Olds Ambassador Eb Trumpet

Bob Pixley

Have any of you ever seen one of these? I bought it from a friend 25 or 30 years ago and have gigged with it maybe 6 times. It has a D slide with it, and plays ok in D, less well in Eb. Anyone else ever played one? I’m interested in other playing impressions.

aTrumpetdude

@Bob-Pixley
I had one for a while, the one I had played horribly out of tune with itself if I'm being honest. It only had the Eb slides though.

Bob Pixley

@aTrumpetdude said in Olds Ambassador Eb Trumpet:

@Bob-Pixley
I had one for a while, the one I had played horribly out of tune with itself if I'm being honest. It only had the Eb slides though.

Yes, it’s pretty difficult to muscle into tune in Eb. I’ve only played it in D on the gigs I’ve used it for (all classical), and it was ok - a few notes needed alternate fingerings, but it was a useable instrument. I guess that’s why I’ve kept it.

Jolter

Is this something someone converted from a Bb, or did they actually make these at the factory?

I once played an Ambassador C conversion and it was a pretty horrible instrument. I think it was someone’s first foray into instrument repair, following some instruction booklet they bought off eBay.

barliman2001

The Ambassador being the Beginners' Model at Olds, I don't expect they made anything but Bb instruments in that line. But the instruments being what they are - reliable, almost indestructible and yet cheap to get, many, many people have tried their hands at changing them into whatever pitch was required. I once even saw an Ab conversion - for a benighted guy who had started playing concert pitch in one of those German Lutheran trombone choirs, and did not want to learn transposing for whenever he was playing in a "normal" band...

Trumpetb

I dont believe this is likely to be a conversion from a Bb

It looks like the spit valves on this instrument are more conventional spit valves typical of the Special, but the Ambassador spit valves are underslung spit valves.

The end of the mouthpiece receiver is of course Fullerton Ambassador, being hexagonal.

The second slide appears to be set at a right angle to the body of the instrument whereas on Ambassadors the second slide is angled strongly back towards the mouthpiece receiver.

Due to these differences I would guess that it is not a conversion from a Bb instrument but is an independently designed instrument.

But this is supposition on my part.

For me the right angle of the second slide most strongly says this is a different instrument than a Bb Ambassador.

Olds as far as I am aware only changed the angle of the second valve in one other instrument and that was the Super, the very early supers had the slide angled towards the bell and later supers reversed this and angled the slide towards the receiver as in the mendez and the recording.

I am unaware of any other Olds with straight out second slide.

This straight out slide perhaps was needed if this was built as an Eb and required a shorter second slide than a Bb and tooling made it convenient to set the slide straight out.

I would defer to more knowledgeable members on this however.

Jolter

@trumpetb said in Olds Ambassador Eb Trumpet:

I am unaware of any other Olds with straight out second slide.

I notice it does not show any particular signs of being a cut-down Bb, and I agree on your observation on that angle. I guess that if the bore was measured, it would be a bit smaller than on a Bb Ambassador, too.

ROWUK

@bob-pixley The Eb Ambassador A11E trumpet is in the 1978 pricelist:
http://rouses.net/trumpet/olds78/olds78price2.htm

The D slide was an additional $25.

I suspect that this was intended for marching band. I do remember some marching charts like El Cumbanchero with Eb parts.

The intonation issues are "solvable".

Dr GO

@trumpetb said in Olds Ambassador Eb Trumpet:

Olds as far as I am aware only changed the angle of the second valve in one other instrument and that was the Super, the very early supers had the slide angled towards the bell and later supers reversed this and angled the slide towards the receiver as in the mendez and the recording.

I have not seen a Super with a changed second valve angle. Do you mean the Super Recording. I do have one of these horns and the second valve is angled out as it is on my Recording.

Dale Proctor

This trumpet is a production model from Olds. The catalog page shown below indicates it was intended for marching band, as Rowuk noted. I (formerly known as Bob Pixley…lol) still have it and it’s still in the case in a closet. BTW, the D slide is a custom one Southeastern Musical Services built for me, not the optional Olds factory slide.

