Posts made by ROWUK

Brass instruments adhere to standard characteristics of physical laws. If we look at the series of partials (the notes that we can play without changing the valve pressed), they each represent a resonance mathematically related to the fundamental. Pedal C is the fundemental, low C at double the frequency, 2nd line G at 3x the fundamental frequency, 3rd space c at 4 times the fundamental...

In addition, based on the construction of the horn we have a "quality" of resonance (in physics called "Q") that determines how easy or hard it is to bend the note. If the Q is high, we have to exert a lot of energy to bend a note. If the Q is low, our chops have to provide the stability. Anyone that has been forced to use alternate fingerings on a Bach C trumpet, has firsthand experience about the Q of the 4th space E, Eb and 4th line D being too strong. The horn "wants" to play those notes very flat. Many trumpets also have a top of the staff G too high in pitch and a high C too low. That forces us to compensate with body tension - something that hurts our overall playing and sound.

Slotting is NOT the Q, at least not directly. Because we need to hear ourselves to tune, there is a perceived pitch and resonance that we call "slotting". The artisan building the trumpet must optimize the "targets" that we play, allowing moderate bending of pitch but a sense of security at the same time.

The resonance pattern of the trumpet also determines its tone in the various registers. Our brain reacts to a thinner sound of equal pitch with the sense that it actually is going sharp - we compensate by forcing the pitch lower - even although it is wrong. The opposite happens when the sound gets thicker - we force the pitch up.

My whole point is that "slotting" as a concept is flawed. We have to break down what affects pitch, tone and security. Players that "brag" about the "slotting" of their horns, generally play out of tune...

Now to confuse the rest, the "Q" of a trumpet is based more or less on bell flare shape (slotting is additionally affected by the mouthpiece, bracing and thickness/hardness of the bell). Standard horns are most efficient between low C and 2nd ledger line C above the staff. Above and below that, the Q goes down very quickly. Because Q is resonance, we have to work harder above the staff because the trumpet helps us less. A larger bell like on the higher Monette models, extends efficiency to lower notes. There is a cost of business however...

This thread will show the "foolishness" of putting "slotting" high on the list of trumpet priorities. We need flexibility to play in tune.

There is a "bible" on intonation written by Chris Leuba - a former horn player with the Chicago Symphony. I am not sure if it is still in print, but it is certainly worth having.

https://www.hornguys.com/products/a-study-of-musical-intonation-by-christopher-leuba-pub-cherry

Great link! Thanks!

1. It is really tough to get the human lips vibrating at a useful frequency without air...
2. Yes, we can excite a standing wave in a trumpet with a speaker or piezoelectric device without "blowing air"
3. An efficient embouchure needs LESS blowing than an inefficient one
4. That efficient embouchure created an optimal relationship between muscle tension around the lips and the pressure (not speed) of the air that we blow.
5. The nature of the original question is conducive to a lot of useless posting/arguing semantics
6. the best players have the best control of their air, body use and embouchure tension.

@Kehaulani said in Playing risks in Covid-time:

@Dr-GO said in Playing risks in Covid-time:

@Kehaulani said in Playing risks in Covid-time:

"The government", in this case, are the highly experienced, infectious disease medical experts the President, himself, selected.

I don't think the President selected Fauci. I believe he was already in the position as the Director of the National Science Foundation Allergy and Infections Disease Division. The President can only elect to listen or not to listen to Dr. Fauci's advice.

Doesn't Fauci "serve at the pleasure of the President"?

No, he does what is right...

@djeffers78 No, the lockdown is in the meantime the result of stupid behaviour. There is no doubt about what transmits the disease. The government only makes choices to protect as many as possible. Just following the news should show you what happens when the availability of hospital beds and respirators get short - people die.
What bothers me is that America went crazy when 3000 people died on 09-11 , but 250000 with covid in a short time should just be a risk that we should accept. What hurts more is that many of these people claim to be Christians - so much for loving your neighbor as yourself.

The whole argument is selfish. Unfortunately, that seems to be the only game these days.

@djeffers78 you will have to be a bit more specific about what you do not understand. There is no debate about Covid being transmitted by contact of droplets and aerosols. There are enough professional studies performed where actual orchestral players and their instruments were tested. A lot of these things have made a careful opening of concert venues possible in Germany.

If for no other reason than the constant reminder that a virus NEVER sleeps makes this bell cover interesting. The study presented in the link is compelling and similar to one conducted with the Bamberg Symphonic a couple of weeks ago.

We should not forget that it is not Covid that causes lockdowns. It is the Covidiots that think that they are immune and just end up getting thousands infected. America is doing an especially poor job of containing because of the "perversion of individual rights". Fact is, if everyone simply practices good hygiene, distancing and wears a mask whenever possible, we could be well on our way to recovery - which has struck the music industry in a devastating way. Everyone has access to facts. The first wave, how various countries handled it - and which countries simply are failing and why.

Selfish attitude is not "propaganda". Infections just do not happen - they are caused. Non-cooperative people are a danger to society in general!

What an inspiring link. Things that brass players can do to protect those around us. I will be making and testing various materials. Details as this unfolds!

