Does a large bore horn take more air?

[Bob Pixley]

@Dr-GO said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

@grune said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

@Kehaulani What do you mean, "take more air"? Technically, yes, a larger bore is a larger diameter, which creates a larger volume of air.

The volume of air in a horn is static. Large bore, medium bore or small bore. We do not replace that air when we blow into the mouthpiece, but are vibrating the air that is already there. So it takes no increase in air (more air) in a large bore horn if the efficiency in the vibratory freedom of that horn moves the sound wave through the medium filling the horn.

I'll disagree a bit. True, the air is already in the horn, but the act of blowing to induce lip vibration does move air through the instrument.

[Kehaulani]

Then, why do some players "run out of air/gas" in large-bore horns quicker than in smaller-bore horns?

[Tobylou8]

@Bob-Pixley said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

@Dr-GO said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

@grune said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

@Kehaulani What do you mean, "take more air"? Technically, yes, a larger bore is a larger diameter, which creates a larger volume of air.

The volume of air in a horn is static. Large bore, medium bore or small bore. We do not replace that air when we blow into the mouthpiece, but are vibrating the air that is already there. So it takes no increase in air (more air) in a large bore horn if the efficiency in the vibratory freedom of that horn moves the sound wave through the medium filling the horn.

I'll disagree a bit. True, the air is already in the horn, but the act of blowing to induce lip vibration does move air through the instrument.

Yep, the air moves or you can't play the horn. Take a simple cheap Bach practice mute, insert into the bell and play. As you play, place your finger over the hole in the end. The air cannot flow through the horn and all sound stops, and if you're playing loudly, your ears may pop!

[Dr GO]

@Bob-Pixley said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

@Dr-GO said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

@grune said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

@Kehaulani What do you mean, "take more air"? Technically, yes, a larger bore is a larger diameter, which creates a larger volume of air.

The volume of air in a horn is static. Large bore, medium bore or small bore. We do not replace that air when we blow into the mouthpiece, but are vibrating the air that is already there. So it takes no increase in air (more air) in a large bore horn if the efficiency in the vibratory freedom of that horn moves the sound wave through the medium filling the horn.

I'll disagree a bit. True, the air is already in the horn, but the act of blowing to induce lip vibration does move air through the instrument.

Watch the video of blowing smoke through the horn. It moves very slowly. It's the vibratory wave that transmits rapidly.

[Dr GO]

@Tobylou8 said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

Yep, the air moves or you can't play the horn. Take a simple cheap Bach practice mute, insert into the bell and play. As you play, place your finger over the hole in the end. The air cannot flow through the horn and all sound stops, and if you're playing loudly, your ears may pop!

Nope... Air travels much more slowly than the vibratory wave.

[Tobylou8]

@Dr-GO said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

@Tobylou8 said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

Yep, the air moves or you can't play the horn. Take a simple cheap Bach practice mute, insert into the bell and play. As you play, place your finger over the hole in the end. The air cannot flow through the horn and all sound stops, and if you're playing loudly, your ears may pop!

Nope... Air travels much more slowly than the vibratory wave.

Did you do what I described? I never said the air flowed faster, I just said it flowed. This discussion is reminiscent of the solid mouthpiece debate. The solid/blocked off mouthpiece works fine (as long as there is an exhaust port in the mpc). The bell is an exhaust port and if there are issues with corks or cracks in the tubing, air leaks out and the sound suffers.

[Dirk020]

@Kehaulani said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

Then, why do some players "run out of air/gas" in large-bore horns quicker than in smaller-bore horns?

Now that is a very good question! Since my Getzen 900 LB took so many less air to fire up rather than the Getzen 900 Severinsen ML I had to sell the latter, same thing for my Bach 180/43* rather then the old Bach 180/37...
Both horns ML bore but the 180/43* sucked all the air out of me

My old Conn 'Victor' 22B (M bore) had the same feel like my Bach 180/37 ML bore
The Getzen Eterna 700S ML bore feels a lot tighter than my Conn 18B Director M bore

Bore size said nothing, there are simply too many parameters in trumpets to judge them on bore size only; you'll have to try them

[Kehaulani]

@Kehaulani said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

I've read a bunch of threads on this and they all devolve into other factors.

Like I said.

[Shifty]

@Kehaulani said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

@Kehaulani said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

I've read a bunch of threads on this and they all devolve into other factors.

Like I said.

Albert Einstein actually said “It can scarcely be denied that the supreme goal of all theory is to make the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible without having to surrender the adequate representation of a single datum of experience.”

What he meant was "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."

[moshe]

If all other factors are the same,
a larger bore takes more air.

On the other hand, things such as tightness of the wrap can cause the larger bore to require less air than the smaller bore.

So the answer is the same as what I wear:

Depends.

moshe

[Robrtx]

Is what some people are calling "taking more air" in reality fatigue experienced by having to work harder at playing precisely with a trumpet that is less efficient?

[ROWUK]

@moshe said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

If all other factors are the same,
a larger bore takes more air.

On the other hand, things such as tightness of the wrap can cause the larger bore to require less air than the smaller bore.

