Posts made by OldSchoolEuph

@conndirectorfan Sort of.
The first few have the pinkie hook (the Arigra being the most familiar of course), but not the bell garland. The LeGrand cornet has the same style bell garland (except it happens to be nickel on the LeGrand vs brass on the subject horn) but not the hook. The Amati on EBay has an interesting French bead rim and the pinkie hook looks like a middle school shop student's attempt at the Riedl design (wow would those sharp edges be good at preventing anyone applying pressure!), so there might be a very interesting story there (of loss of competence in the workforce and how that impacts build).

These do support the possibility that the subject horn is an Amati from the decade following collectivization.

I was contacted for information regarding "Tempo" 23756 back on mid October. The valve caps and some other details look mid-century, but could be earlier. The pinkie hook really stands out. It is of the same unique shape and style used by Anton Riedl of Graslitz. Also it has a garlanded rim on the bell, though a very subtle one (just a strip of brass trapped in the rim bead and tight to the flare about 1/2" wide). Riedl was among those firms decimated by the ethnic cleansing of Bohemia in 1945/6, but I believe did contribute some to Amati. Has anyone seen an Amati with a garland and a Riedl pinkie hook before?

@richard-iii said in Vintage Horn Eye Candy:

I just had to dig out my Conn 77A. Sorry no picture. It is a standard configuration for a cornet. The 76A, which replaced the 77A is quite a different design. The tuning slide, I'm guessing, is on the bell tubing? Anybody know of any other Conn cornet with that feature?

There are many many examples of tuning at the bell tail from Pan-American to Puje, including all of the opera-glass tuning Conns (That front slide is for quick change only on those, not tuning). This Martin Imperial is another and even manages to still keep it on the right hand side of the horn rather than the left hand most think of as the back.

@tptguy said in 40's Holton info:

@oldschooleuph Mostly looking for Revelation 45 stuff. Form I understand from the Trumpet- History site' the bell numbers ( at least early 40's to mid 50's) where actually references to the leadpipes and not the bells themselves. So are the bells the same,(same mandrel shape) with different numbers ? My '45 Rev. 45 and '46 Rev. 48 bells have a verry different sound to them when tapped lightly, with the 48 in original gold lacquer( rings like a bell) seems thicker and the 45 in raw brass( sounds more like a garbage can lid) feels lighter and thinner.
That said, even with all it's issues, the Rev.45 sounds great, crisp and bright, not far from the brightness of a '50 Olds Studio

The bells were similar between the 45s and the 48s, except that the 45 was choked (Per Holton literature of the early 50s). That being said, I have paired 48 bells just a couple years apart that are clearly different. 1940s brass supplies and tolerances made for significant variation horn to horn.

@tptguy said in 40's Holton info:

@tptguy Oldschool...

I ame using a Strad. rod with som snall hex nuts(NY Strad style, but smaller ) that a good buddy made special for me, the rod from Strads fit perfect on the holton and look to be the same 5-40 thread, also fits all my Holtons.... I think the Conn set ups are 6-32 or 6-36 thread, my 2 cents

Yes, most Conns I have seen are a larger thread - Connstellation nut sets that I have bought on EBay though were 5-40 and looked just like that (maybe the Chinese supplier got it wrong - haven't actually tried them on a Conn)

Parts for the 45/48 models are exceptionally rare. You also need to delineate between the pre-war and post-war models, as well as then between "Revelation" (reversed construction, lightly braced) and "Deluxe" (standard construction, heavily braced). This gets further complicated by the later 50s reassignment of the "Revelation" name to the next generation of what had been the "Deluxe" design.

The 48 leadpipe is the rarest of all because this was their first experiment with multiple inflexion points and at those points, the added frictional forces stressed the brass leading to cracking being common down the road. Parts horns are the best bet - but still don't come up very often.

Doesn't have to be the whole horn, does it?

