There are a lot of factors to consider in this really frustrating situation.

The first is that it indeed is too costly to file suit relative to the loss involved. This gives the business owner power over you.

However, to the extent that you are able to document your statements and not cross the defamation line, you are able to spread the word about the business and the tech, which in the internet age can have significant impact on future sales - giving you power over them.

Lastly, there is the issue that every time you you buff down a horn, you alter it - although a 65 strad bell bow is pretty beefy, so probably not that much of an issue and brand new epoxy will blend seamlessly.

Seems like negotiation with the business owner is the place to start - just have a range of options you consider acceptable predetermined. Should that fail, you can then choose between a scenario where you lose, or one where everybody loses. Personally, I find that follow through makes it clear to the next guy that I am not bluffing..

In any case, I would assume you will not be patronizing that business in the future.

@stumac said in New to my collection:

The bead of the Selmer is not an added piece, just the edge of the bell rolled back and formed into shape. Selmer were not the only ones to have this bead, my Buffet-Crampon has a similar one.

Regards, Stuart

I have not looked at one in person. I would like to see if there are clues as to how it was done.

That would be quite a task to accomplish since the metal folded back would have been stretched out wider on the mandrel and would have to be compressed back to a smaller ring in the process - which is why inserting a ring of flat stock and pinning it with the rolled edge bead is the more typical approach for both free-standing garlands and applied garland-like trim.

"French Bead" is a flattened rolled end to the bell flare. It is sometimes accomplished by folding the metal in on itself (quite hard to do), but more often with a flat ring in place of the usual wire. Bach uses an interesting wire for the Artisan French Bead rim that is a half-round wire in the cross-section. (Not sure where they get that)

"Tone Ring" is a term made popular by companies like FE Olds for adding what for centuries has been called a garland. This is a separate piece of metal generally that is pinched into the rim bead - often nickle for color contrast. There are complex acoustical formulas for installing these such that they float above the bell curve (not sure how valid they are personally) - though this one appears to simply be laminated onto, and of matching brass.

Garlands were commonplace on continental brass instruments for several hundred years (long before valves) and appear on most historic French, German, Austrian, etc. natural and baroque trumpets - extending into the early Austrian, Bohemian and Saxon cornets.

@ROWUK I think you would have to make Dale's book on bias in play testing mandatory reading for anyone filling that out first. For those who have not played a vast variety of horns, not "hearing what you expect" based on comments of others can be a real challenge.

@ROWUK said in Announcing Second Site:

I do not even trust reviews by top players. I know too many with a flavor of the month.

It would be cool if we had standard things to try and rate:

1. Octave intonation
2. how well it speaks at ppp in the low, medium and upper register
3. how well we hear ourselves indoors
4. how well we hear ourselves “outdoors”
5. pitch stability during a crescendo
6. pitch stability with a decrescendo
7. Proportion of core to halo (a lot of thought must go into this test)
8. relative loudness where the sound becomes “brilliant”
9. Stability of horn playability with various mouthpieces
10. Do certain notes “pop out”?
11. ergonomy

retest results after 3 months

Feel free to add additional tests. This basically outlines my procedure to buy a new trumpet. All my students learn this and we use it when buying the “second” instrument.

For 2, are you asking how it sounds, or how easily it speaks?
For 7, I assume you would look for evaluation from ppp to fff, since typically that relationship shifts.

@Pinstriper said in Crickets?:

BAC is handing System Blue, which is now made offshore. Yamaha of course is probably the biggest footprint. Kanstul's offshore Tama line was a thing, dunno what became of that. And there are a smattering of lines running Andalucia horns which are also offshore production.

Tony Scodwell is also launching a new flugel, of course as Kanstul has shut. No word yet on who is doing the production. Seems like everything is either offshore or BAC, and I worry if BAC tries to fill every void. Maybe they can.

I have heard Andalucia lines - the depth of sound knocks you back on your heels. They were a mix of Carol & Kanstul for a time. I assume they have reverted to all Carol then (?)

BAC has been fairly clear about not trying to be everything Kanstul did - it was a bad strategy for Kanstul, and they can see that careful targeted products are a much more prudent course of action.

There is a lot going on out there in the industry and the art, but no one seems to want to talk about it here. I am really surprised that no one has been posting about several topics:

Example #1: BAC integration of Kanstul tooling and design

• The first phase of shop expansion is now up and running
• Kanstul sold off a lot of tooling and never kept great production documentation, forcing BAC to fill in a lot of gaps and ultimately apply bits and pieces to their own new work.
• The train cars arrived from California in August and already new models are hitting the market
• 3 new models, and prototypes refining a fourth are being shown, and some sold
  o Paseo Z72 – a lightweight 72 inspired BAC rework of the Kanstul 1503
  o Plaza – a “legit”, more mainstream all-around professional trumpet
  o Martin Committee – the fourth generation. A new Committee designed with leading edge tech and extensive dimensional and material research into all prior Committees from my 1937 original to the couple of Kanstul 1603s that were built. Designed to manifest the concept “Martin Committee” with the classic sound, broad projection, and same enabling of the player to perform at peak
  o The Benge project – ongoing project to continue the life’s work of Benge and Autrey to perfect the original French sound. Prototypes are being shown
• How the wild-man image of Mike Corrigan is going to mesh with the top tier horns BAC is now developing and selling and the serious professionals they are made for.

