There is a lot going on out there in the industry and the art, but no one seems to want to talk about it here. I am really surprised that no one has been posting about several topics:

Example #1: BAC integration of Kanstul tooling and design

• The first phase of shop expansion is now up and running
• Kanstul sold off a lot of tooling and never kept great production documentation, forcing BAC to fill in a lot of gaps and ultimately apply bits and pieces to their own new work.
• The train cars arrived from California in August and already new models are hitting the market
• 3 new models, and prototypes refining a fourth are being shown, and some sold
  o Paseo Z72 – a lightweight 72 inspired BAC rework of the Kanstul 1503
  o Plaza – a “legit”, more mainstream all-around professional trumpet
  o Martin Committee – the fourth generation. A new Committee designed with leading edge tech and extensive dimensional and material research into all prior Committees from my 1937 original to the couple of Kanstul 1603s that were built. Designed to manifest the concept “Martin Committee” with the classic sound, broad projection, and same enabling of the player to perform at peak
  o The Benge project – ongoing project to continue the life’s work of Benge and Autrey to perfect the original French sound. Prototypes are being shown
• How the wild-man image of Mike Corrigan is going to mesh with the top tier horns BAC is now developing and selling and the serious professionals they are made for.

Example #2: Tedd Waggoner retired from Bach last July

• With his withdrawal from public contact, and Roy’s retirement from his volunteer role a few years back, who is left who knows the history, the culture, and the current capabilities to support the customer?
• He was part of most every significant design decision at Bach since the move to Elkhart – even admitted the confusing Bundy serials on Bach TR-300s was his doing. Who is steering the ship going forward (his email auto-responds with a sales guy as contact)
• How does one arrange for a custom Bach these days? Tedd always handled those customers, being able to mix the business side with technical understanding of the customer’s desires and ability to help translate that to specifics
• Paulsen was investing heavily in automation for those elements that consistency is desirable and allowing the labor to be focused where human skill is essential. Who will be managing that transition now? Who has that level of understanding as to which task falls into which category?

Example #3: Yamaha continues to move production out of Japan

• Is anyone noticing a change in “quality”?
• Any distinctive traits noted – new elements, missing details?
• Has anyone besides me noticed all of the trim parts on non-Japan-built Yamahas that appear on a myriad of cheaper horns?

Example #4: Voids left by the closure of Kanstul

• Where do DCI groups go for instruments these days? Who is left that specializes?
• What will the next generation of US Army Herald Trumpets be?
• Alternatives for American style low brass (there is the hand built Yamaha York recording bass, but that costs more than my car!)
• What are boutique makers doing
  o Will Flip resource the Wild Thing and Inspiration?
  o What does everyone think of Flip’s new off-shore line?
  o Will Lee Adams work something out with BAC, or go elsewhere. Is the market still there to justify the investment?
  o Anyone try the new Austin Winds horn?

Example #5: Shifting (shrinking) opportunities

• Anyone seeing a decline in church gigs?
• Seems like back-up horns are a thing of the past in the pop scene right now (yes/no?)
• Market for wedding & party bands vs DJ now that software lets almost anyone spin with some marginal competence
• Professional orchestra budget crisis in the wake of the change in tax structure discouraging charitable giving
• Does anyone soundtrack a TV commercial with studio musicians anymore, or has MIDI monopolized that?

Example #6: Repertoire availability

• More and more music is going out of print
• How many people have tried viewing charts over the web on their phone while performing? (what about those of us who can’t see that small screen?)

@flugelgirl said in Favorite Cornet:

The story I heard about Reynolds is that he was an employee at King and made horns after hours at the factory with his name on them. He got fired and had to produce them elsewhere. Maybe true, maybe not, but it explains the similarities for sure!

WOW. No.

Foster A Reynolds apprenticed at JW York in Grand Rapids under Pops. While not his declared area of expertise, he developed a solid understanding of valves while there. Around 1905, he was hired away by HN White, who was still operating out of a rented loft at the time. Reynolds learned more about brass design and business from White, but also shared what he had learned at York about valves - leading to the "Improved Model" series around 1911.

After 30 years there, Reynolds retired from HN White, and together with his brother Harper and Max Scherl (investor), he opened his own enterprise under the Reynolds name, and concurrently a student division named Ohio Band Instrument Co. He had expected tp be a figure-head, but his type-A personality kept him on the job 24/7. Among others, OBIC built the stencil Roth 300 trumpet. The Reynolds designs were indeed similar to what Reynolds had been doing at HN White (It wouldn't become King Musical Instruments until 1965), as designing a new lone was not what he had in mind as "backing off".