Gary,
normally I do not answer your 20 posts answering each of mine or anyone elses (must have something to do with keeping your post count high). In this case I make an exception and quote "So here is my bitch with your bitch ROWUK... how in the hell did you get the idea this was a discussion about using alcohol as a cleaning agent? The posts above are discussing alcohol as a disinfectant:"

Well, what is the title of this thread? I rest my case. How in the hell did I get the idea? Simple reading. The OP even goes into detail in the initial post about much more than disinfection. In fact, what he does is something that I would never do - for various reasons.

Now, unrelated to the content - why do you respond with "how in the hell did you get...". Do you ever look in the mirror (figuratively) and think about how you address people - who you even are? I know that you consider yourself to be a top expert on many things - unfortunately the shitty presentations does reduce the urge to even bother to get involved to about zero.

So, as far as this thread is concerned, I am done too. Don't bother to respond to me, I am not coming back to this thread. There is nothing that you could add to "clear" the situation up. Be sure that what I have said here will not get repeated elsewhere, it is simply not worth my time.

I have been watching this thread for a while and was not sure that I even wanted to get involved...

There is a strong tendency to "want to be right" which is OK, but I would ask if the original question was even the correct one. More on this later.

If we talk about cleaning instruments, surely alcohol - in whatever form is just a small piece of the picture. So, I think that this thread has identified the organic contaminants, but is that all that we are after? If Alcohol does not "remove" the contaminants, could it possibly decrease our chances of getting sick with a quick disinfect?

And here is my bitch with this thread - we have all the expert opinions but have ignored the fact that alcohol is NOT a cleaning agent of choice for the home. Water, a surfactant and some brushes are the primary choice to CLEAN the instruments - get the organic material that gunks up the valves, spit valves, promotes corrosion and would need disinfecting in the first place. Once the instruments are clean, they play best. Alcohol can be used as a disinfecting agent AFTER cleaning. Just like corona, or any surgical activity, we ALWAYS scrub first, THEN disinfect.

Now, we could argue that excessive disinfecting actually is a bigger problem than cure in many ways. Our immune system is capable of developing when exposed to small amounts of "contaminants". Kids that play in the mud seem to be healthier than the ones "protected" by overzealous parents. Could we not have a similar situation with the trumpet?

So, now we have enough information to replace "theory" with practical recommendations:

Many of us use excessive oil to "flush" aerosols and contaminants out of the valve block - instead of cleaning. I generally oil once a week. Mouthpiece and leadpipe/tuning slide get CLEANING with water, dishwashing liquid and a brush at least once a week - perhaps more often if we gig A LOT. The whole horn gets a bath/scrub once a month/quarter/year depending on how much it gets played. That is probably enough maintenance for any healthy trumpeter.

I only use alcohol when someone is trying my mouthpieces or I am in a store trying new mouthpieces out. I have NEVER disinfected my trumpet. If I wipe down the outside on my gold plated instruments, glass cleaner seems to be a really good thing.

So, I think that we have to pick our words carefully, otherwise we are just arguing about NOTHING.

"Stiffer" and "faster" are two completely different things.

My experience is that the speed of the valve is based on mass, proper break in, correct oiling and freedom from aerosols/deposits - not spring tension. If any of these factors are not tightly controlled, we can have a stiffer spring, but no increase in performance. Stretching a spring offers no performance increase at all and the possibility that the spring is no longer true which would actually hurt performance.

That being said, I have never had a trumpet after cleaning and adjustment that was too slow with the standard springs. I did have a period where I wanted a stiffer feel - that actually made me more consciously bang the valves down.

Let us remember that there are two parts to valve action - first down, then back up. Stiffer springs can very well slow down the down stroke by increasing resistance to compression. Our fingers do not behave in a linear fashion.

@grune Even if it were "accurate" what does that mean? Can our eyes tell us how a mouthpiece rim will interface to our lips? It only shows the rim and cup - a lot of how a mouthpiece feels is in the bore and backbore however. We are sensitive to contours in 1/1000ths - how "accurately" can a 72dpi -150dpi screen image be.
The comparator for me is evidence that Kanstul measured many typical mouthpieces in a repeatable way. That makes it probably the best database out there. I can say however that the Kanstul Monette copies had nothing to do with the real thing - from "feeling" or playing characteristics. I am sure that the rim and cup were accurately measured - there is more to feel than the rim and cup...

I have made some interesting discoveries during my career.

1. A gold plated mouthpiece "feels" bigger than the same size silver plated
2. a well used mouthpiece with a scratched rim feels bigger than a brand new shiny one of the same size
3. many players are dependent on a bit of "sharpness" of the inner rim for "grip". That dependency can be greatly reduced after weeks to months of embouchure building (Stamp/Irons)
4. shallow cups greatly increase the need to critically match horn and mouthpiece - especially in regard to intonation
5. beginners benefit from "sharper" rims as the vibrating surface is more clearly defined. Once the student has reached a certain degree of proficiency, it is often worth experimenting with less sharp feeling models
6. it is impossible to look at a rim and predict anything.

