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    Posts made by OldSchoolEuph

    • RE: Company Timelines (Besson, Diston-Keefer, Frank Holton, Vincent Bach)

      @Kehaulani said in Company Timelines (Besson, Diston-Keefer, Frank Holton, Vincent Bach):

      That was fascinating, thanks.
      Just a quickie - I thought BAC was still in transition and not selling their Benges yet.

      It appears you are correct. Retail availability now looks like this fall - Covid seems to have interrupted tooling efforts for a while. I am told they still have to get the production valve making tooling set up, and then should be ready.

      The other new BAC trumpets are out now if you happen to be interested in one of those (your local dealer is Strait Music - in front of Target at the base of the freeway triangle off S. Lamar - looks like they only stock Yamaha, B&S and Bach in inventory. Maybe you can persuade them to show Benge as well?)

      posted in Historical Database
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
    • RE: Company Timelines (Besson, Diston-Keefer, Frank Holton, Vincent Bach)

      @Kehaulani said in Company Timelines (Besson, Diston-Keefer, Frank Holton, Vincent Bach):

      Fascinating. Could you tell me why the pre-WWII French Bessons were legendary, how Benge and Schilke came into this mix, and what modern trumpet would be the closest to the Besson? Thanks.

      This question is purely an opinion. Some may feel that the pre-war F.Bessons are nothing special, others connect with a mystique that dates back a century.

      Around 1880, the Besson trumpet we think of as a Brevete, was the first valved trumpet that was practical. Prior to that time, and for most makers well after, “trumpets” came in a variety of keys, could be pitched with crooks like the inventionshorns they were, and had bores often made up of cornet parts. The Besson design captured the sound and feel of a natural trumpet – probably by being a compact (and half-wave) version thereof with the addition of a valve block. Until 1911, if you came into a serious orchestra, chances were that the conductor would not tolerate the sound of cornets and these half-breed trumpets. They would only tolerate the pure trumpet tone of natural trumpets, baroque slide trumpets (played at an angle with a 1.5 step slide on a plunger that pushed back past the face, not soprano sackbuts), vented natural trumpets like Haydn wrote for, or Besson chromatic trumpets.

      Which would you choose to play?

      Then in 1911 the Holton company introduced their New Holton Trumpet. By today’s standards the tone was thin, bright, and a bit harsh. But it was a trumpet tone. With the right mouthpiece, it could be a clear, crystal penetrating and semi-strident sound in keeping with that of a natural trumpet. By 1920, Holton moved on to the Revelation concept which proved more suited to swing clubs than concert halls, but Conn picked up with the 2B and the amazing 22B. This and the rise of Courtois, Couesnon, and ultimately Selmer in 1932 in France really bit into the market for Fontaine-Besson. Besson production tapered off from WWI to WWII as sales tapered even further (this is why we have the overlap of old and new designs in the serial numbers in the 90-99,000 range as parts and whole horns were stashed for later sale).

      For American orchestral trumpeters, the scarcity that resulted from contraction at Besson in the 1930s – and which brought about the sale of the firm to SML – left serious players with aging instruments and no new ones in the market that had the pretentiousness of a “French Besson”.

      That will bring us to question #2

      Elden Benge was originally a cornetist, as his father had been a minor celebrity cornetist. He famously wrote a letter to HL Clarke asking about switching to trumpet to adapt to societal change which in his response to, the noted virtuoso equated “Jaz” with the closest thing to Hell and the Devil. Benge studied with Edward Llewellyn, principle trumpet in the Chicago Symphony, and ultimately succeeded him when Llewellyn’s teeth failed. Llewellyn was still acting as an orchestra manager and road man for Holton when, a few miles from an 8 year old Byron Autrey’s home in Texas in the early 30s, he slept in the passenger seat as his wife drove toward an oncoming truck with pipes on a rack overhead. The truck drifted into their lane and Mrs. Llewelyn attempted to pass on the wrong side. But as the truck drifted off the road, the driver awoke, overcorrected, and the two cars met in an offset frontal impact which sent pipes flying forward decapitating Llewellyn (story courtesy of Byron a few weeks before he passed).

