Just because...

@Dr-GO

My statement was “Sorry to add to this since I just arrived to the discussion. This is not meant in any way as aggression, just clarification of your conclusions. Isopropyl Alcohol, also known as propran-2 ol, propranolol2, Rubbing Alcohol, etc, is not effective against spores.“Alcohols are not recommended for sterilizing medical and surgical materials principally because they lack sporicidal action and they cannot penetrate protein-rich materials. Fatal postoperative wound infections with Clostridium have occurred when alcohols were used to sterilize surgical instruments contaminated with bacterial spores.“

The reason for me posting this correction, specifically about alcohols, including isopropyl alcohol. not being effective against bacterial spores, is not because it is relevant in the trumpet world, but because it is not factually correct.

This is not a comment on hyperimmune or immunoactive lung disease. The subject of Grune’s original post and concluding post was concerned the cleaning and dininfection of his trumpet. In his concluding post he made a statement about spore forming bacteria that was not correct, but also not important in the scheme of things concerning cleaning and disinfection. By washing one’s instrument with soap ( or detergent) and water spore forming organisms are addressed as best they can be short of washing with chemicals that might very well be destructive.
As far as modern, scientifically documented data, there are literally numerous peer reviewed studies, for example showing that soap and water, is far more effective than alcohol based hand sanitizers for prevention of Clostridium Difficile infections in a hospital or office setting. If you don’t believe me, walk into your nearest hospital and look at the sinks in the patient care areas. You will see a sign between the the hand sanitizer dispenser and soap dispenser, like the below one that says was your hands to prevent C. difficile.

I agree that many other factors including terminal room cleaning, antibiotic stewardship, handling of contaminated material etc are important. However, when you as a physician are making rounds in the hospita,l and or nursing home from patient to patient, or seeing patients In the office, and you have hand on examined a patient with a spore forming organism such as C. diff, properly washing your hands will clear 98%+ of the organism and reduce your chance of passing on the organism for colonization or future infection to the next patient. Peer reviewed studies show that using soap and water hand washing in combination with other precautions reduce these infections.

Hand washing with soap and water is significantly more effective at removing C. difficile spores from the hands of volunteers than are ABHRs. Residual spores are readily transferred by a handshake after use of ABHR.

The same general prevention methods are used in every day life as well as the food industry. The following are recommendations from the BostonPublic Health Commission concerning prevention of spread of Clostridia Perfringens, a spore forming organism that can cause diseases from food poisoning to gas gangrene. Hand washing is a central theme again.

How can I prevent Clostridium perfringens and other foodborne illness?
Always wash your hands thoroughly with soap and water before eating, before handling food, after using the toilet, after changing diapers and after handling your pets or cleaning up after them.
Cook all food from animal sources thoroughly, especially poultry. If the meat or poultry is still pink in the center, it is not cooked enough.
When serving foods buffet-style, keep hot foods hot and cold foods cold. Leftover portions of foods should be divided up for storage and cooled in a refrigerator rather than being left at room temperature.
Wash all fruits and vegetables before eating.
Carefully follow “keep refrigerated,” “sell by” and “use by” dates.
Use only clean utensils, dishes and cutting boards to prepare food that is already cooked or will be eaten raw.
Anything you use to prepare raw meat, seafood, or poultry (including your hands and the table or counter top), should be washed thoroughly before you touch any other food.
If you are taking care of someone who has diarrhea, scrub your hands with plenty of soap and water after cleaning the bathroom, helping the person use the toilet, or changing diapers, soiled clothes or soiled sheets.
If you or your child has persistent diarrhea (with or without a fever), or if the diarrhea is severe or contains blood, call your doctor or health center for advice.​
This is not an academic medical discussion bulletin board. This is a trumpet board. If you wIsh to discuss my post further on a medical basis, give me a call at 305 664-7296 and I will be happy to have a discussion with you. Frankly, long posts that there might be little general musical interest are too time consuming for me.
Thanks for understanding.

@grune said in Clean with 'alcohol'?:

To summarise the consensus as I see it: ethanol is effective against single cell, and safe; propanol2 is effective against spores and single cell, thus a better choice with caveat; a general cleaning removes 'gunk' with caveat; disinfecting with propanol2 should follow general cleaning.