@Dale-Proctor said in Books about Trumpets:

Yes, I have a rotary valve cornet, and there are return springs. Not on the valves themselves, but springs are involved in returning the valve to the straight through position. I was just responding to the bad joke Dr. Go was making a few posts ago.

Allen valves. Every time I see one of these (given how remarkably well some of these antiques still play) it really makes me wonder about valve alignments being mostly placebo. . . .

Ummm, anybody ever notice my avatar?

full disclosure though - I'm planning a second edition that will be about 20% larger, hopefully this spring.

@Newell-Post said in Some Encouraging Voting News:

FWIW, I appear to have won my campaign for election to the city council of my small-ish Silicon Valley city.

Local politics - wow, that brings back memories. My congratulations now and condolences when it sinks in.

Hope you have a strong liver!

@flugelgirl said in Favorite Cornet:

The story I heard about Reynolds is that he was an employee at King and made horns after hours at the factory with his name on them. He got fired and had to produce them elsewhere. Maybe true, maybe not, but it explains the similarities for sure!

WOW. No.

Foster A Reynolds apprenticed at JW York in Grand Rapids under Pops. While not his declared area of expertise, he developed a solid understanding of valves while there. Around 1905, he was hired away by HN White, who was still operating out of a rented loft at the time. Reynolds learned more about brass design and business from White, but also shared what he had learned at York about valves - leading to the "Improved Model" series around 1911.

After 30 years there, Reynolds retired from HN White, and together with his brother Harper and Max Scherl (investor), he opened his own enterprise under the Reynolds name, and concurrently a student division named Ohio Band Instrument Co. He had expected tp be a figure-head, but his type-A personality kept him on the job 24/7. Among others, OBIC built the stencil Roth 300 trumpet. The Reynolds designs were indeed similar to what Reynolds had been doing at HN White (It wouldn't become King Musical Instruments until 1965), as designing a new lone was not what he had in mind as "backing off".

But Reynolds still wanted to retire. In 1946, as soon as the war was over and it was possible, Foster and Harper sold their interest in the company to Scherl & Roth. Most of what we see under the Reynolds name, made after 1946, is not related to FA Reynolds.

Shortly thereafter however Chicago Musical Instruments lured Reynolds out of retirement to help restructure FE Olds. There in 1949, with Harper making the required additional tooling on a lathe that still exists in the custody of a member of the extended FE Olds Corporate family's care, he launched the Ambassador line.

At Olds, Reynold took on an apprentice, Zigmant Kanstul - probably hoping to hand over the reigns one day and finally get some R&R. Zig was there when FA died of a massive heart attack in 1960 on the shop floor at Fullerton. It should come as no surprise that like the mentor he looked up to the rest of his days, Zig too died at his plant.

OK, I just grabbed a few threads from the first pages I saw as experiment - not sure pasting into a thread here works too well.

Any thoughts?

Reynolds "Professional" Model Trumpet 1930s
Discussion in 'Vintage Trumpets / Cornets' started by Efig, May 18, 2017.
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1. May 18, 2017#1

EfigPiano User
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Look I got another horn off eBay,
Vintage F.A. Reynolds "Professional" Model B Trumpet & Case 1930's large bore

Let's cut to the chase, this ain't no large bore right?
Anyone else have experience with these low serial Reynolds?

This one looked good and I saw one thread about the 30s Professional models but I didn't see anything about a "00" stamping on 2nd valve casing.
Doesn't look like much work on the horn, seller did not see any red rot and there was a decent pop on all slides when I asked the seller to check compression.
2. May 18, 2017#2

amziForte User
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I play with a guy who loves them and owns several. His are very bright, even the sterling bell model he owns. Not my cup of tea, but then again I'm not playing them. Oh yeah, should be a .448 or .458 bore.
3. May 18, 2017#3