      At the same time as he became one of the world’s most visible trumpeters, Benge found himself with a Besson that was wearing out. Benge had a friend, nieghbor and fellow CSO trumpeter named Renold Schilke. Schilke had apprenticed at Holton in the mid 1920s and in 1927 studied advanced instrumental acoustics for a year in Belgium. Upon his return, he collaborated with his teacher on the Llewellyn model Holton, concepts from which he would apply in 1937 to the design of the Committee for Martin. Benge asked Schilke for help, and Schilke taught him the fundamentals of brass making in a garage workshop. Benge then dismantled his favorite Besson and used it as a template for making parts to repair others.

      Before too long, Benge, probably with input from Schilke, Llewellyn, Holton designers and others, was making “improvements” to the basic Besson bell tapers and working/annealing cookbook (the “Resno-tempered” concept). It motivated his transition from modifying/resurrecting old semi-sacred at the time Bessons, to making better Bessons.

      After serving in the Navy in WWII, Byron Autrey, who evidenced a natural feel for the scientific basis of tone production that Schilke preached as gospel, came to work with Benge as his first road man and technical collaborator. Perhaps Byron’s talent for bell tapers was learned from Benge and Schilke, but it was Byron who was the master of leadpipe design in perfected pairing with the bell taper (a personal passion of Schilke’s). Byron took Schilke’s ideas and was able, largely by innate feel, with some numbers thrown in for psychological comfort, to adapt them to tweaking Besson leadpipe tapers to achieve the ever moving target Benge had of a “Better Besson”.

      When Benge died in 1960, it appeared that ongoing evolution would end, but Byron lived on, and took as his inheritance that passion for a better Besson (among other makes such as Bach, Reynolds, Martin, Edwards, Kanstul, …).

      That brings us to question #3.

      Irving Bush had been another collaborator with Elden Benge. When Benge died, he stepped in and took over QC for the company and was instrumental in its survival. He was the one who preserved the pieces found in Benge’s workshop from that first Besson so that Lou Duda, master maker and father of John Duda who carries on the Calicchio tradition toady, could reassemble it. Bush, of course, interacted with Schilke and Autrey as time went on, but the company itself was doomed by the market forces that consolidated almost all the great makers out of existence. As it spiraled out, Zig Kanstul, an apprentice of Foster Reynolds (an apprentice of assorted long lines of masters), Harper Reynolds, and Benge himself, briefly tried to salvage that heritage directly before bailing out and ultimately partnering with Elden’s son and heir Donald Benge (the same one famous for board games) to produce Benge/Besson heritage horns in 1980.

      That venture inspired Kanstul to buy the former Benge plant with all the tooling still sitting there, and not only stencil those horns for “Burbank”, but sell them under the Kanstul name and ultimately make perfectly faithful Besson Brevete and MEHA replicas under contract to the owners of the Besson (ironically English Besson not French) name. Byron Autrey joined the effort, as was his style quietly but dominatingly, behind the scenes. Zig Kanstul relied on both the extensive research he and R. Dale Olsen had done together at Olds with vintage Besson bells and leadpipes as part of the “Olds Custom” project, and on Byron’s improved interpretations in the spirit of their mutual friend Benge. Byron adjusted the bell for one model, and the leadpipes for all, making them embody, yet improve on as Schilke always sought, the performance of the Besson originals they sounded exactly like.

      When the end came at Kanstul in 2019, the Benge/Besson heritage was still strong. Just before Mark Kanstul threw in the towel, the firm had moved forward plans to once again reintroduce these models to a market still hungry for them. In the ensuing chaos, priceless assets like the Benge annealing ovens went for scrap prices on EBay. Eventually, the upstart BAC Musical Instruments, with its charismatic front man and founder backed by the business acumen and finances of the leadership of “Rent my Instrument” with which the firm had previously merged, and supported by the advice of John Duda, stepped in and bought what was left after those EBay sales and some transfers to a long time Kanstul employee.