What an original way to get brass players to look at a specific brand never before mentioned at this site. The OP didn't say anything about what kind of horns, mouthpieces or accessories that they wanted to carry. Sounds almost like they were trying to sneak this in as an ad!

The 4 trumpet case seems to be pretty flimsy inside and expensive on the outside. The dealers that I frequent do not carry it, so I cannot offer anything special other than there is nothing that draws special attention to any detail.

This is not the first time that Moshe/Morris started a thread like this - with similar outcome (disappearing for a while/not getting the result that he wanted).
He thought that he was being "clever" by asking for a prayer request by going into great detail about not asking for a prayer request. That was 100% sure to draw the responses that it did. Not very clever.

A prayer request in my world is not a strictly "religious" activity. If he had simply come out with his personal challenge and ask us to keep him in our thoughts and prayers, everything would go its course. The thread would be somewhere else today. Life is full of challenges and having "community" to help deal with them is a special thing. It is a two way street however. Those that insist on being the "underdog" generally end up there without outside help. Open internet forums are generally not very good at psychological challenges as it is far too easy to get off track - then the thread owner is no longer the center of attention - or help. That is not a deficiency in the community. It is simply online life with very "random" approaches based of our form for that specific point in time.

If we want to reap interest, we have to invest. That is true of home, work or online forums.

I hope that Morris got the support that he was looking for. At TrumpetMaster he would pop up in irregular intervals and then go away, sometimes on his own, sometime with help.

@barliman2001 It is great to know that you were not homely enough - but someone else was qualified!

Thanks for the link! I was not aware that there was a recording using real natural trumpets. Most of the recordings these days use "baroque" trumpets - the most modern in the trumpet family (although they claim "historic), with holes for intonation correction and security.

Regardless how hard the times are, when it is over, people will look and see who "made the best" out of it and who just bitched. I can't speak for anyone else, but throughout the hard times in my life, staying in motion kept my sense of self worth and gave me skills to take advantage of the few opportunities left. Even during these tough times, I have a gig every weekend at old peoples homes. I have been playing since Easter. They are waiting for me - every Sunday. 4 locations, Sunday mornings. It is AWESOME!

Last time that I looked, Al Cass was not synthetic. I am also not aware of a valve oil that only lasts 2 hours. The volatility is such that one working day is normal. At that point, the "thin" stuff has evaporated, but the rest is still there - we are not down to bare metal.

My experience is that spirit based oils last a day, then the action is not as "fast". Synthetics last a week BUT as the trumpet has no lubrication system except "reoil", the aerosols from our breath are flushed out during oiling - making the full week with synthetics a double edged sword.

Our trumpets talk to us. When we learn to listen, we give them the care that they need.

I have used LaTromba T2 for as long as I can remember. I have tried out Ultra Pure, Monster, Yamaha, Bach, Roche Thomas, Al Cass, Hetmans and they are all great - I just get a good deal when I buy a case of LaTromba T2 here in Germany. It is cheaper in bulk.

@administrator said in Notes I wish were there!:

R. Strauss - Eine Alpensinfonie, Auf dem Gipfel concert no. 86:

How I wish Strauss had inserted a high E there. He expected his 3rd trumpet to play fortissimo G, C & D, surely it would not have been a stretch to insert a 1/2 note E. This bothers me every time I hear a recording of the piece!!

In German orchestras the 3rd trumpet is often a 3rd/assistant 1st trumpet position. The player would have been capable.
He therefore did not leave the E out because of the player not being able, he simply did not want that climax there. Just think about all of the attempts to get to the top of Mt. Everest. Strauss documenting not getting to the top (without death or a train wreck) is significant.

@Brian-Moon
is a joke thread really the place for another Evolutionist vs Creationist discourse? I think the topic deserves its own thread - with the chance that it will get shut down when (not if) it gets louder. It is almost religion - regardless of what side of the issue one is on. We did have this issue at TrumpetMaster too...

As far as the NY Times "consistently" lying, that is certainly open to interpretation if reporting someone elses findings is lying or reporting. Or if it is the reader that injects other arguments...

I have no knowledge of jellyfish, so I asked Dr. Google what science there is. There is a wealth of research and plenty of non ambiguous "proof". It was an interesting 30 minutes!

The reference to Utah specifies the Cambrian era (in fact 500 million years ago):
Van Iten, Heyo; Marques, Antonio C.; Leme, Juliana de Moraes; Pacheco, Mirian L. A. Forancelli; Simões, Marcello Guimaraes (2014). Smith, Andrew (ed.). "Origin and early diversification of the phylum Cnidaria Verrill: major developments in the analysis of the taxon's Proterozoic-Cambrian history". Palaeontology. 57 (4): 677–690. doi:10.1111/pala.12116.

A more precise date using modern radiometric dating yield a date of 541 ± 0.3 million years ago.
Gradstein, F.M.; Ogg, J.G.; Smith, A.G.; et al. (2004). A Geologic Time Scale 2004. Cambridge University Press.

None of the science that I mentioned delves into any divine creation or "evolution" of the jellyfish from lower forms. It does show a unique trait that makes a specific type more or less immortal. Here is a non-scientific site that is certainly entertaining: https://immortal-jellyfish.com

Let's make this thread funny again...