EfigPiano User
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But hey, It looks nice!
Could make a good lead horn.
Nice engraving mmmmmmhm
4. May 18, 2017#4

acarcidoForte User
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Those early Reynolds are basically King Liberties with a few design and cosmetic changes.
5. May 18, 2017#5

gwood66Pianissimo User
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This might be the information you are looking for:

Reynolds (Professional, Sterling) Trumpets - Contempora Corner
6. May 18, 2017#6

EfigPiano User
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Well I'm gonna get it on Monday hopefully and let you all know my opinions on it, I coulda sworn Randy Cole had a video demonstrating the silver bell model...
7. May 19, 2017#7

PascalouisianaMezzo Piano User
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I was tempted myself. Lucky you.
Acarcido says that they basically King Liberties, but (to me) they are more like Blessings: dual ML bore with micro tuner.
My personal experience with dual bore trumpet is that, what ever the bore size is, they are very free blowing. This one shouldn't be an exception.
I own one from 1950, and it's a very well built trumpet that sounds great. It is said that the earlier ones are even better.
Like I said, lucky you. Congrats.
8. May 19, 2017#8

EfigPiano User
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Pascalouisiana said: ↑
I was tempted myself. Lucky you.
Acarcido says that they basically King Liberties, but (to me) they are more like Blessings: dual ML bore with micro tuner.
My personal experience with dual bore trumpet is that, what ever the bore size is, they are very free blowing. This one shouldn't be an exception.
I own one from 1950, and it's a very well built trumpet that sounds great. It is said that the earlier ones are even better.
Like I said, lucky you. Congrats.
If they play anything like the Blessings that I had, large smooth sound without much overtones than it would be an awesome backup horn for me.
9. May 22, 2017#9

EfigPiano User
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Well, got the horn in ok but still decent condition, horn does not play correctly, there is definitely a leak somewhere, I can't find that leak, I've checked the waterkeys, the valves and joints. The valves are in too good of shape and have too good of compression to have any blow-by. Perhaps there is gunk in the horn that I'm not able to clean yet. I will find out soon enough or have my tech look at it. Some ding/push fix needed but my tech can make them dissiapear, at the loss of just a little lacquer loss. The horn still plays and the notes do come out easily and seems to respond very accurately note by note, can't play down low or up high cause of the leak.

I'll keep you all updated if anyone is interested, as for now, this seems like a very good playing horn, a Pre-War Renolds low serial nice engraving on bell. Just a little work and it could be a daily player.
10. May 23, 2017#10

taylordivingPianissimo User
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Good find Efig! At one point I was looking for a similar vintage Reynolds Professional (before Reynolds "retired" and sold the company) as I had two post sale Professionals that were ok but not fantastic. In your case it seems like the price was right and the horn's going home to Cleveland!

2. May 23, 2017#11

EfigPiano User
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The horn is up for sale, it's a very interesting horn. Very even and open blow. A bit more open then what I'm used to, then again, I play a lot of horns with heavy bells and horns with more resistance. The bell flare is also a bit more wider and open, which I figure would contribute to the horn's very open blow. Tone not too bright, I would actually call it bright and smokey (I know it sounds crazy), compression is decent for a 30s horn, great compression on all 3 valves, pistons do not show much wear. The valves are also very fast, one of the fastest valves on a horn I've ever tried!
I will be selling this along with my other horns, need to downsize to just 1-3 horns.
This would make a nice lead, symphony horn.

Best way to describe it, it is a more open King Liberty 2B trumpet (which are great players) with more fancy engraving, styling and nickel silver slides. Pretty horn.