But Reynolds still wanted to retire. In 1946, as soon as the war was over and it was possible, Foster and Harper sold their interest in the company to Scherl & Roth. Most of what we see under the Reynolds name, made after 1946, is not related to FA Reynolds.

Shortly thereafter however Chicago Musical Instruments lured Reynolds out of retirement to help restructure FE Olds. There in 1949, with Harper making the required additional tooling on a lathe that still exists in the custody of a member of the extended FE Olds Corporate family's care, he launched the Ambassador line.

At Olds, Reynold took on an apprentice, Zigmant Kanstul - probably hoping to hand over the reigns one day and finally get some R&R. Zig was there when FA died of a massive heart attack in 1960 on the shop floor at Fullerton. It should come as no surprise that like the mentor he looked up to the rest of his days, Zig too died at his plant.

OK, here are a few Conns from my collection:

Conn Solo Wonder (1880s)

A Couple Conn Perfected Wonders (originated 1906)

1908 Conn Conqueror

1909 Conn Wonderphone

1910 Conn symphony Trumpet

1918 Conn Military Trumpet

1920s Conn American Legion Bugle

1922 Conn 5B

1924 Conn 22B New York Symphony

1926 Con 26B

1928 Conn Cavalier

1928 Conn 24B Opera

1932 Conn 10B New Era

1937 Conn 2B New World Symphony

1937 Conn 48B Vocabell

1952 Conn 22B

1954 Conn 28B Connstellation

1957 Conn 38B Connstellation

1972 Conn severinsen

Though I am really more of a King and Holton collector

Wow, if remarkably benign, typical, and non-controversial threads need to be locked as a routine practice, that's a sad commentary on this forum.

Doesn't have to be the whole horn, does it?

Today the term “student instrument” is often associated with trumpet shaped objects that have terrible playing characteristics, but more-over tend to fall apart in your hands and cannot be repaired – if not because of the complete lack of any parts, then because the labor costs more than the horn.

That is not what the term meant in the 20th century when the student market was first acknowledged with White’s “King Junior” and “Student Prince”, and around the same time with companies and lines such as York’s Grand Rapids Band Instrument Co., Holton’s Collegiate brand, Martin’s Indiana Band Instrument Co., etc. The first was the “King Junior”, and what the catalog said about the renaming of that particular lower cost, and at that time already 8-year-old model, was “This is a ‘Long Model’ Cornet especially built to fit the needs of beginners who want to learn on a high grade, quality instrument that is not too high in price. The Junior Cornet is identical in quality workmanship with every other ‘King’, the lower price is made possible by simplicity in the engraving and trimmings. The instrument is not elaborately designed with respect to ferrules, etc. It is neatly and plainly finished. Great attention has been given to the proportions, valve action, etc., so that the instrument is exceptionally easy playing. The intonation is the same as all other ‘King’ cornets. It is a fine sensible model that will allow the beginner to make rapid progress.”

Some of the claims are a stretch, such as the ferrules that were actually more elaborate and expensive to make than normal King ones so that they matched the aesthetic used by White’s mentor McMillin for his Crown brand (White obviously sold these to McMillin for stencil too), and in my opinion, the intonation is not as reliable as on a King Improved Long Model – but I will admit it may be better than that of a King Perfecto. Nonetheless, the concept of “Student Instrument” is clearly laid out in this first of its kind acknowledgement of the market.

The best example of the differing tiers of instruments can be found in Leblanc’s system for Holton after 1965:
T-100 series of models: Professional level. Excellent tone, response and projection, but requires some skill to control effectively.
T-200 series of models: Professional level, but adapted to the unique playing characteristics favored by an artist.
T-300 series of models: Advanced Intermediate level. More secure centering thus less ease of bending and matching, excellent projection, very responsive, less color to the tonal spectrum - often specializing in a particular sound or genre.
T-400 series of models: Intermediate level. More secure centering thus less ease of bending and matching, excellent projection, not as easy responding as higher levels, less breadth of color to the tonal spectrum.
T-500 series of models: Step-up student level. Secure centering, not as easy to project, higher resistance and inertia, mostly core tone – often artist-linked for promotion (but not played by).
T-600 series of models: Student/Beginner level. Secure centering, not as easy to project, higher resistance and inertia, mostly core tone and built like a tank to take abuse and still keep working.