Example #2: Tedd Waggoner retired from Bach last July

• With his withdrawal from public contact, and Roy’s retirement from his volunteer role a few years back, who is left who knows the history, the culture, and the current capabilities to support the customer?
• He was part of most every significant design decision at Bach since the move to Elkhart – even admitted the confusing Bundy serials on Bach TR-300s was his doing. Who is steering the ship going forward (his email auto-responds with a sales guy as contact)
• How does one arrange for a custom Bach these days? Tedd always handled those customers, being able to mix the business side with technical understanding of the customer’s desires and ability to help translate that to specifics
• Paulsen was investing heavily in automation for those elements that consistency is desirable and allowing the labor to be focused where human skill is essential. Who will be managing that transition now? Who has that level of understanding as to which task falls into which category?

Example #3: Yamaha continues to move production out of Japan

• Is anyone noticing a change in “quality”?
• Any distinctive traits noted – new elements, missing details?
• Has anyone besides me noticed all of the trim parts on non-Japan-built Yamahas that appear on a myriad of cheaper horns?

Example #4: Voids left by the closure of Kanstul

• Where do DCI groups go for instruments these days? Who is left that specializes?
• What will the next generation of US Army Herald Trumpets be?
• Alternatives for American style low brass (there is the hand built Yamaha York recording bass, but that costs more than my car!)
• What are boutique makers doing
  o Will Flip resource the Wild Thing and Inspiration?
  o What does everyone think of Flip’s new off-shore line?
  o Will Lee Adams work something out with BAC, or go elsewhere. Is the market still there to justify the investment?
  o Anyone try the new Austin Winds horn?

Example #5: Shifting (shrinking) opportunities

• Anyone seeing a decline in church gigs?
• Seems like back-up horns are a thing of the past in the pop scene right now (yes/no?)
• Market for wedding & party bands vs DJ now that software lets almost anyone spin with some marginal competence
• Professional orchestra budget crisis in the wake of the change in tax structure discouraging charitable giving
• Does anyone soundtrack a TV commercial with studio musicians anymore, or has MIDI monopolized that?

Example #6: Repertoire availability

• More and more music is going out of print
• How many people have tried viewing charts over the web on their phone while performing? (what about those of us who can’t see that small screen?)

@Jolter said in BAC Plaza:

Without knowing any trumpeters in particular beginning with "Z", yeah a 1503 must be it, being Kanstul's "72LT clone".

So I take it the Plaza is not a straight up copy of any Kanstul? The name makes me think of the Kanstul Coliseum but the specs don't match up.

[Edited once I realized I was mixing horns]
The Plaza uses a more orchestral bell than that, and it is on a Kanstul-made mandrel. The Coliseum bell is faster taper than even the 72, this bell is less so. BAC is not building a horn with the Coliseum bell yet, though a certain person has been hassling them to do so!

For both the Z72 and the Plaza, just as Zig insisted on, leadpipes are carefully matched to the finished design at BAC, and the body of the horn is designed with next-gen modeling playing a role. Think of the Z72 as a second generation 1503 updated to today's tech (and with that @#*%%$^ BAC brace - nothing's perfect....) and the Plaza as an all-around "legit" horn.

@Jolter said in BAC Plaza:

@OldSchoolEuph said in BAC Plaza:

Kanstul DNA

Is there anything particular about this model that shows a Kanstul heritage? I assume you're seeing details either in the picture or description that I'm overlooking.

If we look at the description of their Paseo 'Z72' Model Trumpet, they leave not-so-veiled hints. Not sure why they couldn't use the trademark, I guess that was not included in the sale. Anyone know exactly what model they mean by "one of the more popular commercial models"?

https://www.coolisbac.com/paseo

The tooling used for this instrument came from a very respected American workshop in Anaheim, CA, and was one of the more popular Commercial Models produced among studio and session players.

I had missed that on the website. That was the first derivative (a fairly direct one) they worked on. I didn't see it had gone public too. Yes, the "Z" stands for a well known name, who's slightly altered version of a Bach 72 that horn uses. I would say it is a 1503, except that it is important to recognize BAC is making their own horns. Mark Kanstul sold the Benge annealing ovens before BAC came along, and with the criticality of working-annealing schedules in bell making (and that the schedules themselves were gone pre-sale when I had inquired), BAC has had to work out their own version and alter the design accordingly to mesh with the bell.

@tjveloce Wow- that house is amazing. Any more interior pics (trying to steal your plans ...)?

Well, I'm at 2075 sqft, and ballpark 320K, but that's exactly where it was 12 years ago ....