Will be up on marketplace shortly and also on eBay.
Prefer it if you bought it off here.
3. May 23, 2017#12

PascalouisianaMezzo Piano User
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Hi,
Did you find the leak or what ever the problem was to make it hard to play?
4. May 23, 2017#13

EfigPiano User
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Pascalouisiana said: ↑
Hi,
Did you find the leak or what ever the problem was to make it hard to play?
Oops, forgot to mention there was no leak, the crap I found inside the horn was shocking. I did a full cleaning, soup and warm water thorough tube scrubbing with brush. I oiled the slides and applied valve oil, waxed the raw brass areas on horn and then to top it off, I used Old English Furniture dark wood polish to rehydrate and polish the old old nitrocellulose lacquer on remaining areas on horn.
5. May 23, 2017#14

PascalouisianaMezzo Piano User
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How does she look now? Photos?
6. May 23, 2017#15

EfigPiano User
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I'll get then up later, sorry!
7. May 23, 2017#16

EfigPiano User
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The pics are here,

https://postimg.org/gallery/3hze9pd24/
Pretty good looking horn, The valves on this one is smooth and fast. Sound is clear and open.

PM me if interested, if we're close I'll do free shipping.

375 with your choice of several mouthpieces I don't need anymore.
I'll have more horns I'm selling off in the marketplace later.

Dad's horn
Discussion in 'Vintage Trumpets / Cornets' started by OldKing, May 25, 2017.

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May 25, 2017#1
OldKing
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Picked up my dad's horn from a "tune-up" today. Around 1932 King Silvertone, "Artist Bore".

20170525_154817.jpg 20170525_154716.jpg

He played it at Austin High, when there was only ONE high school in Austin (and they didn't let girls in the band). His judge for a solo once was none other than Herbert L. Clarke himself. (No pressure.) He also played in a dance band after high school and the tenor player set him up on a date with a girl that would become my mom. So, I kinda owe me being here to this horn (and probably a margarita on their anniversary, when they were sure they were through having kids).

Is there more than a snowball's chance in hell of finding the third slide stop screw available anywhere? I hate things being incomplete, but's that's just the OCD rearing its ugly head.

20170525_154716.jpg

20170525_154817.jpg
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May 25, 2017#2
barliman2001
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What a gorgeous horn!
May 25, 2017#3
Pascalouisiana
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I agree with you Barliman!
May 25, 2017#4
Pascalouisiana
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I tried to get a water valve screw for my Liberty 2B from H.N.W White website, and never had an answer. I hope that you will find someone here with a solution.
I know that some techs can make a new one from scratch. Good luck.
(I love your OP. Great introduction.)
May 25, 2017#5
Dennis78
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Awesome story! Music and magic. Good luck hunting parts!
May 26, 2017#6
OldSchoolEuph
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That's a very unique screw. The wire gage is probably #4, but the thread is definitely not 40TPI like hardware store stuff.
Liberty 3rd stop.jpg

The part has been out of production since before WWII. So you either need one off a horn in someone's parts pile, which is possible if you go to a big enough shop. Otherwise, you will need to go to someone who specializes in recreating the parts for restorations (I get such things from Robb Stewart in California).
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May 26, 2017#7
veery715
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I third Barliman!
May 26, 2017#8
Kevin Whiting
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I fourth Barliman!

Sweet!

Kevin
May 26, 2017#9
namatjira
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They really don't make em like they used to. Good luck with the missing screw.
Jun 18, 2017#10
FrenchBesson
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OldKing said: ↑
Picked up my dad's horn from a "tune-up" today. Around 1932 King Silvertone, "Artist Bore".

View attachment 15411 View attachment 15410

He played it at Austin High, when there was only ONE high school in Austin (and they didn't let girls in the band). His judge for a solo once was none other than Herbert L. Clarke himself. (No pressure.) He also played in a dance band after high school and the tenor player set him up on a date with a girl that would become my mom. So, I kinda owe me being here to this horn (and probably a margarita on their anniversary, when they were sure they were through having kids).

Is there more than a snowball's chance in hell of finding the third slide stop screw available anywhere? I hate things being incomplete, but's that's just the OCD rearing its ugly head.

View attachment 15410

View attachment 15411
Click to expand...
Rob Stewart can make that part.

Left-Handed Holton Revelation
Discussion in 'Vintage Trumpets / Cornets' started by Anthony7500, May 29, 2017.