      To augment and complete the hodge-podge of tooling, documents, models and parts, BAC was put in contact with the estate of Byron Autrey. From that channel, they secured priceless tools, experiments, personally optimized Benge horns and other resources. The final crowning element came when they successfully secured rights to the Benge trademark.

      The BAC Benge is a Benge, which is a Besson. It is the culmination of 140 years of developing the French Besson concept of trumpet sound – the original chromatic orchestral trumpet sound. The “Chicago” leadpipe option is a faithful recreation of an optimized Besson pipe in the Benge tradition. The “Burbank” pipe, is the final ultimate achievement of all of these masters working over nearly a century and a half up until shortly before Byron’s sudden death just last year. It is faithful to the French Besson concept, but improves upon the consistency, intonation, and flexibility far beyond what the originals offered a player. Of course, the more any technology can do for you, the more it can do to you, so the choice between Chicago and Burbank is one between more and less stable – or more and less constraining – depending on your desires/abilities as a player.

      Obviously, I feel, based on the history and upon the testimony of those who have played them, that the answer to your third and I suspect primary question is the Benge Trumpet from BAC.

      posted in Historical Database
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
    • RE: Attracting members who are interested in things musical/trumpet

      OK, I just added a basic content thread - company timelines. Lets see who adds to it. I only covered 4 makers - there's a lot more out there.

      posted in Suggestion Box
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
    • Company Timelines (Besson, Diston-Keefer, Frank Holton, Vincent Bach)

      OK, here's one of those content threads we have been talking about. Here are 4 company timelines. Expand, correct, add more companies. Let's add some core content.

      Besson
      1838: AG Besson builds his first Perinet valve cornet in France

      1858: AG Besson loses a lawsuit and relocates to England. His wife restarts the firm, continuing the same serial numbers

      1867: (or before) The French firm introduces a new concept of a pitch change slide at the last bend of the lead pipe

      1880: (or possibly very shortly before) The French firm introduces the first modern wrap valve trumpet, pretty much what people call a Brevete model (though that is not a model name)

      1890: The French firm changes names to Fontaine-Besson as a result of a marriage in the family

      1894: The English firm is sold out of the Besson family

      1914: Austrian deserter Vincent Bach lands a job as assistant principle trumpet in Boston using a Besson cornet. He is promptly provided Gustav Heim’s spare 1914 LP New Holton Trumpet demonstrator.

      1930: Elden Benge begins building modified Bessons and then his own horns in the same style, he continues evolving this school of design with the help of Schilke, Autrey and Busch through the end of his life.

      1931: Francois Millereau, a former Besson employee, sells his trumpet making business to Henri Selmer.

      1932: Fontaine-Besson is acquired by Strasser Margaux & Lemaire

      1948: Besson (the English firm) is acquired by Boosey & Hawkes

      1957: An insolvent SML sells Fontaine-Besson to Couesnon

      1969: An arson fire reduces the Couesnon plant to a pile of broken block and twisted steel. All Besson records and tooling there are lost. (This is the end of direct production of F.Besson horns)

      1980: Donald Benge teams with Zig Kanstul and Byron Autrey to develop Benge style (French Besson style) trumpets for stencil under the Burbank name and also after 1981, the Kanstul name.

      1981: Buffet is acquired by Boosey & Hawkes

      1986: Boosey & Hawkes is acquired by Carl Fischer

      2001: Carl Fischer’s extensive conglomerate of instrument makers shut down names including B&H. Besson continues.

      2003: The Music Group, a venture capital entity, restructures the Carl Fischer companies. Besson designs and tooling were deliberately destroyed and the name moved to a new line of instruments built in India and other locations.