Wow, just think what we might discover, or at least share, if that much typing were expended on topics related to the instrument itself, advances in design, fabrication or materials, new repertoire, innovative approaches to unique situations with students . . . . .

@administrator said in Vinzenz Schrottenbach:

@OldSchoolEuph said in Vinzenz Schrottenbach:

@Dale-Proctor Yes, but the US entry into the war, generally thought to have been heavily influenced by a political marketing campaign highlighting the Lusitania, was not until April 1917. The ship was struck near shore by a single torpedo intended to cripple it. The massive loss of life was a result of loose coal dust not being properly cleaned-up in the bunkers which after being thrown into the air by the shock wave, detonated. This was used by American hawks to cast the German/Austrian side in a very negative light - quite effectively as we see by the actions of 1917.

[TANGENT]
The Germans had declared unrestricted submarine warfare against the USA at that point in time. The modern narrative is to frame the nation's entry into the war as a political move, something with which I have come to disagree. There are lots of fantastic lectures about the subject available on YouTube.

It is a very complex matter - though I would contend that political actions (such as governance itself) are inherently political.

The US at that time was deeply divided on many fronts - Bach's own Austro-Hungarian Empire was not much different. The world was debating extremes of capitalist and socialist concepts, moderates often finding no room just as today, driven by the socio-cultural impact of the industrial revolution. Rural populations were migrating to urban centers, which were expanding rapidly in an uncontrolled manner and the "wholesome" way of life of past generations was beset with all of the chaos, crime, congestion, and new social dynamics of that transition. In the US, the Jeffersonian concept of America (agrarian-subsistence, village-based, pacifist and isolationist society) had collided head-on with industrial reality when the US defeated one of the Great Powers (Spain) by blowing one of the world's top 3 navies out of the water while only sustaining a single casualty to a heart attack on the US side in a matter of hours (Manila Bay) in 1898. That event shook not just Jeffersonian America, but all of Europe - which suddenly had a new threat to contend with. It is a major driver behind why Bach had to serve a second tour on his military service, which had not been typical since the Franco-Prussian war ended. (WWI was his 3rd tour of military service - just on a different side).

It is worth mentioning here that the transformation of the American self-image from a Jeffersonian one to a world power also factors significantly in the emergence of the uniquely American long cornet at this time. I have written about this before, so I'll just some it up as "a bigger more powerful horn (and star voice of popular music, thus embodiment of the national cultural image) for a bigger more powerful nation".

The clash between urban and rural, industrial and agrarian, globalist and Jeffersonian manifested not just in the emergence of labor unions that altered forever how instruments are made (and the standard of living of an entire socio-economic strata), but in a clash between imperialist hawks and a strong neo-Jeffersonian isolationist/pacifist movement. The demographics of this clash were weighted significantly (though far from exclusively) male on the hawk side and female on the isolationist. As women could not vote at that time, the true conflict of desires in the country was not always evident in its political realities. This disenfranchisement and disconnect gave fuel to so-called "women's issues" like suffrage, temperance and the disastrous prohibition experiment in the US, and following WWI (which had women been able to vote the US likely would never have entered), an even stronger pacifist/isolationist movement that hamstrung Roosevelt's efforts to aid Britain and prepare the US military for the inevitable.

Bach's experiences in the middle of this must have been remarkable - seeing the same social dynamics playing out on opposite sides of the conflict, coping with the ultimately inescapable nature of it for him personally, and so on. One must wonder what impact on his approach to life that "no escape" experience may have had - certainly it probably emboldened him to persevere against terrible business odds during the depression - and probably helped foster his "whatever it takes" attitudes.

[Super-tangent] Actually, the Germanic nations had declared unrestricted warfare against shipping servicing/supplying the allied powers. Any nation, not just the US, was targeted thusly if it continued to engage in commerce with those powers. That view of "against the USA" is just another reflection of the globalist (inherently self-important) view that arose in the US in urban opposition to Jeffersonian ideals.

OK, here's one of those content threads we have been talking about. Here are 4 company timelines. Expand, correct, add more companies. Let's add some core content.