Tags: 1920's holton left hand silver plate vintage
May 29, 2017#1
Anthony7500
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So a while back on eBay I won a Holton trumpet with a twist, the horn was Left-Handed. Everything was mirrored on the horn. I am curious tho, does anyone else own or know about another left-handed holton. If so when was your's made, mine was 1923. Lastly, do you know what one would of had to do to acquire one of these horns at the time

Pictures:
http://imgur.com/a/7ewPj

P.S.
Yes, I did post about this on Horn-u-Copia but I have not received any info about the horn or similar horns
May 30, 2017#2
OldSchoolEuph
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I have not seen one, but I am not surprised. The dynamic in those days was one of more direct interaction between firms like HN White, Holton, Conn, etc. and their customers. Customers were encouraged to write in and request horns be sent on a trial basis and there was just a lot of personal interaction. For less common models, such as an aida or fanfare trumpet (or a C or D for that matter), those were never stock, or even display, those were built if someone wrote to the company and asked. So, if someone wrote that they needed a left handed Revelation, I am sure that Holton built one and sent it out. The upcharge, if any, was probably not much. It was a different time.

New Proportions
Discussion in 'Vintage Trumpets / Cornets' started by Dennis78, May 10, 2017.

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May 10, 2017#1
Dennis78
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Got it today! My new 1908/9 Holton NP short cornet. So far it's living up to my expectations. I only learned my Coutrier model even though it has a shepherds crook it was their long cornet after I got it. And then I had to have their shorty. This IS a cornet for sure! The long model is cool and sounds good and all but wasn't brass band worthy. This definitely is. I'd post pics but I still can't but there are plenty out there to look at.
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May 11, 2017#2
OldSchoolEuph
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Holton's first cornet was a compact late 19th century model using bits that resembled the Bohland & Fuchs stencils of the day, but was made in-house at his store. As small 19th century cornets go, it was a great one (built 1900/1-1907/8). The New Proportion short model was their second design and appeared as the first half of the Chicago factory was nearing completion (initially made in rented loft space). It is quite a cornet. Like the Kings of the same period, it is larger than the 19th century cornets, but the Holton plays very much like them - only with more presence and depth of tone. It embodies the bulking-up of the cornet as an instrument, which trend derived from the shifting image of the US in the world at the time. A bigger more self-important nation naturally must have bigger and bigger sounding cornets (then still seen as the lead popular music instrument - the guitar of its day) - at least that's a theory. Over the following 20 years, cornets would get steadily larger, heavy and with the long models, more like trumpets. By then, trumpets took over the role as "the" instrument to play in popular music. Of the totality of the larger early 20th century short cornets, the Holton New Proportion, in my opinion, is the most traditional playing yet still trend embodying of the lot.
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May 11, 2017#3
Dennis78
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I like what you say! I'd also like to nab one of the old models too
May 13, 2017#4
Bflatman
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I have a different take, rather than a bigger nation demanding a bigger instrument I believe social factors drove the size of cornets and trumpets to change following other needs.

At the turn of the century the trumpet was large and the cornet was small, the trumpet projected too much so the cornet was the instrument of choice for soloists and fronting bands, I would point to the significant number of cornettists and the relative paucity of trumpeters at the time. I see a top three Red Nichols, Bix Beiderbecke, Louis Armstrong. All three were cornettists.

With the advent of prohibition and the opening of speak-easys bands were employed but the cornettists fronting found that the cornet did not project enough. This led to developments in instrument design that resulted in larger cornets to rival the projection of trumpets and trumpets also changed to be more cornet like, I imagine that during this upheaval many cornettists simply jumped ship and went with trumpets as they became more lyrical in timbre.