      2006: The Music Group becomes insolvent. The Meinl family and Triumph Adler, which already owned B^S and other post-collective East block firms, acquires most of the brands including Buffet and Besson. The resultant Buffet-Crampon company controlled those plus Courtois and York. Besson production returned to Europe at Markneukirchen shortly thereafter.

      2019: The tooling and records of the Kanstul company convey the Benge/F.Besson Legacy to BAC Musical Instruments. Autrey’s personal Benge and Kanstul horns, design notes, tools, etc. also transfer from his estate to BAC.

      2020: BAC acquires the Benge trademark and begins building the culmination of the work of Besson, Benge, Schilke, Autrey and Kanstul with regard to classic Besson design. Modern Besson designs by Buffet continue, but with no design linkage to any prior Besson instruments

      Distin-Keefer
      1849: Henry Distin started making instruments in England while still part of his family ensemble that toured performing on Saxhorns.
      1868: Distin workshop sold to music publisher Boosey & Co. which continued the serial numbers at the same address.
      1876: After a couple years of blowing all his money on failed concert promotions and making a living playing and tending bar, Distin moved to the US to superintend at the "monster" Martin Pollman & Co. works in NYC. (This allowed partner JH Martin 2 years to go work at CG Conn and learn about modern instruments)
      1878: Distin started making the same designs he had made in England in partnership with FW Busch in New York.
      1880: Distin partnered with former Martin & Co. joint venture partner Moses Slater in New York.
      1882: Distin moved to Pennsylvania and started Distin & Pincus, a publisher. Slater continued building the same horns under his own name without Distin.
      1884: Henry Distin Manufacturing established in Philadelphia to make horns for JW Pepper.
      1889: Distin Manufacturing moved to Williamsport
      1890: Distin Manufacturing sold to shop superintendent, Brua C. Keefer.
      1909: Name changed to Brua C. Keefer Company.
      1960: A grass fire alongside the plant spread to the building. The company never reopened.

      Frank Holton & Co.
      1885: Sousa Band trombonist Frank Holton partnered with JW York, a former apprentice to Louis Hartman and Henry Esbach in the Keat/Graves/Wright tradition at Boston.
      1887: York and Holton ceases operations, though was not closed out for many years.
      1896: Holton starts a mail-order business selling his “Electric Oil” slide oil for trombones. It does not make money in its first 3 years
      1898: Holton opens a small Chicago walk-up store selling instrumental supplies and used band instruments. A few cornets were assembled at the repair bench from a mix of purchased and fabricated parts.
      1904: Holton relocated to an entire floor of 107 W. Madison in Chicago for more manufacturing space.
      1906: The first half of the Holton factory on Gladys street was constructed. Virtuoso Earnst Couturier joins the firm as a promoter, road man, and possibly designer.
      1911: The second half and adjacent shipping/receiving building opened. The New Holton Trumpet debuts as the first serious American orchestral trumpet.
      1913: Couturier leaves Holton for a brief partnership with JW York to build the Wizard cornet.
      1914: Gustav Heim handed his new assistant at Boston a 1914 New Holton Trumpet demonstrator, as the Austrian deserter had no trumpet of his own. This encouraged Vincent Bach to become a Holton artist.
      1916: Couturier buys the William Seidel Band Instrument Company, renames it for himself, and starts building a line of pure conical bore instruments – even trombones. He moves it To LaPorte in 1918
      1918: Over a weekend in October, all tooling was relocated to a new facility in Elkhorn Wisconsin, provided free of charge when the firm met a local payroll target – actually ahead of the deadline
      1918-19: Holton built a neighborhood of houses to recruit key employees. His home anchored the end of the street, the other end of which ended at the door of the municipal building downtown.
      1921: The Holton Revelation Trumpet, in production since December of 1919, was announced formally.
      1923: Couturier loses his eyesight, and shortly thereafter his company to Lyon & Healy.
      1924: 14 year old “child prodigy” Renold Schilke begins performing with the Holton-Elkhorn band, and apprenticing in brassmaking and gunsmithing at the factory.
      1927: Schilke, his teacher Edward Llewellyn, and the Holton design team develop the Llewellyn model variant of the Holton Revelation. Elements of this design would influence the Martin Committee.
      1928: Holton buys the defunct former Couturier shop for Lyon & Healy and establishes the Collegiate brand.
      1929: The same team develops the first light-weight, very large bore, minimally braced, reversed construction trumpet with Kansas trumpeter and professor, Don Berry.
      1932: After an unsuccessful rebranding as “Ideal”, Holton closes the LaPorte facility and moves production of Collegiate instruments to the Elkhorn plant.
      1938: Frank Holton sells the company to long time employee Frank Kull.
      1944: Frank Kull dies and is succeeded by his son Grover.
      1957: Holton begins buying parts and complete built-to-spec horns from Courtois. French valves become commonplace on Holton horns – though not all models.
      1965: Leblanc completes a 3-year acquisition of Holton – and promptly goes through 2 new model numbering schemes.
      1971: Holton, as part of a wide range of artist-linked models, begins a line of 10 trumpets designed at an intermediate level for young fans of Maynard Fergusson. They become best-sellers.
      1981: The Martin design team, by then another arm of Leblanc and charged with all R&D, copies an Elkhart Bach 37, selected at a local store, creating the specifications for the Holton T-101s
      2004: Steinway Musical Instruments’ Conn-Selmer division acquires Leblanc
      2007: Conn-Selmer halts production at Elkhorn, moving Holton French horns to Eastlake Ohio and merging the Holton brand with King and others on Eastlake low brass.