Besson
1838: AG Besson builds his first Perinet valve cornet in France

1858: AG Besson loses a lawsuit and relocates to England. His wife restarts the firm, continuing the same serial numbers

1867: (or before) The French firm introduces a new concept of a pitch change slide at the last bend of the lead pipe

1880: (or possibly very shortly before) The French firm introduces the first modern wrap valve trumpet, pretty much what people call a Brevete model (though that is not a model name)

1890: The French firm changes names to Fontaine-Besson as a result of a marriage in the family

1894: The English firm is sold out of the Besson family

1914: Austrian deserter Vincent Bach lands a job as assistant principle trumpet in Boston using a Besson cornet. He is promptly provided Gustav Heim’s spare 1914 LP New Holton Trumpet demonstrator.

1930: Elden Benge begins building modified Bessons and then his own horns in the same style, he continues evolving this school of design with the help of Schilke, Autrey and Busch through the end of his life.

1931: Francois Millereau, a former Besson employee, sells his trumpet making business to Henri Selmer.

1932: Fontaine-Besson is acquired by Strasser Margaux & Lemaire

1948: Besson (the English firm) is acquired by Boosey & Hawkes

1957: An insolvent SML sells Fontaine-Besson to Couesnon

1969: An arson fire reduces the Couesnon plant to a pile of broken block and twisted steel. All Besson records and tooling there are lost. (This is the end of direct production of F.Besson horns)

1980: Donald Benge teams with Zig Kanstul and Byron Autrey to develop Benge style (French Besson style) trumpets for stencil under the Burbank name and also after 1981, the Kanstul name.

1981: Buffet is acquired by Boosey & Hawkes

1986: Boosey & Hawkes is acquired by Carl Fischer

2001: Carl Fischer’s extensive conglomerate of instrument makers shut down names including B&H. Besson continues.

2003: The Music Group, a venture capital entity, restructures the Carl Fischer companies. Besson designs and tooling were deliberately destroyed and the name moved to a new line of instruments built in India and other locations.

2006: The Music Group becomes insolvent. The Meinl family and Triumph Adler, which already owned B^S and other post-collective East block firms, acquires most of the brands including Buffet and Besson. The resultant Buffet-Crampon company controlled those plus Courtois and York. Besson production returned to Europe at Markneukirchen shortly thereafter.

2019: The tooling and records of the Kanstul company convey the Benge/F.Besson Legacy to BAC Musical Instruments. Autrey’s personal Benge and Kanstul horns, design notes, tools, etc. also transfer from his estate to BAC.

2020: BAC acquires the Benge trademark and begins building the culmination of the work of Besson, Benge, Schilke, Autrey and Kanstul with regard to classic Besson design. Modern Besson designs by Buffet continue, but with no design linkage to any prior Besson instruments

Distin-Keefer
1849: Henry Distin started making instruments in England while still part of his family ensemble that toured performing on Saxhorns.
1868: Distin workshop sold to music publisher Boosey & Co. which continued the serial numbers at the same address.
1876: After a couple years of blowing all his money on failed concert promotions and making a living playing and tending bar, Distin moved to the US to superintend at the "monster" Martin Pollman & Co. works in NYC. (This allowed partner JH Martin 2 years to go work at CG Conn and learn about modern instruments)
1878: Distin started making the same designs he had made in England in partnership with FW Busch in New York.
1880: Distin partnered with former Martin & Co. joint venture partner Moses Slater in New York.
1882: Distin moved to Pennsylvania and started Distin & Pincus, a publisher. Slater continued building the same horns under his own name without Distin.
1884: Henry Distin Manufacturing established in Philadelphia to make horns for JW Pepper.
1889: Distin Manufacturing moved to Williamsport
1890: Distin Manufacturing sold to shop superintendent, Brua C. Keefer.
1909: Name changed to Brua C. Keefer Company.
1960: A grass fire alongside the plant spread to the building. The company never reopened.

