Posts made by OldSchoolEuph

@chelpres said in Mid 20's Holton mouthpieces:

@tptguy Received wisdom is that the Holton Heim 2 M.P would be suitable. I bought one for just that purpose, for use in my 1927 New Revelation. My friend has a similar period Llewellen and the Heim came as standard.
FWIT'sW, I have found the best fit is with a period VEGA M.P. However first find your VEGA!
I would imagine a skilled tech would be able to determine M.P receiver dimensions and machine down a contemporary M.P to match. I had this done, but used the VEGA as a template.
I would imagine some of the more enlightened Holton specialists in vintage land will be able to expand on all this.

You cannot mill down a modern shank to the old Holton taper. It was faster, so you would need to add metal as you move up, and if you try to cut in at that slope, you'll just cut off a lot of the shank.

whatever you did, login just worked

OK, so somehow I am still logged in on this machine, using Chrome only - IE no. I just attempted a password reset through IE on another machine - got as far as entering, confirming and pressing the Reset Password bar - nothing. Copied the URL to Chrome, entered all 3 fields, clicked the bar, it said changing password and went to a login screen - Invalid login credentials.

This problem has been going on forever. Can it be fixed?

@stumac said in Chemical Cleaning:

acids he could not tell me the concentration, just added to water till he thought it was enough. Regards, Stuart.

Basic rule: the more anything can do for you, the more it can do to you. Chem and ultrasonic cleanings should be used sparingly, and only when there is no choice. The skill and experience of the person doing the cleaning makes all the difference between minimal impact and an improvement over where you were, and doing irreversible damage.

@flugelgirl said in Differences between grades of instruments:

I really don’t think vintage horns had a higher quality level for intermediate vs. pro - some of those were still no more than fancier plating. A Martin Committee in perfect condition will not make you sound like one of the greats if you are a marginal player,

No horn will make you sound like one of the greats if you are not - but an Oswal or an Aere might make one of the greats sound like a beginner!

I can't accept the idea that there is no difference between a Yamaha 4335 or 5335 (both fine intermediate horns) and an 8335 - I've played them. There is a big difference.

The same follows for equating a 1961 Holton Galaxy to the same year's 51LB or Stratodyne. There is a huge difference in playing characteristics even though the Galaxy was an amazing horn for the price.

This gets even more pronounced if you compare a Schilke MII to a B or S series horn.

All of these intermediate examples are good horns in many respects, and a skilled player will sound great on them. But that skilled player can sound great on a pro horn with less effort.

And, all of these intermediate examples still also differentiate from student horns markedly.

The lower ring is clearly not an OEM part with its nickel finish. The half-reversed slide is clear, and has a Bach stop rod assembly on it, which precludes an aftermarket adjustable ring. It does not appear to be a trigger because it is back against the valves with the slide in. Unfortunately, in the pictures of him playing, he does not appear to use it. I am not even sure how it is attached to the horn.

@rowuk
Our experience and perception relative to true Mt. Vernon, Mt. Vernon 180, and Early Elkhart Bachs is vastly different. I am not used to hearing people knock those. As for the earlier modern Elkhart 180s, I know pros who started on randomly picked stock 180S37s in high school around 1979/80 and, though they can play anything they want today, still have that high school horn in their arsenal - one rather prominent player as backup to his primary Bb, a modern 37 (though he admittedly has to spend most of his time on a 229).

That being said, the best way to pick a Bach is to play a lot of them. Bachs are not consistent in the finer details with the intent of having a variety of horns to fit a variety of players. Many will not be a perfect fit for you, a few will. Its not a quality problem, its a quality choice - to have product as diverse as those who play them. What works for you may suck for me and vice versa. (though really, people like to exaggerate - "suck" is just an egotistical statement based on believing we are that much better than everyone else)

@newell-post Actually with the Bach Bb Strad, just the 180s, there are 3 forms of construction (180, LT180, LR180), and a mix of bells and leadpipes depending on which of those 3 you pick, that add up to 1470 options for construction, bell, bore, alloy, bell weight, and leadpipe. Then there are 2 tuning slide geometries, so 2940. Then there are 4 options for throws (triggers or rings on 1st & 3rd), which brings us to 11,760 configurations. Add in the option of a spit key on third and the 6 finish options, and you get 141,120 different configurations before taking into account the myriad of engraving options. (and those numbers predate the new option of a 72 bell with a French bead, so its actually more now)

Today the term “student instrument” is often associated with trumpet shaped objects that have terrible playing characteristics, but more-over tend to fall apart in your hands and cannot be repaired – if not because of the complete lack of any parts, then because the labor costs more than the horn.