      Vincent Bach Corporation
      1914: While touring in Britain, cornet artist and Austrian Navy veteran Vincent Schrottenbach learns of the onset of World War One. A soldier behind enemy lines, he quickly books passage on a ship to the US under the name Vincent Bach to elude capture. There he performs with the Boston Symphony for a season, tours the West Coast in 1915, and settles in playing with the Met. He is drafted and becomes a bugle instructor for the US Army in 1918.
      1918: Bach sets up a small mouthpiece making shop in the back of the New York Selmer store – probably the smartest move George Bundy made on behalf of his then employer.
      1922: Bach incorporates.
      1924: Bach begins experimenting in trumpet making, drawing on both the commonplace Besson of the time, and his Holtons.
      1925: Bach makes his 45th horn for his new wife’s father, bandmaster Adam Staab (it was his second marriage)
      1928: Bach moves out of a small storefront shop and into an actual factory building in the Bronx around serial number 1000.
      1953: With an additional 10,000 serial numbers consumed, Bach relocates to a factory in Mt. Vernon New York.
      1962: Bach sells the company to his one-time patron, the Selmer company, despite higher offers, and designs both a revised Stradivarius trumpet (the 180) and a new Bundy trumpet for them.
      1963: In November, construction of 180s begins at Mt. Vernon while the former Buescher plant on Main Street in Elkhart is readied to relocate Bach to, as the rent charged by the Bach family on Mt. Vernon was considerable.
      1965: Selmer moves Bach operations to Main Street in Elkhart.
      1974: Selmer moves Bach operations, over time, to the facility on Industrial Drive in Elkhart. Two-piece casings and steel rim wires in 180s phase out over the next few years ending the “Early Elkhart” period.
      2004: Steinway Musical Properties acquires Selmer, and with it Bach.
      2010: The Bach “Artisan” 190 series trumpets are introduced, featuring a French bead and Early-Elkhart elements such as two piece casings. The non-Artisan “regular” 190s additionally feature steel rim wires.

      posted in Historical Database
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
    • RE: Attracting members who are interested in things musical/trumpet

      @Kehaulani said in Attracting members who are interested in things musical/trumpet:

      Unless the composer openly states his/her intent, I am not a mind reader. I don't presume to put thoughts in their heads. As a tool for performance though, if the information is there, any of a composers' thoughts should be helpful.