Frank Holton & Co.
1885: Sousa Band trombonist Frank Holton partnered with JW York, a former apprentice to Louis Hartman and Henry Esbach in the Keat/Graves/Wright tradition at Boston.
1887: York and Holton ceases operations, though was not closed out for many years.
1896: Holton starts a mail-order business selling his “Electric Oil” slide oil for trombones. It does not make money in its first 3 years
1898: Holton opens a small Chicago walk-up store selling instrumental supplies and used band instruments. A few cornets were assembled at the repair bench from a mix of purchased and fabricated parts.
1904: Holton relocated to an entire floor of 107 W. Madison in Chicago for more manufacturing space.
1906: The first half of the Holton factory on Gladys street was constructed. Virtuoso Earnst Couturier joins the firm as a promoter, road man, and possibly designer.
1911: The second half and adjacent shipping/receiving building opened. The New Holton Trumpet debuts as the first serious American orchestral trumpet.
1913: Couturier leaves Holton for a brief partnership with JW York to build the Wizard cornet.
1914: Gustav Heim handed his new assistant at Boston a 1914 New Holton Trumpet demonstrator, as the Austrian deserter had no trumpet of his own. This encouraged Vincent Bach to become a Holton artist.
1916: Couturier buys the William Seidel Band Instrument Company, renames it for himself, and starts building a line of pure conical bore instruments – even trombones. He moves it To LaPorte in 1918
1918: Over a weekend in October, all tooling was relocated to a new facility in Elkhorn Wisconsin, provided free of charge when the firm met a local payroll target – actually ahead of the deadline
1918-19: Holton built a neighborhood of houses to recruit key employees. His home anchored the end of the street, the other end of which ended at the door of the municipal building downtown.
1921: The Holton Revelation Trumpet, in production since December of 1919, was announced formally.
1923: Couturier loses his eyesight, and shortly thereafter his company to Lyon & Healy.
1924: 14 year old “child prodigy” Renold Schilke begins performing with the Holton-Elkhorn band, and apprenticing in brassmaking and gunsmithing at the factory.
1927: Schilke, his teacher Edward Llewellyn, and the Holton design team develop the Llewellyn model variant of the Holton Revelation. Elements of this design would influence the Martin Committee.
1928: Holton buys the defunct former Couturier shop for Lyon & Healy and establishes the Collegiate brand.
1929: The same team develops the first light-weight, very large bore, minimally braced, reversed construction trumpet with Kansas trumpeter and professor, Don Berry.
1932: After an unsuccessful rebranding as “Ideal”, Holton closes the LaPorte facility and moves production of Collegiate instruments to the Elkhorn plant.
1938: Frank Holton sells the company to long time employee Frank Kull.
1944: Frank Kull dies and is succeeded by his son Grover.
1957: Holton begins buying parts and complete built-to-spec horns from Courtois. French valves become commonplace on Holton horns – though not all models.
1965: Leblanc completes a 3-year acquisition of Holton – and promptly goes through 2 new model numbering schemes.
1971: Holton, as part of a wide range of artist-linked models, begins a line of 10 trumpets designed at an intermediate level for young fans of Maynard Fergusson. They become best-sellers.
1981: The Martin design team, by then another arm of Leblanc and charged with all R&D, copies an Elkhart Bach 37, selected at a local store, creating the specifications for the Holton T-101s
2004: Steinway Musical Instruments’ Conn-Selmer division acquires Leblanc
2007: Conn-Selmer halts production at Elkhorn, moving Holton French horns to Eastlake Ohio and merging the Holton brand with King and others on Eastlake low brass.

Vincent Bach Corporation
1914: While touring in Britain, cornet artist and Austrian Navy veteran Vincent Schrottenbach learns of the onset of World War One. A soldier behind enemy lines, he quickly books passage on a ship to the US under the name Vincent Bach to elude capture. There he performs with the Boston Symphony for a season, tours the West Coast in 1915, and settles in playing with the Met. He is drafted and becomes a bugle instructor for the US Army in 1918.
1918: Bach sets up a small mouthpiece making shop in the back of the New York Selmer store – probably the smartest move George Bundy made on behalf of his then employer.
1922: Bach incorporates.
1924: Bach begins experimenting in trumpet making, drawing on both the commonplace Besson of the time, and his Holtons.
1925: Bach makes his 45th horn for his new wife’s father, bandmaster Adam Staab (it was his second marriage)
1928: Bach moves out of a small storefront shop and into an actual factory building in the Bronx around serial number 1000.
1953: With an additional 10,000 serial numbers consumed, Bach relocates to a factory in Mt. Vernon New York.
1962: Bach sells the company to his one-time patron, the Selmer company, despite higher offers, and designs both a revised Stradivarius trumpet (the 180) and a new Bundy trumpet for them.
1963: In November, construction of 180s begins at Mt. Vernon while the former Buescher plant on Main Street in Elkhart is readied to relocate Bach to, as the rent charged by the Bach family on Mt. Vernon was considerable.
1965: Selmer moves Bach operations to Main Street in Elkhart.
1974: Selmer moves Bach operations, over time, to the facility on Industrial Drive in Elkhart. Two-piece casings and steel rim wires in 180s phase out over the next few years ending the “Early Elkhart” period.
2004: Steinway Musical Properties acquires Selmer, and with it Bach.
2010: The Bach “Artisan” 190 series trumpets are introduced, featuring a French bead and Early-Elkhart elements such as two piece casings. The non-Artisan “regular” 190s additionally feature steel rim wires.

