in tune in relation to others.

The notion of how a horn "slots" has more to do with how well we hear ourselves. In an overly reverberant bathroom or staircase, an instrument will appear to slot better than that same instrument when played outdoors on a cold day. If we insert earplugs (in our ears), the horn will slot noticably worse than if we just got our ears cleaned.

Sure, we want instruments that can securely be played in tune. I believe that the physics of resonance place limits on what works. I also would not agree that heavy instruments necessarily have less overtones. My heaviest trumpet is the one that is most easy to play and projects the best. It is the most brilliant too.

In many cases, we can improve instruments that are difficult to play. This can be accomplished by moving braces, cleaning the grunge out, aligning the valves and to a certain extent improving the mouthpiece shank/receiver connection. Sometimes a smaller mouthpiece can make our sound get to our ears more easily. I have had several students wanting to get a "darker sound" that ended up just being mushy. Recording their sound with various instruments can prove to them that they were following a "less worthy" goal.

Heavier valve caps on instruments not designed for them can make resonance more stable but as a rule have a cost in sound and intonation.

There is also a notion that some instruments project in a way making them easier to hear. This can help match the expectations in our heads to what the trumpet actually sounds like. When we match instruments to our sound concept, they are easier to play.

I personally never agree with the "lowest common denominator" type of decisions. Something currently very relevant to society in general happened at the New York Philharmonic. It was clear that a thread like this would draw a great variety of responses.

If a member gets out of line (for instance sexually explicit, lies, politics), I would expect a PM from a moderator to that person, perhaps even a short vacation for those not willing to be part of the family, but not locking the whole thread down unless there was a reason. I looked at the thread, do not see anything requiring it to be locked down. If someone has trouble with topics like this, just don't go there. I never really got into TH for this very reason: snipers and trigger happy moderators. I was accused of this at TrumpetMaster, but seldom got any decent feedback when I offered my perspective (even by PM). I basically came to the realization that many were not even interested in learning. They are only looking for a venue and some others to agree.

I think that this is an area where Trumpetboards.com can and should grow. If we can't discuss difficult things, what is the justification for another forum like the rest?

I officially disagree with the decision to lock down the thread. I consider shutting something down because "my question was answered" also to be a very "weak" comment and probably not completely true. It is obvious to me that the question was only partly answered and the admin simply did not want to see the rest on line.

The issue is a big deal (2 premiere players were "fired" because of it) and the thread is a big deal as we know enough to discuss the legalities, how decisions are made and what type of recourse someone charged has. In this case, both players were reinstated, happy end? I think not. We will see if they decide to stay or not.

I guess that we will get no agreement, so let us agree to disagree. Every stretched spring experiment that I know about (with my 55+ years of playing there were a few), have not improved anything. Sticky valves remained sticky, the valves were never faster and more often than not, the scraping noise from bent springs. Pages of irrelevant math do not change the basic premise, so why argue? I have all of the stuff to measure and document the changes (I train our employees and customers to operate and service thermal cutting machines where we use springs in various functions), but have no interest as I have never had a positive experience related to the trumpet or our machines.
I would further advance that springs do not increase playing speed as our fine motor activity is what it is and the quality of the valve lubrication is the deciding factor and very much subject to environmental factors (temperature, aerosols, stroke angle when depressing the valve).
In my world, stiffer springs are for calming the brain of certain players, not increasing performance.
I am always amazed at how smooth and light the action of my valves are after a „maintenance“ by technicians that I trust. I am anally retentive about cleanliness next to godliness when applied to trumpet valves, but still, they apply magic, not springs. They also are very adament about not stretching.

@JWM The only way to know if it is you is to have someone way better than you play the horn.
I would say the chances are 99.999% that it is you. There are essentially NEVER any notes missing unless there is a leak and then it is not "a" high notes that get s lost, rather usually in the lower octave.

I have no specific preference, it just has to be artistically rewarding and not "demo music".

@trumpetb I am in my late 60s and have been playing for over 50 years.
My Bach C229 was purchased in 1974 and still has the original springs
My Monette Raja C was built in 1989/1990 and still has the original springs
My Selmer Radial 2° Model 75 was built in 1974 and still has the original springs
My Selmer Radial 2° D trumpet was built in 1978 and still has the original springs
My Heckel rotary Bb was built in 1938 and still has the original springs
My Getzen 4 valve flugelhorn was built in the 1970s and still has the original springs

The rest of my horns are similar. They ALL get played a lot but do not need stretching or replacement. That being said, my horns do go to a technician every couple of years for a checkup and chemical clean (no ultrasound bath). My suspicion is that the spring gets blamed for valve dirt, distortion and damage because stretching is a supposed "cheaper fix".

I will not deny that there are causes to replace springs, but I see little to no reason to ever stretch - unless the valve has exceptionally long throw (like old Benges). Stretching to fine tune tension simply has no benefit.

The short throw of typical trumpet valves does not cause excessive wear on spring tension. If the valves are regularly cleaned and oiled, the spring has a very easy job and as I noted above, lasts for decades with no hit in performance.

As I previously posted, stretching the spring does unpredictable things to K - the tension. No general statement can be made except that the stretching was not worth it.

@Trumpetb This is my last comment to you:
The subject in this thread is very specific. Your (too) many words seem more like damage control than a better analysis.
I have said everything applicable and will not engage with you in completely unrelated issues.
You can try to bend my words, my meaning whatever, this is not my problem. It is obvious that you know better. What motivation you have to continue is of no interest to me. In my world, people that choose to ignore are "ignorant", meaning conciously choosing to ignore supporting facts. In earlier years, I in fact had a crusade against mouthpiece safaris that have ruined more players than ever helped. Just observing the used mouthpiece market it becomes apparent where the empty promises of range, endurance and sound are. I "saved" several students from this obsession.

