Difference between trumpet and cornet

Maybe those ebay offerings that show a cornet and call it a trumpet aren't put in by people who don't know what they are selling......but actually really smart people who are way more intelligent than imagined at first blush. However, the ones showing French horns or trombones and calling them trumpets probably really are idiots.

Dirk020

I was thinking, what about the difference between a rotary trumpet and flugelhorn?

Trumpetsplus

@Dirk020 I would certainly bow to any rotarians amongst us, but superficially:
Rotary flugel and piston flugel are very similar; short adjustable length lead pipe straight into valves, then gradual taper all the way to the bell.

Rotary trumpet has valves positioned the same as flugel, then an "extension lead pipe" connects to the main slide after which the tubing tapers to the bell.

So a similarity is placement of the valves and a difference is the flugel is tuned at the lead pipe and the trumpet at the main slide.

ROWUK

In my world, the difference between a trumpet and cornet are 99% inside the head of the player. Cornet players have a more "intimate" approach. Great cornets allow you to play the 16 repeats that Clarke writes into his technical studies...

administrator

I think the fact that a cornet bell is closer to the ear makes a big, big difference in the way the player approaches the instrument.

This post is deleted!

adc

Great discussion and thank you so much as usual Trumpetsplus. BTW the Capri Cornet I bought from you (I believe it was you). Was a superb horn. Ultimately though I drifted to older cornet horns..several conns pre-1912, a 1898 Boosey.Fuchs, a 1916 York. A 50's Committee, Conn 36A and King Master. A actually gave the Capri to a very very accomplished 10th grader. She is in love with the horn!!!

The pre 40's 50's horns all have the Crook and play very Dark (which I love). The Committee, Conn and King are a bit lighter but have a "better sound/intonation. All time favorite is the Conn 36A Concert Grand. I don't think that It will be possible for me to find a better one. I have played a Strad. The King Master is a close second. My Music teacher likes the Committee and I loaned him my extra. He prefers it over his Strad on a gig where he needs a cornet.

Curious as to why Cornets kept getting brighter over the century+. Can't be the Shepherds Crook bc the Cpri has that. The 38A, Committee and King do not have the Crook

djeffers78

@adc

I think the bright cornet sounds might be fading away from the norm again. At least in the brass band setting.
Most are now back to a larger bore smaller bell and Wick 4. Which gives a very warm sound.
Even this year’s competition music seems to be focused more on sound and style than moving the fingers at 100 mph
As for bright sounding cornets....
I believe it’s because people think there trumpets and pop in a 3c and play just like the trumpet
Cornet is more style than anything
And it all depends on what kind of music being played
No cornet is bright with a Wick 4 plugged in

grune

I am scratching memory cobwebs. Very long ago, I experimented with a cornet and trumpet, both were vintage Selmer. Cannot recall which specfic mp's I used. But I recall 2 aspects. [1] By using a specific m/p for each, I could obtain a tone indistinguishable between cornet and trumpet. [2] In obtaining the equal sound, I recall the cornet gave more resistance. For the cornet, the m/p was a bowl shape, rather shallow. For the trumpet, the m/p was a V shape, rather deep.
... I am interested to hear other views.

Kehaulani

I'm not sure how this jibes with some of your experiences, but I added cornets to my band's trumpet section and when we played music that specifically called for cornets, the cornets had a softer, rounder sound than the trumpets, who had a more direct sound.

Dr GO

My ear can not detect the difference. A lot depends on the player's styling.

veery

@administrator This is a huge factor.

Trumpetb

I have done a great deal of experimentation and I do not accept that the position of the valves has any relationship to the tone.

If that were the case then my peashooter with valves closer to the bell should be darker sounding than my balanced model with valves further away from the bell.

Nothing could be further from the truth the peashooter with small and thin bell flare sounds much brighter than the balanced model.

I do not accept that the number of bends in the wrap has any effect on the tone.

If that were the case then when I play open the tone would be much brighter than when playing with all valves down.

I am after all considerably increasing the amount of bend in the tubing when using the valves. 360 degrees played open and fully 900 degrees of bend with all three valves depressed, and no change whatsoever to the tone.