That is not what the term meant in the 20th century when the student market was first acknowledged with White’s “King Junior” and “Student Prince”, and around the same time with companies and lines such as York’s Grand Rapids Band Instrument Co., Holton’s Collegiate brand, Martin’s Indiana Band Instrument Co., etc. The first was the “King Junior”, and what the catalog said about the renaming of that particular lower cost, and at that time already 8-year-old model, was “This is a ‘Long Model’ Cornet especially built to fit the needs of beginners who want to learn on a high grade, quality instrument that is not too high in price. The Junior Cornet is identical in quality workmanship with every other ‘King’, the lower price is made possible by simplicity in the engraving and trimmings. The instrument is not elaborately designed with respect to ferrules, etc. It is neatly and plainly finished. Great attention has been given to the proportions, valve action, etc., so that the instrument is exceptionally easy playing. The intonation is the same as all other ‘King’ cornets. It is a fine sensible model that will allow the beginner to make rapid progress.”

Some of the claims are a stretch, such as the ferrules that were actually more elaborate and expensive to make than normal King ones so that they matched the aesthetic used by White’s mentor McMillin for his Crown brand (White obviously sold these to McMillin for stencil too), and in my opinion, the intonation is not as reliable as on a King Improved Long Model – but I will admit it may be better than that of a King Perfecto. Nonetheless, the concept of “Student Instrument” is clearly laid out in this first of its kind acknowledgement of the market.

The best example of the differing tiers of instruments can be found in Leblanc’s system for Holton after 1965:
T-100 series of models: Professional level. Excellent tone, response and projection, but requires some skill to control effectively.
T-200 series of models: Professional level, but adapted to the unique playing characteristics favored by an artist.
T-300 series of models: Advanced Intermediate level. More secure centering thus less ease of bending and matching, excellent projection, very responsive, less color to the tonal spectrum - often specializing in a particular sound or genre.
T-400 series of models: Intermediate level. More secure centering thus less ease of bending and matching, excellent projection, not as easy responding as higher levels, less breadth of color to the tonal spectrum.
T-500 series of models: Step-up student level. Secure centering, not as easy to project, higher resistance and inertia, mostly core tone – often artist-linked for promotion (but not played by).
T-600 series of models: Student/Beginner level. Secure centering, not as easy to project, higher resistance and inertia, mostly core tone and built like a tank to take abuse and still keep working.

Definitely do not donate this horn. This is not a disposable instrument for some beginner to trash.

Most variants of k-mods sell for between $500 and $1,000 depending on condition and features. The condition of yours puts it at about $900 in my opinion - so long as the valves are still reasonably tight (and the lack of use suggests they would be).

"K-modified" is believed to be a reference to the design engineer at Selmer in the mid-century who came up with these changes, Keith Ecker. Ecker moved over to Holton when Leblanc purchased them in 1965 and headed-up the custom shop there.

Thanks to a covid outbreak a month ago, our brass quartet this year was just me - opening, and then after the sermon to the end (2 services) as I had to trade places with the choir and they were the first half of the service. I would post my descant and, well, not sure what to call them - embellishment parts? - here, but I suspect descant trumpet parts in bass clef would not be well received. . . . .

(what can I say, when I am in a hurry, like making up new parts, I stick with what comes easiest)

For those who have been asking for the book to be enhanced, a second edition is now available (Amazon). The second edition is 25% longer, includes many of the tables found a trumpet-history.com, and is updated with chapters for the last 2 decades. Some of the specific requests accommodated:

• Subject index.
• Index of models depicted (410+, first edition was just shy of 350).
• Many minor early makers now included, however briefly.
• The occasional dark photo now digitally brightened and enhanced.
• Stories contributed by Dale Olson, Byron Autrey, Roy Hempley and others since publication of the first edition.

Freud 101 I suspect....

That was a time in life when the big things were planned for you, when you could have confidence that, though not under your control, your life path was not just safely set, but on course. The daily global experience of the last year has been in stark contrast to that for everyone, where major elements of one's future are again outside of one's control, but this time heading in very negative directions. The one year anniversary of the waking nightmare turns subconscious thought to times free of that dynamic.