Couple this with the ability to play higher easier with a trumpet and as music tastes changed it appears that trumpets simply made more sense.
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May 13, 2017#5
Dennis78
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What is ment by bigger in this discussion? It's still way smaller than any of my long cornets and no bigger seemingly than my cr310
May 31, 2017#6
Dennis78
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IMG_0795.JPG
Here's a photo now that I can do that
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May 31, 2017#7
OldSchoolEuph
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OK, some clarification:

Bflatman has done an excellent job of outlining the socio-cultural drivers for the evolution of the long cornet in the teens and twenties (and that being a part of the process of transition to the trumpet as the lead voice in the next genres of popular music emerging at the time). The larger format short cornet is an innovation of the 1890s-1900s (and itself perhaps another precursory step leading to the long cornets - HN White introduced the earliest "Long Model" by both name and form that I know of around 1897/8 at the same time as his larger format short cornet). By larger, I mean physically larger. Place the New Proportion Short Model next to it's predecessor and the contrast is striking. Similarly, place the first King cornets next to the Bohland & Fuchs stencils HN White first sold (the ones with numbers on second valve that are commonly found as Sears Marceau Paris, or Champion Silver Piston, etc.) and there is a very noticeable difference in the physical size, bore, weight, tube wall thickness, etc. of the instrument.

Good luck finding an Old Model by the way. They are exceptionally rare and all but two of the survivors that I know of are all locked away in the same collection in Alaska. . . .
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May 31, 2017#8
MJ
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Interesting discussion!
May 31, 2017#9
veery715
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Yeah - alt-right trumpet/cornet history!
May 31, 2017#10
Dennis78
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Well here's something. My cornet came complete with a slight bend at the edge of the bell that I've since corrected. It was quite stout but came out well. The other day I messed up and dropped my top of the line Cecilio which by the way is a very nice light weight job that impressed me. Anyway bent the bell back and with nothing more than my thumbs corrected the issue. A thread on the oTHer site has been talking about vintage vs new metal and right there I felt it.

OK, lets give this a try - trick is, how do you copy a whole thread and put it here ???

Wow, turns out kinda messy.

Vintage Holton Professional Balanced Trumpet 1934 at ACB?
Discussion in 'Vintage Trumpets / Cornets' started by CompleteRookie, May 1, 2016.
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1. May 1, 2016#1

CompleteRookiePianissimo User
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1934 Holton Professional Trumpet in raw Brass - Austin Custom Brass Web Store

Very strange, could be a custom built one?

It has the reversed leadpipe design already sported by earlier 20s Revelations but this one is a balanced model (and the only one I've seen on vintage Holtons).
Can't find any info on it. Looks rather nice, I've never seen that bell deco on any Holton before.

The name of the horn is Holton "Professional" Trumpet.
2. May 1, 2016#2

BrassBandMajorFortissimo User
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That looks like a custom horn. Only similar horn I see to that is a Holton Collegiate peashooter from the 30s
3. May 1, 2016#3

CompleteRookiePianissimo User
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If only it was 300 dollars cheaper I would buy it. The bell deco looks slightly faded. Patches and valves could cost another 4-500 to fully adjust as well.
4. May 2, 2016#4

ChopsGoneForte User
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Look on pages 5 and 6 in the 1934 Holton catalog:

1934 Holton Revelation Band Instruments | Saxophone.org
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5. May 2, 2016#5

richtomForte User
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Trent Austin is a very honest dealer and does not overcharge for horns. His price is a fair one or he would not price it there.
There is likely no one here who knows more about horns than Trent.
You certainly can call him and see what he might take for it.
Rich T.
6. May 2, 2016#6

CompleteRookiePianissimo User
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richtom said: ↑
Trent Austin is a very honest dealer and does not overcharge for horns. His price is a fair one or he would not price it there.
There is likely no one here who knows more about horns than Trent.
You certainly can call him and see what he might take for it.
Rich T.
Yeah, I've bought a Selmer Signet from him before, just wish he did a video for all vintge horns he lists. Would like to see his approach to some older ones.
7. Jun 10, 2016#7