It amazes me how much of this thread seems to equate energy required to produce a given dynamic with "takes more air". Seems like just another discussion of "resistance" in many respects.

When it come to actual fluid flow, there are two factors. For the equipment, the mouthpiece throat determines flow at a given pressure. The bore simply cannot be relevant because it is not the venturi. The other point at which flow can differ is the embouchure, with some folks needing more flow through to vibrate as greater energy into the horn is required to produce the desired result. At some point, these will come into conflict if the player is too inefficient in their part, and the pressure in the cup will exceed what the orifice at its base can flow, resulting in leaks around the edge.

But when a horn "takes more air", it is because we opt to increase the embouchure flow rate as a means of stepping up energy input to the horn, not because of some vacuum to fill with a 0.003" larger diameter tube. (Bach ML to L)

@chelpres said in Mid 20's Holton mouthpieces:

@tptguy Received wisdom is that the Holton Heim 2 M.P would be suitable. I bought one for just that purpose, for use in my 1927 New Revelation. My friend has a similar period Llewellen and the Heim came as standard.
FWIT'sW, I have found the best fit is with a period VEGA M.P. However first find your VEGA!
I would imagine a skilled tech would be able to determine M.P receiver dimensions and machine down a contemporary M.P to match. I had this done, but used the VEGA as a template.
I would imagine some of the more enlightened Holton specialists in vintage land will be able to expand on all this.

You cannot mill down a modern shank to the old Holton taper. It was faster, so you would need to add metal as you move up, and if you try to cut in at that slope, you'll just cut off a lot of the shank.

whatever you did, login just worked

OK, so somehow I am still logged in on this machine, using Chrome only - IE no. I just attempted a password reset through IE on another machine - got as far as entering, confirming and pressing the Reset Password bar - nothing. Copied the URL to Chrome, entered all 3 fields, clicked the bar, it said changing password and went to a login screen - Invalid login credentials.

This problem has been going on forever. Can it be fixed?

@stumac said in Chemical Cleaning:

acids he could not tell me the concentration, just added to water till he thought it was enough. Regards, Stuart.

Basic rule: the more anything can do for you, the more it can do to you. Chem and ultrasonic cleanings should be used sparingly, and only when there is no choice. The skill and experience of the person doing the cleaning makes all the difference between minimal impact and an improvement over where you were, and doing irreversible damage.

@flugelgirl said in Differences between grades of instruments:

I really don’t think vintage horns had a higher quality level for intermediate vs. pro - some of those were still no more than fancier plating. A Martin Committee in perfect condition will not make you sound like one of the greats if you are a marginal player,

No horn will make you sound like one of the greats if you are not - but an Oswal or an Aere might make one of the greats sound like a beginner!

I can't accept the idea that there is no difference between a Yamaha 4335 or 5335 (both fine intermediate horns) and an 8335 - I've played them. There is a big difference.

The same follows for equating a 1961 Holton Galaxy to the same year's 51LB or Stratodyne. There is a huge difference in playing characteristics even though the Galaxy was an amazing horn for the price.

This gets even more pronounced if you compare a Schilke MII to a B or S series horn.

All of these intermediate examples are good horns in many respects, and a skilled player will sound great on them. But that skilled player can sound great on a pro horn with less effort.

And, all of these intermediate examples still also differentiate from student horns markedly.

The lower ring is clearly not an OEM part with its nickel finish. The half-reversed slide is clear, and has a Bach stop rod assembly on it, which precludes an aftermarket adjustable ring. It does not appear to be a trigger because it is back against the valves with the slide in. Unfortunately, in the pictures of him playing, he does not appear to use it. I am not even sure how it is attached to the horn.