      What about when the intent is not stated, but the composer's unique mindset is well documented?

      I would ask as case in point, and as like me you are old enough to have potentially played it both ways: what is the appropriate tonal/color approach to the glorious brass fanfares of Tchaikovsky's 4th? Is it the bright and strident 1970s psuedo-starwars/LSO sound, or is it the dark, overwhelmingly massive, Wagnerian sound preferred by some?

      (with option of viola-leveling trombones in either case)

      I know which I pick, based on the composer's state of mind, but I also know which has been more prevalent historically. What do you say?

      posted in Suggestion Box
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
    • RE: Attracting members who are interested in things musical/trumpet

      I seem to recall posting a long list of thread starters in response to Kehaulani's last post like this. Several commented on the depth of the list, hit like, etc. - no one actually started a single thread though. . . .

      Content attracts interest, which attracts members, who add content. This site needs some kindling to get the fire started though.

      posted in Suggestion Box
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
    • RE: Woodworking?

      "Get started" with a CNC router ?? Kind of like handing a beginner a Monette Raja - except unlike the trumpet, a CNC router will, if you download the files and follow the set-up instructions, do everything for you (at which point you are not doing any woodworking, the machine is).

      I would suggest practicing the basic skills, learning the feel of the tools interacting with different species of woods. Hand tools first, then power, then programmable - like learning basic technique, developing range, applying musicality, etc. That would be my approach to "get started".

      posted in Lounge
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
    • RE: First Horns

      @Mike-Ansberry said in First Horns:

      The first horn I learned to play on was a Conn 14A. It was a rental that my parents got for me when I started band the summer before 4th grade. (1964) It was a nice horn. I had it for 2 months and then my parents bought me a used trumpet. I had my choice of a Roth that looked old and worn and a shiny used American Standard. I chose the shiny one. Yes they do make toilets and apparently in the same factory by the same artisans. It had no center of pitch whatsoever. Consequently it was years later that I learned what center of pitch meant.

      Entertaining exaggeration, but lets be clear: American Standard band instruments were a brand of the Cleveland Band Instrument Co. (founded just after WW1) which HN White continued after buying Cleveland. The line at first was an intermediate brand as it had been under Cleveland (which was originally a pro brand name), then became a student line. A few years before the White family sold their company to Nate Dolan to become King Musical Instruments, American Standard was rebranded as "Tempo". Meanwhile, dating back to the early twentieth century if not before, the American Standard Co made plumbing fixtures. That company moved its operations to Mexico at the end of that century, spurring its nick-name in the trades "Mexican Standard" - but it is still in business to this day. Completely separate entities.

      posted in Vintage Items
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
    • RE: First Horns

      @Shepherds_Crook said in First Horns:

      This thread makes me mad. My first trumpet was a new Conn Director rented by my folks when I was in 5th grade. I had no clue how horrible I was until 9th grade when my teacher told my folks that I was progressing well and needed to get a new trumpet. My dad agreed, and my first trumpet safari began. I played a Clark Terry Olds, Bach Strad 37 and 43, Benge 3x, 6x, and 7x, Conn Constellation, a Schilke (can’t remember the model), and the Getzen SEV that became the winner. Everything I played was light years better than that stuffy, nasty sounding Director. I couldn’t sell that Horn fast enough. I don’t want to ever see one again. I now consider those first 4 years of playing the ‘lost years’ because that horn so crippled my development.