OldSchoolEuphMezzo Piano User
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It's a bit late to be replying to this old thread, but in the interest of answering the question (given that the horn is still available), here goes:

In 1932, Holton revamped the trumpets and cornets, the most distinctive element of this being the "X" rear bell brace. The 1927 changes that altered the first valve porting had been called "The New Revelation" line of Holton Band Instruments. This 1932 third generation of the Revelation along with the aesthetically altered H-C cornets and the Models 26 & 28, was dubbed the "New Professional" line of "Holton Revelation Band Instruments" (the catalog name). For the first time, Holton started putting what looked like model names on the bell of other than artist-linked instruments. The larger bore Symphony trumpet was marked "Symphony", while the standard bore were marked either "Revelation" in the lacquer finishes, or "Professional" in silver plated finishes. The pea-shooter "New Professional Streamline" trumpet (with undersprung Ideal line valves) was also marked "Revelation" in lacquer - I have not seen one in the plated finish.

This horn, looking at the general texture and the bell engraving in particular in the photos, has been buffed and blasted to remove what was left of the original finish. The top of the casings is a bit of a surprise for what should have been (and in a few tight corners appears to have been) a plated horn.

The horn can be seen in both labelings in the Holton Model Guide at www.trumpet-history.com .
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8. Jun 1, 2017#8

EaracheNew Friend
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Mar 28, 2017
Chicago
Well well, I just found this thread-----
I bought that horn about a month ago after looking at it repeatedly for over a year on the ACB site and Ebay. Finally took the bait in spite of the expense because I couldn't resist the balanced design (which I'm a sucker for) and because I love love love my 1939 Model 48 and am kind of getting Holton fever. Time will tell if it's a keeper as it's off getting its valves refitted now. In for a penny, in for a pound I guess----I really couldn't make much of a judgement on how it played with the valves the way they were.
OldSchoolEuph----very interesting observation about it having once been silver plated! I'll have to take a closer look when I get it back, but the raw brass does have an unusual texture to it-----smooth (as in not scratch or matte finished) but not really buffed quite either..... It does make it look old and like it's got a long story....
I wonder if it really is a one-off? One thing I did notice is that it's tricky getting the main slide off because it's so close to the end of the bell----the water key hits the bead before the slide is completely out. If you push down the water key it just barely clears. Would a production horn have such a quirk?
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9. Jun 1, 2017#9

Dennis78Forte User
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The Bach 184 and cr310 are designed in such a way that the finger ring doesn't really clear the bell.
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10. Jun 1, 2017#10

OldSchoolEuphMezzo Piano User
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Apr 1, 2011
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When the slide is right at the point of coming out on a stock model 30, the lever is 7/8" from the rim bead. If yours is hitting, something has been modified from the original. Is there anything unusual (like a 1-1/2" sleeve or ferrule) where the bell stem meets the valve block? I would say to look for bell and leadpipe scars from original brace placement, but the refinishing, or more accurately de-finishing, would probably have erased those.

2. Jun 1, 2017#11

OldSchoolEuphMezzo Piano User
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Apr 1, 2011
Michigan
Well that is odd. I just did an EBay search and that horn is still listed.

Looking at the pictures with a stock example in my hands, the receiver sits about 1-1/2" further forward than stock and the X brace is more centered in the receiver sleeve. The valves and whole body are dfinately closer to the bell rim. But the bell stem is not spliced nor the leadpipe cut down. It actually looks as if the bell were rebent to achieve this more balanced arrangement. The bell droops a bit, probably was dropped, and the photos are not the best for orthagonal comparisons. The work is certainly expert, but I don't think it is factory. It's just not the way Holton would have done it (placing the receiver ring ahead of the bell crook).