What does affect the tone is all of the following:-
the shape of the bell flare,
the size of the bell,
the thickness of the tube wall,
the material the instrument is made of,
the position of the braces,
the weight of the valve block,
the presence or not of a rim wire,
the mouthpipe shape and design,
the mouthpiece weight,
the mouthpiece size,
the mouthpiece cup shape,
the mouthpiece cup depth,
the size of the oral cavity,
the embouchure,
the tonal concept in the head of the player,

These are the real differences between trumpet and cornet

I would bet my life and all I own on this.

Kehaulani

Trumpetb

I got a lot more from your earlier comments kehaulani, but thanks for commenting

Trumpetsplus

@trumpetb Welcome to Trumpets Boards and thank you for your input. I am sure we are very interested to see some of your experiments.

Trumpetb

Thanks for the warm welcome trumpetplus

I had no intention of causing trouble I just saw something that clashes with my experience

As for experiments there can be experimentation without formal experiments.

The experimentation I speak of is many side by side comparisons of instruments of varied and various types and of varied construction with valve blocks in a variety of positions.

Never have I found that the instrument varies in tone richness as various valve combinations are used, as it should do if the amount of bend in the tube determines the richness of tone. I think that theory is clearly incorrect.

I have seen tones varying in instruments that have valve blocks in different locations in the tubing, sometimes in support of the theory but at other times in complete opposition to the theory and that is not how a good theory should behave. It should be consistent reliable and predictable.

If there is a theory then that theory must be supported consistently by experience and be repeatable and perform the same way every time, any failure of the theory either makes the theory incorrect or calls for further investigation at the least.

If the facts dont support the theory then either the theory is not correct or there must be another explanation.

I stand by my words, I presume your contention is my opposition to the statement that a valve block position closer to the bell yields darker tones than a valve block positioned further away from the bell, and my opposition to increased bends in the tube yielding darker tones.

I have given my reason for rejecting the theory for both, I have seen instruments with valve block closer to the bell with brighter tones than instruments with valve block further away.

In my experience from observations with instruments of all types and a lot of different designs, not as much experience as some have and certainly not as much as a good tech might have but enough experience that I should be able to see clearly whether or not the theory holds true and gives predictable results, and in my view it doesnt.

I have seen however countless examples of correlations between
heavy instrument and dark tones
mouthpiece changes and predictable tone changes
bell shape and predictable tone changes
rim shape and predictable tone changes
oral cavity changes and predictable tone changes
embouchure changes and predictable tone changes

the theories all hold up well in these other areas we can make predictable changes and these changes result in the expected brighter or darker tones.

What I will say is this, under certain circumstances of design and size of bell flare in a cornet for example the valve block must by design be closer to the bell, but if the bell flare is such that the horn plays darkly, the darkness may be interpreted as being a characteristic of the valve block position, whereas it is in truth a characteristic of the bell flare.

Could this go some way to explain why valve block position appears to affect darkness in cornets compared to darkness in trumpets.

We can compare like for like in trumpets as I have done but cornet to trumpet is not a like for like comparison. Is there a way of comparing 2 cornets with different valve block positions that might show the effect of moving the valve block.

And critically how much does that contribute to the tone.

Apologies for the length of this post

J. Jericho

All right....

Other than the mouthpiece and receiver being shorter on a cornet than on a trumpet and the shank taper being smaller, too (although the cup, throat, backbore, and leadpipe taper are still essentially the same) a trumpet is longer than a cornet, which also has more crooks (unless it's a Conn Connstellation or an Olds Mendez, which look exactly like their trumpet counterparts), except for a pocket trumpet, which is much shorter than a cornet and has even more crooks (unless it's a pocket cornet, in which case there is no difference in appearance between the two [like the visual similarity between the Conn Connstellation and Olds Mendez mentioned above]), and as for timbre and projection, a trumpet and a cornet can both sound the same or different, depending upon the player, the mouthpiece, and the design and construction of the instrument.

Whew! There - the difference between trumpet and cornet in a (coconut) nutshell. Got it?

SSmith1226

@j-jericho
Trumpet- Cylindrical Bore
Cornet- Conical Bore

Dale Proctor

@ssmith1226 said in Difference between trumpet and cornet:

@j-jericho
Trumpet- Cylindrical Bore
Cornet- Conical Bore

The ratio of conical to cylindrical tubing is about the same in a typical cornet and typical trumpet. What makes the difference is the rate of flare in the conical parts. A good cornet should have a more pronounced flare in the conical areas.