      Just imagine if you had been forced to start on an Ceccilio, a Mendini, a $69 Oswal - or a plastic toy masquerading as a trumpet. Suddenly that Director is not so bad. Kids today have not just two strikes against them, but 8 other innings.

      posted in Vintage Items
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
    • RE: C. G. Conn Club

      OK, here are a few Conns from my collection:

      Conn Solo Wonder (1880s)
      Conn 1888 Wonder Case.JPG

      A Couple Conn Perfected Wonders (originated 1906)
      Conn 1906 Perfected Wonders.JPG

      1908 Conn Conqueror
      Conn 1908 Connquerer.JPG

      1909 Conn Wonderphone
      Conn 1909 Wonderphone Long.JPG

      1910 Conn symphony Trumpet
      Conn 1910-11 Symphony.jpg

      1918 Conn Military Trumpet
      Conn 1918 USQMC.jpg

      1920s Conn American Legion Bugle
      Conn 1920s 11L Bb Am Legion Bugle.jpg

      1922 Conn 5B
      Conn 1922 5B in case.JPG

      1924 Conn 22B New York Symphony
      Conn 1924 22B NYS.JPG

      1926 Con 26B
      Conn 1926 26B.jpg

      1928 Conn Cavalier
      Conn 1928 Cavalier.JPG

      1928 Conn 24B Opera
      Conn 1928 Opera 24B.JPG

      1932 Conn 10B New Era
      Conn 1932 New Era 10B.JPG

      1937 Conn 2B New World Symphony
      Conn 1937 2B.JPG

      1937 Conn 48B Vocabell
      Conn 1937 48B Vocabell trumpet.jpg

      1952 Conn 22B
      Conn 1952 22B.JPG

      1954 Conn 28B Connstellation
      Conn 1954 Connstellation 28B.jpg

      1957 Conn 38B Connstellation
      Conn 1957 Connstellation 38B in case.jpg

      1972 Conn severinsen
      Conn 1972 Severinsen 1980 1000B.jpg

      Though I am really more of a King and Holton collector

      posted in Vintage Items
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
    • RE: First Horns

      My first horn was a 1965 Besson compensating British baritone. It still plays amazing, though it has a lot of wear. Mid-century Besson low brass were the classic Boosey & Hawkes designs. Amazing horns.

      posted in Vintage Items
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
    • RE: Did something change?

      The Administrator has, I believe, done a good job in finding a middle ground. The point of a forum is free sharing of ideas - which can have obvious challenges.

      I am vehemently opposed to deletion of content unless that content includes actionable defamation. That being said, I think locking threads when they get out of hand, stating at the end of them precisely why they are being locked as the Admin has done, and, as necessary, taking steps where individuals are concerned may be a far more difficult approach, but it is a far better one in terms of avoiding biasing a site and having the site become an advocate for a point of view instead of a free exchange.

      posted in Lounge
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
    • RE: What is this Conn? Should I purchase?

      The 22B Early is an exception among vintage horns. Almost none of the pre-50s horns are really usable in a serious modern context - these are the exception. And, they are abundant, thus affordable, and will reward a player who invests more than can be recouped in bringing them back to solid playing condition. That being said, once a leadpipe is mangled, its time to move on.

      In 1911, Holton shook up the North American market by getting serious about an orchestral trumpet. Until then, chromatic trumpets had been a mix of half-serious attempts and in the last couple of years, instruments targeting dance hall applications. The only serious trumpets in the US came from France - specifically Besson. Almost a decade later, Holton was moving on to the next leading edge with the minimally braced, lighter, Revelations that would miss the serious market, but explode into the dance hall and emergent Jazz market with a new darker, smokier sound. Conn at that same time was restructuring under the new ownership of Carl Greenleaf (recovering from the fire that wiped them out and the parting of ways with William Gronert that actually did more damage to the bottom line than the fire as Conn was a terrible manager - and ultimately lost most of his money, his company and his marriage.) Greenleaf set out to introduce a new line of top end trumpets, with the 2B New World Symphony as the new flagship. By some quirk of fate, the 22B New York Symphony small bore trumpet out played the 2B and everything else on the market - and then outsold. Until Benge began resurrecting Bessons and a boutique maker named Bach caught hold in the 30s, Conn was the unrivaled leader in trumpets - due in no small part to the 22B.

      posted in Vintage Items
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
    • RE: Please Help Me Understand Something (Pt 2)

      Wow, just think what we might discover, or at least share, if that much typing were expended on topics related to the instrument itself, advances in design, fabrication or materials, new repertoire, innovative approaches to unique situations with students . . . . .

      posted in Miscellaneous
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
    • RE: Perfect Pitch

      @Kehaulani said in Perfect Pitch:

      I knew of a guy who had perfect pitch who could only play C instruments because he couldn't reconcile playing a written note that sounded different from the true pitch (transposing instruments). Hearing pitches that weren't true drove him so crazy, he got out of music altogether.