But why is it still on EBay???
Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
3. Jun 1, 2017#12

EaracheNew Friend
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Mar 28, 2017
Chicago
Wow, I'm a little bummed to think that Holton wasn't behind the design. Oh well! If it plays well after the valves are done it'll all be good whatever.
As for the Ebay listing, my guess is that ACB forgot to take it down after they sold me the horn----I bought it direct from them since they had it listed on their website, too. I've alerted them that the ebay listing is still up.
Oh, and happily the bell is not as droopy as it looks in the pictures-----in fact, I think they may even have straightened it for me before shipping it. Sweet!
4. Jun 2, 2017#13

OldSchoolEuphMezzo Piano User
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Apr 1, 2011
Michigan
Well the reason I had one sitting just a couple feet away is that I use it as a back-up. These are great horns. I think you will be very happy once the valves are tight.

Something may have been done with the tuning slide as well. The stop rod clamp has been cut off and reattached. I am curious to know if you pull unusually far (indicating a slight shortening for that bell clearance).

If the bell was rebent as I suspect when the horn was stripped, of course temper could be an issue. But anyone skilled enough to do what I see there would have to know what they were doing. My bet is that your horn plays as well as my back-up. I think you are going to enjoy this horn.

There was an earlier post about the price, and for a stock model 30 the statement was reasonable. But this is something special (it's too bad we do not know who the craftsman was) and if it plays like I expect it will, you made a good investment.
Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
5. Jun 2, 2017#14

EaracheNew Friend
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Mar 28, 2017
Chicago
Ooooo, I hope it ends up being a sweet horn----and I thank you for the encouragement. If it's less than sweet, I'll have spent a silly amount of money. But after investing in the valves on a number of vintage horns, I haven't been disappointed yet----there's just no substitute for tight and reliable valves, even if it means investing more dough than a horn is worth. I'm getting pretty used to the idea that it's the only way to turn a vintage horn into an every day player (or main axe, or whatever you want to call it).
I'll report when I get it back in a month or 6 weeks!

@tptguy said in 40's Holton info:

What I have to work with, note, there where 2 gaskets, they are leather, don't know if they are originally suplied on this..one disingrated in the initial bath. Also I assume I reinstall one nut in the wrong place, but it was to keep the screw tight.

On a 30s/early 40s set-up like that one cushion goes where you have one of the locking nuts, the other as you have it. These came with two. If you have a worn out belt or pair of shoes with leather, you can make replacements (or substitute a modern plastic washer). The two nuts are a locking pair - though it is exceedingly rare to come across a Holton with both still there (I have just one - wasn't sure if it was a mistake or a complete set). I have wondered if many came without the second one for locking ....

The length was so short on these I think most people just took out the nuts and washers to get the full length throw and that then led to Holton eliminating those in the 50's screw design.

Blue loctite can work wonders with worn threads, a little heat will break it loose if ever necessary - BUT DONT EVER USE RED!

BTW: I had a bag of those Conn end nuts like the one in Dale's latest pic - they turned out to be 5-40!

The stop rod on third slides of post-war Holtons is not a stop rod, but a stop screw - horizontally mounted (not the sort we think of today). Those screws are 5-40s and thread into the far post with typically a large head cast on the screw. In the 1940s, these could be a length of threaded rod with an end-nut firmly threaded on rather than a cap formed, and typically also had one nut and two bumper discs included.
http://www.trumpet-history.com/Virtual Museum_files/image173.jpg (example is actually 1939, with a cast head on the screw)

By the 1950s, the adjustable nut went away and the cap end was always part of the screw.
http://www.trumpet-history.com/Virtual Museum_files/image186.jpg

5-40 is the same thread as Bach stop-rods and nuts, however the end of the Bach part that is secured into the post is different - which is why it wont work.

I have found that 5-40 stainless allen cap screws make a functional, if not quite as aesthetic, substitute for these.
http://www.trumpet-history.com/Virtual Museum_files/newpic018.JPG

@Newell-Post said in Hello! Welcome to TB, who are you?:

just remember that Texas isn't well, you know, quite representative of the whole country.

And if the Californian invasion of Austin can just be halted, will hopefully stay that way!