Sorry to add to this since I just arrived to the discussion. This is not meant in any way as aggression, just clarification of your conclusions. Isopropyl Alcohol, also known as propran-2 ol, propranolol2, Rubbing Alcohol, etc, is not effective against spores. This is why hand washing in a health care setting, as opposed to, or in addition to hand sanitizer is important to prevent spore based infections. Your plan otherwise seems quite solid and well thought out, I’m sure based on the many contributions to the discussion and your health concerns.
The following is a quote from the CDC and reference link to the use of alcohol and other substances tor disinfection and sanitizing:

“Alcohols are not recommended for sterilizing medical and surgical materials principally because they lack sporicidal action and they cannot penetrate protein-rich materials. Fatal postoperative wound infections with Clostridium have occurred when alcohols were used to sterilize surgical instruments contaminated with bacterial spores.“

https://www.cdc.gov/infectioncontrol/guidelines/disinfection/disinfection-methods/chemical.html

@Rapier232 said in Turning Guns into Trumpets:

@SSmith1226
I appreciate all of that, but my point still stands. Having been a Cop for 30 years I’ve seen a lot of good ideas go wrong, because they haven’t been thought through properly. I hope his scheme works out, but bad people do bad things to good people every day.

I do not disagree with your point. I also respect your experience as well as the fact that you have put your life on the line for 30 years to do what is right, and protect your community. Because we are are human beings does not mean that we automatically behave in a civilized manner. People are people, and bad things can result from that.

@Rapier232 said in Turning Guns into Trumpets:

What happens when a kid turns up with a gun, just takes all the trumpets and keeps the gun?

Or worse....I understand your concern. I also can see that Shamarr Allen is deeply invested in trying to improve his community. After all, he has young children, and the stabbing and shooting children and adults in New Orleans on a daily basis has been commonplace for many decades. I lived in New Orleans from 1974-1979. During those years I was responsible, along with many others, for providing Surgical care to the victims who were funneled into New Orlean’s Major Trauma Center, Charity Hospital of New Orleans, whether they were New Orleans Police Officers, the equivalent of gangbangers, innocent victims of crime, or innocent bystanders who were collateral damage. During my five years, I, alone probably saw anywhere from 2-10 stab and gunshot wound victims per day who made it to the hospital alive. I worked seven days a week and was allowed seven vacation days per year. My exposure to this problem was enormous.
My understanding is that gun violence has not improved in New Orleans even up to the current time. There is very little value put on human life by perpetrators and criminals within the high crime districts of New Orleans. Just consider The fate of 9 year old Devonte Bryant who was purposely shot at close range in the back of his head. Most of the gun violence was, and still is, aimed at the members of the community. Tourists were considered fair game as well. If you live in one of these areas, as Shamarr Allen does, your options include, live with the situation the best you can, move elsewhere if you are able to, or do what you can to fix it from within. In his own way, Shamarr Allen, within his sphere of influence is trying to fix what he can from within. What he is doing is very admirable. By getting even a few illegal guns out of the hands of minors, redirecting their interests, and expanding their talents , he could very well be preventing the juveniles he is interacting with from living a life of crime, preventing serious injuries, and saving lives. I hope that his endeavors are successful and he does not get hurt trying to help others. Who would have ever thought that a trumpet could save lives!
By the way, to give you an idea of the severity of the circumstance that I am referring to, read the following account of the shooting death of 9 year Devante Bryant, that led to Shamarr Allen’s epiphany. Keep in mind that two other children were shot in the same non random incident and other children were shot at. Also in the story, the circumstances surrounding Devante Bryant’s family are very informative relative to my points above.

https://www.nola.com/news/crime_police/article_5f48b042-cce8-11ea-97c6-97ed082eda8c.html

@J-Jericho

I bet that you didn’t know that you could turn guns into trumpets. Here is how it is done:

New Orleans trumpeter Shamarr Allen wanted to find a way to get guns out of kids' hands, so he turned to what he knows best: music. He recently created a gun-for-trumpet exchange program — called Trumpet Is My Weapon — and has so far collected four guns that he turned over to police.

"I had some trumpets lying around, and I know for me, the trumpet saved me," he says.

Allen, who's from the city's Lower Ninth Ward, started the program after learning about Devante Bryant, 9, was fatally shot in front of his 7th Ward home earlier this month.

"I have a nine-year-old son, so for me it just hit me different," Allen says.

So he posted on social media: "To all the youth in New Orleans, Bring me a gun and I'll give you a trumpet no questions asked."

Allen says it is important to him that the kids who come to his exchange feel safe.

"I wanted to build a relationship and trust with the kids so that they wouldn't have to worry about getting in any trouble," he says....

If you are interested the full story and a recorded intervirw can be found at the following site.

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/24/895123707/to-help-keep-new-orleans-safe-musician-trades-kids-trumpets-for-guns

@grune
Thanks!

Here are two. The second will be a lot easier than the first.

Ten- Pantera