@rowuk
Our experience and perception relative to true Mt. Vernon, Mt. Vernon 180, and Early Elkhart Bachs is vastly different. I am not used to hearing people knock those. As for the earlier modern Elkhart 180s, I know pros who started on randomly picked stock 180S37s in high school around 1979/80 and, though they can play anything they want today, still have that high school horn in their arsenal - one rather prominent player as backup to his primary Bb, a modern 37 (though he admittedly has to spend most of his time on a 229).

That being said, the best way to pick a Bach is to play a lot of them. Bachs are not consistent in the finer details with the intent of having a variety of horns to fit a variety of players. Many will not be a perfect fit for you, a few will. Its not a quality problem, its a quality choice - to have product as diverse as those who play them. What works for you may suck for me and vice versa. (though really, people like to exaggerate - "suck" is just an egotistical statement based on believing we are that much better than everyone else)

@newell-post Actually with the Bach Bb Strad, just the 180s, there are 3 forms of construction (180, LT180, LR180), and a mix of bells and leadpipes depending on which of those 3 you pick, that add up to 1470 options for construction, bell, bore, alloy, bell weight, and leadpipe. Then there are 2 tuning slide geometries, so 2940. Then there are 4 options for throws (triggers or rings on 1st & 3rd), which brings us to 11,760 configurations. Add in the option of a spit key on third and the 6 finish options, and you get 141,120 different configurations before taking into account the myriad of engraving options. (and those numbers predate the new option of a 72 bell with a French bead, so its actually more now)

Today the term “student instrument” is often associated with trumpet shaped objects that have terrible playing characteristics, but more-over tend to fall apart in your hands and cannot be repaired – if not because of the complete lack of any parts, then because the labor costs more than the horn.

That is not what the term meant in the 20th century when the student market was first acknowledged with White’s “King Junior” and “Student Prince”, and around the same time with companies and lines such as York’s Grand Rapids Band Instrument Co., Holton’s Collegiate brand, Martin’s Indiana Band Instrument Co., etc. The first was the “King Junior”, and what the catalog said about the renaming of that particular lower cost, and at that time already 8-year-old model, was “This is a ‘Long Model’ Cornet especially built to fit the needs of beginners who want to learn on a high grade, quality instrument that is not too high in price. The Junior Cornet is identical in quality workmanship with every other ‘King’, the lower price is made possible by simplicity in the engraving and trimmings. The instrument is not elaborately designed with respect to ferrules, etc. It is neatly and plainly finished. Great attention has been given to the proportions, valve action, etc., so that the instrument is exceptionally easy playing. The intonation is the same as all other ‘King’ cornets. It is a fine sensible model that will allow the beginner to make rapid progress.”

Some of the claims are a stretch, such as the ferrules that were actually more elaborate and expensive to make than normal King ones so that they matched the aesthetic used by White’s mentor McMillin for his Crown brand (White obviously sold these to McMillin for stencil too), and in my opinion, the intonation is not as reliable as on a King Improved Long Model – but I will admit it may be better than that of a King Perfecto. Nonetheless, the concept of “Student Instrument” is clearly laid out in this first of its kind acknowledgement of the market.

The best example of the differing tiers of instruments can be found in Leblanc’s system for Holton after 1965:
T-100 series of models: Professional level. Excellent tone, response and projection, but requires some skill to control effectively.
T-200 series of models: Professional level, but adapted to the unique playing characteristics favored by an artist.
T-300 series of models: Advanced Intermediate level. More secure centering thus less ease of bending and matching, excellent projection, very responsive, less color to the tonal spectrum - often specializing in a particular sound or genre.
T-400 series of models: Intermediate level. More secure centering thus less ease of bending and matching, excellent projection, not as easy responding as higher levels, less breadth of color to the tonal spectrum.
T-500 series of models: Step-up student level. Secure centering, not as easy to project, higher resistance and inertia, mostly core tone – often artist-linked for promotion (but not played by).
T-600 series of models: Student/Beginner level. Secure centering, not as easy to project, higher resistance and inertia, mostly core tone and built like a tank to take abuse and still keep working.

Definitely do not donate this horn. This is not a disposable instrument for some beginner to trash.

Most variants of k-mods sell for between $500 and $1,000 depending on condition and features. The condition of yours puts it at about $900 in my opinion - so long as the valves are still reasonably tight (and the lack of use suggests they would be).

"K-modified" is believed to be a reference to the design engineer at Selmer in the mid-century who came up with these changes, Keith Ecker. Ecker moved over to Holton when Leblanc purchased them in 1965 and headed-up the custom shop there.