Olds Recording 1951 era plays flat.

Mike Ansberry

I've been a repair tech, full or part time, for over 40 years. But this one has me stumped. I have a 1951 Olds Recording. It is a wonderful horn. I am going to have to send my Super Recording to Dr. Valve for a valve job, so the 51 has become my gig axe. But I am finding that I have to push up on the pitch even with the tuning slide all the way in. There does not seem to be anything strange about the mouthpiece gap. I don't have any problem playing in tune with my other horns. So I have had to resort to playing my 1970's Super or my 1933 Conn 40b for my main axe. But the 51 plays so much better in every way but the intonation.

Ideas?

Dale Proctor

@mike-ansberry

I had an Ambassador that was hopelessly flat for some reason, and I finally resorted to shortening the tuning slide receivers and the slide legs about 1/4” so I could push in a bit more. I would have gone a bit shorter than that, but a brace pad was in the way. I don’t know if I’d do that to a Recording, though...

J. Jericho

@mike-ansberry Did it ever play in tune, or is this a new development?

Mike Ansberry

@j-jericho said in Olds Recording 1951 era plays flat.:

@mike-ansberry Did it ever play in tune, or is this a new development?

I never played it as my main horn on a gig. It was just a fun horn that I bought from a friend. I don't have (anything close to) perfect pitch. I played it with some Jamey Aebersold stuff at home. But now that I am back to gigging, playing it in groups and having to hold the pitch up is cutting into my endurance.

@dale-proctor said in Olds Recording 1951 era plays flat.:

@mike-ansberry

I had an Ambassador that was hopelessly flat for some reason, and I finally resorted to shortening the tuning slide receivers and the slide legs about 1/4” so I could push in a bit more. I would have gone a bit shorter than that, but a brace pad was in the way. I don’t know if I’d do that to a Recording, though...

I have an Eclipse MR in gold plate. I had trouble with it playing flat. I talked to Leigh about it. He suggested I cut of a specific amount from the lead pipe where it attaches to the valve block. I did that and it solved the problem.

I don't have this problem on any of my other horns. I really hate to cut this 51 recording.

stumac

@mike-ansberry Can you check the slide lengths against another?, perhaps it was a special built in low pitch A=439.

I would have no hesitation in cutting to bring up to pitch.

The strangest one I have had was a Chinese C trumpet, the open notes were fine, any valved notes flat, turned out to have a Bb valve block and slides.

If it is of any help I can measure my 55 Recording when I get back home at the weekend.

Regards, Stuart.

Dr GO

@stumac said in Olds Recording 1951 era plays flat.:

@mike-ansberry Can you check the slide lengths against another?, perhaps it was a special built in low pitch A=439.

If it is of any help I can measure my 55 Recording when I get back home at the weekend.

Regards, Stuart.

I have a '53 Recording. I am at work now but will measure it's lead pipe when I get home. I have played that horn only in church with a church organ, but never at a gig. Come to think of it, I had to play against the church organ with the slide all the way in.

I also have a '67 Recording that use to be my standard gig horn with no tuning issues, so will compare the lead pipes on both the LA and Fullerton model and get back with you.

TrumpetLearner

I have no idea about this, and only looked at this thread, because I am interested in hunting out an Olds Recording at some point.

With little experience of trumpets, I can only think of the basics. So, we know that if the instrument is flat, there must be too much pipe. Some have suggested that the lead pipe could be too long, but how about one of the slides? Could the tuning slide be the wrong one for this model? I can't imagine that it would have left the factory playing flat. But I suppose the idea of the wrong length lead pipe comes from it having had a new lead pipe fitted at some point right? Is there any evidence of that? New welding for example? I suppose it's possible for a good tech to have fitted a new lead pipe without there being any evidence of the weld. But to my mind, it would be easier to have had someone switch the tuning slides at some point, either by accident, or to replace a damaged slide with one that was cheaper or easier to get.

EDIT: On my 1966 Silver Flair, I noticed that the valves, and even the tuning slide have serial numbers stamped on them, to match the serial on the outer valve housing. Is this something that can be checked? Was it common to have these markings on trumpets of that era?

EDIT: Actually, it's only the 3rd valve slide that has the numbers stamped on mine, not the tuning slide.......interesting.

J. Jericho

@mike-ansberry How close does the tuning slides come to bottoming out in the outer slides when the tuning slide is pushed all the way in? To put it another way, how much longer are the inside lengths of the outer slides, compared to the lengths of the inner slide legs of the tuning slide itself? What is the mouthpiece gap? Does the mouthpiece receiver have the correct taper? Does the horn play a different pitch with a different mouthpiece? It seems like a little adjustment in the right places should resolve the issue.

Is it possible that the trumpet got assembled with a longer bell stem? Could the bell stem not have been pushed all the way into the ferrule at the factory? They used to certify that the horn would play in tune with the tuning slide out a certain amount at a certain ambient temperature (5/8" at 70° F?), so I would think that this type of situation could be discovered.

Mike Ansberry

@trumpetlearner said in Olds Recording 1951 era plays flat.:

I have no idea about this, and only looked at this thread, because I am interested in hunting out an Olds Recording at some point.