Those are the "normal" dreams

Then there is the wrong music. For others it is being back in junior high and you don't know your schedule or cant find your locker. The world has changed from what we are used to, and it is not clear what the notes to this new song are. Just like trying to wing it by ear when you have the wrong part up, we are all groping in the dark for a path forward in an as-yet unrevealed new modality of socio-cultural norms.

And at times, like having no mouthpiece, we wonder if those depending on us will notice we are faking it.

Well, looks like I will be solo trumpet this Easter - cant rehearse - other 3 in the quartet were all in the church the day 30% of attendees got the bug.

People need to wear masks - all the time. But no, they all take them off to sing - including the choir standing in the balcony singing out over everyone.

But then the same people who cant answer their phone without taking off their mask for some inexplicable reason, are scared of a trumpet. If a trumpet needed a mask, it wouldn't need a spit key.

From the orifice at the base of the mouthpiece cup to just the valves, the expansion is nearly 1500%. PV=nRT. Expansion slows and cools. This is how you make a simple sample dryer for analytical systems where timing is not an issue.

So long as that choir is singing right over the top of me, 6" not 6' away, with no masks, I'm not seeing any point in masking my bell.

(Of course, a couple more Sundays and there may be no congregation left)

@georgeb said in where are they made ?:

Well even though Bach claimed on the bell the TR3002H I purchased in 2016 is made in the U.S.A. .Some here feel that Bach is not telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth, ...

I have stood next to the annealing furnace controls watching through the glass as TR-300 bell seams were flattened in the power hammer cell at Bach Elkhart prior to shipment to Eastlake. That was 2017.

Conn-Selmer still builds trumpets at the King Eastlake and Bach Elkhart plants. These include (appropriately enough) those sold under the Bach and King names. Those sold under the Aristocrat and Prelude names on the other hand are stencilled Asian imports.

In past years, the Bach TR-200, TR-500, TR-501, TR-600 and TR-711 and similar horns were Bach-branded imports. The TR-300 was for all of about 9 months in 2009, all other TR-300s are now, as they were previously, made at Eastlake with Bach Elkhart bells. Conn-Selmer came to their senses a couple years ago and started segmenting the imports into the other brand names to halt the damage they were doing to the Bach and King names.

As with all things Committee, a lot of this comes down to what one desires.

As far as playing, I prefer the original Handcraft, but I am in the minority - and also suspect I might like the new one best if I could afford one...

The heavier feel, if more than just psychology, cannot be the plating. That much silver would leave the horn dead. It is a little surprising it would be heavier than a Deluxe, given the difference in trim, but the first thing to check would be the wall thickness of the tubing. It is possible heavier stock was one of the things RMC used to cut costs (as backward as that sounds, but more rugged means fewer QC fails - plus would allow for commonization of stock with student builds)

Back when these were built, lacquer would certainly play different than raw brass, plating shouldn't have any effect (see the Schilke paper in the surviving loyalist material). At the end of the day, the silver plating looks great, and could only be critiqued as making the horn lighter, brighter and more responsive than it would have been with original lacquer - just as if left raw.

As a player or a display item for a collector, this horn seems excellent (just not representative for a historian)

Wow. What amazing work. It may scare some people into thinking its not real. You wouldn't have seen that level of perfection originally. (just look at the serial number - that's typical Martin precision).

Better than new!

The pictures show a Courtois "Arban's model" cornet - the characteristic feature being how the two loops intertwine. Those came out around 1870 give or take, and Arban finished college in 1845 (wrote his method in 1864), so it stands to reason he played something else first.

Someone other than the manufacturer later adding a name to the space set aside on a presentation cornet, and thus differing in orientation and style, would be pretty normal. What bothers me about the subject horn is how astoundingly sloppy the engraving is. It isn't just done without a stencil, it looks like freehand without so much as a center line (or secondary center lines for what should be symmetrical shapes) - like the person doing it didn't know much about the craft (such as a music or department store apprentice engraver). I find it hard to believe that could have come out of Besson.

I wonder what evidence Josh obtained before buying this.

Notice the mix of makers as far as component parts on some of these examples.

When it comes to Muck, I wouldn't rule anything out. Like Rolls-Royce, what started out crafted in-house with some sub-assemblies supplied transitioned over time into a brand/company that was nothing but production coordination - no fabrication.