So the answer is the same as what I wear:

Depends.

moshe

@moshe said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

If all other factors are the same,
a larger bore takes more air.

On the other hand, things such as tightness of the wrap can cause the larger bore to require less air than the smaller bore.

So the answer is the same as what I wear:

Depends.

moshe

Simply, NO. it is not the bore that needs air. It is the resistance and that has nothing to do with the bore.

[Dr GO]

@ROWUK said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

Simply, NO. it is not the bore that needs air. It is the resistance and that has nothing to do with the bore.

Thanks Rowuk. I've been trying to convince others on this thread but they all seem to be reluctant to appreciate the physics of a propagating sound wave through various materials. I guess my having a PhD in quantum chemistry doesn't qualify me, but your understanding of Trumpet physics truly blends with my training in wave forms.

The simple observation that if it was air transmission dependent, we would not be hearing the sound until seconds after a note was played. I hope people reflect on these concepts as I do feel this understanding can enhance the performance we get from our horns.

[ROWUK]

@Dr-GO said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

@ROWUK said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

Simply, NO. it is not the bore that needs air. It is the resistance and that has nothing to do with the bore.

Thanks Rowuk. I've been trying to convince others on this thread but they all seem to be reluctant to appreciate the physics of a propagating sound wave through various materials. I guess my having a PhD in quantum chemistry doesn't qualify me, but your understanding of Trumpet physics truly blends with my training in wave forms.

The simple observation that if it was air transmission dependent, we would not be hearing the sound until seconds after a note was played. I hope people reflect on these concepts as I do feel this understanding can enhance the performance we get from our horns.

I have experimented with a headphone speaker glued to a mouthpiece. The trumpet needs no air flow. Only the players lips need enough air to get them to open and close by overcoming lip tension. The smart players learn to reduce tension, that reduces pressure and the amount of air flowing.

To be honest, I think that the air discussion has more to do with mine is bigger than yours than with serious intelligent practice. If a trumpet needs more air, the phrases that we play become shorter.

[Dr GO]

Thanks Rowuk, and to continue to press our point:

More on the thoughts that it takes more air to fill a large bore horn.

This is the volume of a 0.458 inch bore down the length of the leadpipe into the valve casing:
V = pi x r2 x length = 215 ml (conversion made to change inches to centimeters)

This is the volume of a 0.468 inch bore down the length of the leadpipe into the valve casing:
V = pi x r2 x length = 226 ml (conversion made to change inches to centimeters)

So the difference between the medium bore and large bore used in this example is 11 ml.
Your lungs vital capacity is 500 ml and when taking in a breath to play a maximum blow is at 5,000 ml.

So just playing your horn without the need to take in an extra breath (using that 500 ml of air) means that the demand of the volume of lung air to "fill the large bore horn" is only (500 ml - 11 ml)/500 ml = or only 2% of your lung's vital capacity to increase the air filling of a large bore trumpet over a medium bore trumpet.

If you still think you are working harder filling your large bore horn with air, then please, schedule an appointment with me at my new medical practice at Western Medicine, LLC in Enon, Ohio, because I need to seriously start a work up for lung disease.

[Dr GO]

@ROWUK said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

Simply, NO. it is not the bore that needs air. It is the resistance and that has nothing to do with the bore.

Thank you again Rowuk. And in fact the bore effect on resistance would predict from Poiseuille's law to be LESS FOR A LARGER BORE:

R = constant/r(4) So the larger the number (bore diameter) in the denominator, the SMALLER the resistance. So again the decreased resistance in a 0.468 bore versus 0.458 bore instrument is ONLY 8%. Again, I do not think you will feel this and again I hope Rowuk and I convince you that the resistance has nothing (very little at best) to do with the bore.

Can we now but this discussion to rest? Please stop breaking the [Poiseuille] law.

[Kehaulani]

So, if I buy a medium-bore and a large-bore from Kanstul, I would not find the large-bore harder on my endurance and other perimeters at the end of a night's gig? They would have the same result?

[flugelgirl]

@Kehaulani You will definitely find one of them easier to play at the end of the night, but it’s hard to say which one. I’ve played some large bore horns where my phrases are shorter and I gasp rather than breathe at the end of them. I’ve played others that feel like the slots are much further apart, and still others that feel no different from a medium large at all. I usually feel that range is more difficult above a certain point on a medium bore. I’ve found that horns that afford me with better intonation are best for my endurance more than any other factor. Your results may differ, but you really have to try for yourself in the end.

[Dr GO]

@Kehaulani said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

So, if I buy a medium-bore and a large-bore from Kanstul, I would not find the large-bore harder on my endurance and other perimeters at the end of a night's gig? They would have the same result?

That cannot be a given. Remember, as Rowuk says, there ARE other characteristics of horns that changes the resistance. If that large-bore Kanstul is designed with efficiency in it's bracing and slides bends, then perhaps, but you just don't know unless you try them together,

[Dr GO]

Flugelgirl, interesting that we posted at the same time. Actually you were about 10 seconds ahead of me. So I do sound a bit repetitive to your post but I totally agree with you. Great minds, right?