Trumpetb

@Dr Go

No the original Olds Super is an early model of Super and was quite different from the slightly later version of the Super manufactured a few years later.

The change was around 1938 and 1939.

There were several changes, the tone ring was much wider on the earlier model, the bell mandrel was different between the models and the angle of the second slide was flipped from forward to back.

I have no idea why the bell mandrel was changed and what difference that made sonically, but I suspect the two instruments play differently, much as the LA model of Ambassador and the Fullerton model of the Ambassador also play quite differently.

Robb Stewart in his excellent web page on the subject goes into great detail about the specific changes to the Super model in those years with images of both models of Super showing the changes although the bell mandrel change is not an obvious one from the images.

https://www.robbstewart.com/wright-hall-quinby-soprano-1

I deeply suspect that the earliest Super was based upon closely copying the pre war french Besson trumpet as many manufacturers did at that time - I believe that Bach Conn HN White Shilke among others closely copied the pre war french Besson design.

Most of the other manufacturers copies of the Besson design had rear facing second slide but the original Olds Super was unusual in more faithfully copying the forward facing second slide in that first incarnation of the Super.

Interestingly the Mendez which was later claimed to be a close copy of the french Besson had the rear facing second slide as all the Bb Olds instrument models had by that time.

Even Besson swapped the slide direction round in different instruments with some forward some rearwards and some straight out so there was no real consistency here even in Besson.

Hornucopia shows several french Besson Brevetes with second slides pointing in all directions and many towards the bell as in the early Super.

The water however gathers in this configuration and is not easily dumped and all subsequent models post 1939 in the Olds lineup have rear facing second slide possibly to allow for more efficient clearing of moisture during performances.

There was often no other option than to yank the second slide to clear water satisfactorily in the forward facing design or do the instrument spin method both of which are less than desirable during a performance.

Besson themselves reversed the second slide between different models as earlier discussed although the Besson manufacturing history is somewhat confused with Besson uk and Besson France both selling Bessons but with Besson France manufacturing the parts that were assembled in England and then sold as english Bessons often with english valve blocks fitted and not french valve blocks.

It is even said that stashes of Besson instruments that were hidden from Nazis when France was under German occupation were being discovered for many years after the second world war and released into the market with serial numbers that were inconsistent so we cannot assign years to instruments around that time. But that is another story.

tmd

@dale-proctor said in Olds Ambassador Eb Trumpet:

This trumpet is a production model from Olds. The catalog page shown below indicates it was intended for marching band, as Rowuk noted. I (formerly known as Bob Pixley…lol) still have it and it’s still in the case in a closet.

Dale, for some reason, I thought you sold yours.

Mike

Dale Proctor

@tmd

No, I still have it. I’ve flirted a few times with selling it, but no takers…

Newell Post

I wind up playing the Eb parts in a couple of groups. I have a Getzen Eterna D/Eb trumpet that I used to use. Later I broke down and bought an Eb Yamaha Neo cornet. The Yamaha is better and more consistent. But I'm getting too old to cover those Eb parts these days. It seems like the higher horns should logically give you some extra range for free. Not so. Eb is a LOT more work and a completely different experience, no matter what horn you use.

administrator

What a strange instrument. I would be curious to see how such a thing plays. If it's anything like my Super Recording...

Dale Proctor

@administrator said in Olds Ambassador Eb Trumpet:

What a strange instrument. I would be curious to see how such a thing plays. If it's anything like my Super Recording...

I can state with certainty that it doesn’t even play as well as a Bb Olds Ambassador…lol

J. Jericho

@dale-proctor An Olds Embarasser, maybe?

SSmith1226

Anyone have any opinions on this FE Olds E-12D Custom Eb/D Trumpet?

administrator

Opinions, or facts?

SSmith1226

@administrator said in Olds Ambassador Eb Trumpet:

Opinions, or facts?

Opinions based on personal experience, and or facts.
Based on the catalog listings that Rowuk posted, this model appears to be a professional level instrument, compared to the Ambassador level instrument. The question is, has anyone played this model of instrument, or, have any personal experience , or exposure to it. I am not looking for speculation. It appears to be an uncommon model.
Thanks