With little experience of trumpets, I can only think of the basics. So, we know that if the instrument is flat, there must be too much pipe. Some have suggested that the lead pipe could be too long, but how about one of the slides? Could the tuning slide be the wrong one for this model? I can't imagine that it would have left the factory playing flat. But I suppose the idea of the wrong length lead pipe comes from it having had a new lead pipe fitted at some point right? Is there any evidence of that? New welding for example? I suppose it's possible for a good tech to have fitted a new lead pipe without there being any evidence of the weld. But to my mind, it would be easier to have had someone switch the tuning slides at some point, either by accident, or to replace a damaged slide with one that was cheaper or easier to get.

EDIT: On my 1966 Silver Flair, I noticed that the valves, and even the tuning slide have serial numbers stamped on them, to match the serial on the outer valve housing. Is this something that can be checked? Was it common to have these markings on trumpets of that era?

EDIT: Actually, it's only the 3rd valve slide that has the numbers stamped on mine, not the tuning slide.......interesting.

The upper tube on the tuning slide is the same length as the outer slide. It bottoms out exactly on the mouthpipe when fully inserted. The lower tuning slide tube is shorter than the outer tube attached to the valve section. So there is a gap there.

But as near as I can tell, the slides, mouthpipe, receiver, valves, and bell section are the same size as my Super Recording. I once heard Arthur Benade give a lecture at the ITG in the middle 1970s. He demonstrated how the smallest difference, placed at exactly the right spot, can drastically change an instrument's tuning. I wonder if there is a small dent or imperfection in just the right place.

It is a shame. The horn plays beautifully. It is the only horn that comes close to playing as well as my Super Recording.

J. Jericho

@mike-ansberry said in Olds Recording 1951 era plays flat.:
The lower tuning slide tube is shorter than the outer tube attached to the valve section. So there is a gap there.

Can you cut a piece of tubing to slide into the gap and see if this makes a difference, or is intonation strictly a matter of length, rather than volume? Occasionally I've noticed that when a using deeper mouthpiece I've had to move the tuning slide in slightly to compensate. I didn't notice whether the length of the mouthpiece was different than the shallower one, though, and I didn't measure mouthpiece gap at the time, either.

J. Jericho

@mike-ansberry I just had another thought: the tuning slide on my Special has a longer lower tube. If you had access to a Special, you could try its tuning slide in your Recording if the slide width is the same. I think an Ambassador slide fits my Studio, or maybe it was a Super, so there is the possibility of some interchangeability among Olds trumpets.

Dr GO

Son of a B'! The LA recording leadpipe measures in at 13.125 inches, and the Fullerton Recording at exactly 13.000 inches. So the LA leadpipe is aa eighth of an inch longer than the Fullerton, which may explain why it plays flat in both your hands and my hands. I mean, it couldn't be the hands being that we are both sharp lads!

J. Jericho

@dr-go Uhhhh... I hate to break this to you, but it takes eight .125" measurements to make an inch, not four. Nevertheless, a 1/8" difference can be a part of this puzzle.

ROWUK

The safest place to cut a trumpet is where the bell enters the valve block. Cutting it at the tuning slide can make for some wacky intonation.

M. V.

@dr-go said in Olds Recording 1951 era plays flat.:

Son of a B'! The LA recording leadpipe measures in at 13.125 inches, and the Fullerton Recording at exactly 13.000 inches. So the LA leadpipe is aa eighth of an inch longer than the Fullerton, which may explain why it plays flat in both your hands and my hands. I mean, it couldn't be the hands being that we are both sharp lads!

So does mine, but luckily enough we always play at 440hz over here, so there is no problem;)

Trumpetsplus

Make sure it is a Recording main slide, not an Ambassador. From memory (and I don't see a lot of these) the Ambassador had a particularly long main slide crook and ferrules. An Ambassador main slide in a Recording would certainly lower the o=pitch. The Recording has a brace on the slide, but if a tech had done a replacement they may have installed a brace on an Ambassador slide.

Just thinking. Sorry for your problem.

Trumpetsplus

Also, for the record, the Olds Super Recording was not a souped up Recording, it was a souped up Super

Olds Super (Recording), not Olds SUPER Recording.

J. Jericho

@trumpetsplus The water key on the Ambassador is unique to the model. It has a straight lever centered under the slide, whereas the Recording slide has the trombone water key with the nipple offset from center that you see on most Olds trumpets and cornets. This is not to say that an Ambassador tuning slide wasn't adapted to this horn; stranger things have happened, and I'm not sure whether the slide widths are the same between the two.

Mike Ansberry

A little while back someone over at TH suggested that my tongue placement was causing the problem. Of course an argument ensued over the effect or lack of effect the tongue has on pitch.

I played with several of my various trumpets and drones and a tuner. I found that I was actually having the same problem on my other trumpets. I paid attention to what was going on with my tongue, and I found that over time I had developed a habit of not keeping my tongue as far forward in my mouth as I had in the past. I began concentrating on keeping the tongue forward and my problem was solved.

I really don't care about the physics involved. I am just glad I am able to keep the pitch up without working my butt off again.

Dr GO

@mike-ansberry said in Olds Recording 1951 era plays flat.:

I really don't care about the physics involved. I am just glad I am able to keep the pitch up without working my butt off again.

Not really physics but anatomy. The tongue is on the top end, the butt on the bottom end... he said, tongue in cheek...