      Even for those of us who have what might be called continuous relative pitch (appears like perfect pitch, but can drift off maybe a half step when listening to something), this is so true. It is why I learned to play trumpet (a standard Bb) reading C parts. Bb is a transposition for me.

      As I am most comfortable looking at bass clef anyway, when I play something on a D or an Eb, I write two lines out in bass clef - one the actual notes to be played and a second that is what my ears will be hearing. Otherwise, I can't use a D or Eb at all - just too disorienting.

      posted in Miscellaneous
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
    • RE: Vintage Horn Eye Candy

      @aTrumpetdude said in Vintage Horn Eye Candy:

      IMG_20200309_172926509.jpg
      IMG_20200309_172950918.jpg
      1950 NY Bach Strad 38 closet queen, not even one ding on it, original valves pop like a new Schilke

      Is that a French bead? or is it just the camera lens making that rim look semi-flat?

      posted in Vintage Items
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
    • RE: Horn damaged by a tech

      There are a lot of factors to consider in this really frustrating situation.

      The first is that it indeed is too costly to file suit relative to the loss involved. This gives the business owner power over you.

      However, to the extent that you are able to document your statements and not cross the defamation line, you are able to spread the word about the business and the tech, which in the internet age can have significant impact on future sales - giving you power over them.

      Lastly, there is the issue that every time you you buff down a horn, you alter it - although a 65 strad bell bow is pretty beefy, so probably not that much of an issue and brand new epoxy will blend seamlessly.

      Seems like negotiation with the business owner is the place to start - just have a range of options you consider acceptable predetermined. Should that fail, you can then choose between a scenario where you lose, or one where everybody loses. Personally, I find that follow through makes it clear to the next guy that I am not bluffing..

      In any case, I would assume you will not be patronizing that business in the future.

      posted in Repairs & Modifications
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
    • RE: New to my collection

      @stumac said in New to my collection:

      The bead of the Selmer is not an added piece, just the edge of the bell rolled back and formed into shape. Selmer were not the only ones to have this bead, my Buffet-Crampon has a similar one.

      Regards, Stuart

      I have not looked at one in person. I would like to see if there are clues as to how it was done.

      That would be quite a task to accomplish since the metal folded back would have been stretched out wider on the mandrel and would have to be compressed back to a smaller ring in the process - which is why inserting a ring of flat stock and pinning it with the rolled edge bead is the more typical approach for both free-standing garlands and applied garland-like trim.

      posted in Bb & C Trumpets
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
    • RE: New to my collection

      "French Bead" is a flattened rolled end to the bell flare. It is sometimes accomplished by folding the metal in on itself (quite hard to do), but more often with a flat ring in place of the usual wire. Bach uses an interesting wire for the Artisan French Bead rim that is a half-round wire in the cross-section. (Not sure where they get that)

      "Tone Ring" is a term made popular by companies like FE Olds for adding what for centuries has been called a garland. This is a separate piece of metal generally that is pinched into the rim bead - often nickle for color contrast. There are complex acoustical formulas for installing these such that they float above the bell curve (not sure how valid they are personally) - though this one appears to simply be laminated onto, and of matching brass.

      Garlands were commonplace on continental brass instruments for several hundred years (long before valves) and appear on most historic French, German, Austrian, etc. natural and baroque trumpets - extending into the early Austrian, Bohemian and Saxon cornets.

      posted in Bb & C Trumpets
      OldSchoolEuph
      OldSchoolEuph
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