It is VERY EASY to tell if an issue is the player or the equipment. The OPs description is perfectly adequate for my analysis and qualified suggestion. There are telltale signs indicating if there is something about a mouthpiece that is not optimal. None in this thread for the OP and none for you based on what you report about your own playing.

The most damaging advice for the question presented in this thread in my opinion is, "just try it". We have an acclimation period and as I said, that can be months. When playing around with our habits, certain controls MUST be met to have a qualified result.

Do not expect any further comments to your posting. It already has gone far beyond anything that I would normally even bother with.

@_mark_ Well Hakan Hardenberger is in my view with a couple others, at the top of the heap.

Breaking in the valves can take a while. The tighter the tolerances, the longer it takes.

I also use T2 oil which is on the very thin side - which is good for tight valves.

In many cases, the player does not push the valves down straight when playing. When valves are not broken in, that can cause them to bind. The solution is to practice more, fast and slow which will cause minor wear (breaking in) according to the geometry of your hand.

A second possibility is the grip of death from the left hand. I remember in the Renold Schilke days his new horns needing considerable break in and easing up the intensity of the left hand grip went a long way in improving the situation.

It is important that you inform your dealer and wait for instructions. I would be VERY hesitant to have any hack try to polish something out. The correct procedure is called lapping.

There are wind town bands all over Germany, most with no chance to earn money. There is also a fair amount of freelance work, but a lot of that is being covered by professional musicians with music jobs. Getting a break means having the right teacher and playing well enough for them to want to take you instead of another pro that could also offer them gigs in return.

@curlydoc Wyntons classical recordings are relatively old. I remember the Hummel on a Schilke Eb and the Picc stuff also on a Schilke.
I think that if he were to make a current recording, he probably would get a made to purpose horn from Dave Monette.

Here we go again - uncontrolled empirical evidence called a "solution".

I have no personal grief with any embouchure method. I do have trouble with players that attain upper register without the common sense required to use it.

One thing that I would like to offer here:

If there is any truly killer method for developing the stratospheric register: WHERE ARE ALL OF THE KILLER LEAD PLAYERS USING IT?

Think about this for a minute. Any of the popular methods have hundreds - if not thousands of followers, but we still do not have hundreds of killer lead players. Why might that be? I have thought for at least 40 years about this and here is what I came up with:

1. not enough common sense
2. maybe physiology IS too individual to allow any system to have advantages
3. maybe the sound concept needed is not part of the method - a lead sound is a lot different than a 2nd Brandenburg, Richter, Michael Haydn sound - although the notes are the same
4. maybe all methods are very incomplete
5. maybe musicality and context must come first
6. maybe success is all natural talent (upstream/body use/teeth formation) and luck to find a method that does not muck up the talent

My own teaching searches for the goals of the player. If one of my students wants to be a lead player, then I am the wrong person to bring them there. I can give them enough basics and range, but then they need a real lead player for attitude and context. I do not preach any embouchure method dogmatically and in my over 50 year career, I know of more players worse off than before after attempting to "change their embouchures". The most success has been through evolution, not revolution. I avoid teachers preaching revolution.

The adjustable ring is yet another reason why student instruments do not respond as well as more "professional" ones. Play a series of octave slurs at medium loudness (especially second line G to top of stave) and you will notice a HUGE difference with and without the adjustable ring.
I have NEVER had a student that needed a ring in a different position. In the beginning the pinky goes in the ring and during puberty (when the third slide becomes more important) the ring finger. If the third slide is well maintained, both fingers work well enough!
While we are at it, we teachers have to insure that the valves are not held with a "grip of death", rather just squeezing enough for stability. This also improves response dramatically!

This whole thread is just like every other one where somebody thinks that they are on to something and are completely blinded to reality. The long repetitive posts are a sure giveaway.

I posted this once before - if there was ANY killer system, where are all of the killer players using it? All of the blah, blah about teeth, lips may work for a "few" but a disciple is usually the WORST person to have. They simply lack the holistic view of the world as it is.

The biggest joke is the so called opposition to the method. Just because we do not believe "Sound Advice" does not mean that we discredit Stevens or Costello. I generally oppose zealots of any color. Just let him have his rant on this thread. I really see nothing to discuss.

Traditionally, octaves have ALWAYS started on C. The 4 foot/8 foot/16 foot registers all refer to concert C. A 32 foot organ pipe refers to a C.

If C is the start of an octave, everything else is clear once we decide what to call the C. Here is where tradition has left us with multiple options. C0 to C9 is very clear, but makes it difficult to brag to the uneducated.

For a trumpeter, it is common to refer to pedal C (2nd space bass clef), low C(one line below the treble clef), mid C (third space), high C(2 ledger lines above the treble clef) and double C (an octave above that).

The devils advocate would say that the typical trumpeters double C is only a high concert Bb...

To confuse the hell out of this: Tubas are sold as BB or CC tubas - double Bb or double C;-)

@Kehaulani I am probably 100% dogmatic (not periodic). I like the pleasures of doing things that work. Reaching goals, getting stuff done just appeals to me and the straight and narrow have served me well.

The pedal tone is actually the fundamental, everything else are partials.

@Kehaulani Actually, my brand new lower dentures are making me think a lot about where my tongue is...