Researching old instruments



  • Besides the branded more or less famous horns out there exists a great number of horns with names but no pedigree. Stencil horns is a usual term. However, some were sub lines of major brands like Conn also branded Pan American, Continental, Cavalier,etc. There were the ones that were hidden behind other names like Sears, Montgomery Ward, and lessor lights like J.W.Jenkins. The bible for the internet is Horn-U-Copia. https://horn-u-copia.net/

    One time I was trying to find out some information on a peashooter with the branding of Knickerbocker underlined Made-In-USA. I've yet to find a link to it's source. One would think "Knickerbocker" would be something with a link to New York maybe. There are a lot of horns like this we all have come across from time to time that are mysteries. Any ideas as to where this one came from? peashooter.jpg

    bell.jpg



  • The valve caps and finger buttons look like the ones used on old Bueschers.



  • @Niner

    Looks just like my Olympian.
    Which looks like the very first Holton Collegiate line.
    Not 100% sure but may be made by a company back then called Beaufort-maybe
    OldSchoolEuph probably will have the most knowledge on this subject and I consider his site to be biblical in trumpet history content



  • @Bob-Pixley said in Researching old instruments:

    The valve caps and finger buttons look like the ones used on old Bueschers.

    How do you pronounce "Buescher"? 👹



  • @Kehaulani I asked this same question of a German friend of ours ,who is prone to being pedantic on matters of language.
    Her view was that it should be pronounced phonetically...booscher. Then again, there may be regional variations.
    Regards, Tom



  • I was meanly joking. The pronunciation by the American Buescher family, is "Bischer".



  • @Kehaulani Ah well, sounds like a case of you say tomato and I say tomarto. In the end it hardly matters. I enjoy the 3 I have.



  • @djeffers78 Beaufort was a sub line of Holton. Made in Chicago. I have a Beaufort cornet...made in Chicago embossed on the bell. Don't think that's the answer.



  • @Niner
    https://www.trumpet-history.com/Holton Models.pdf

    Check the Holton Collegiate model 172.
    On or about page 100 in the Holton model guide



  • Horn-U-Copia has a listing for a Knickerbocker Trumpet and describes it as a "Conn Stencil." From what I can see the engraving is different but otherwise they look like the same horn.

    https://www.horn-u-copia.net/show.php?selby=+where+instrument%3D"Trumpet"+and+maker%3D"Knickerbocker"



  • @JorgePD said in Researching old instruments:

    Horn-U-Copia has a listing for a Knickerbocker Trumpet and describes it as a "Conn Stencil." From what I can see the engraving is different but otherwise they look like the same horn.

    https://www.horn-u-copia.net/show.php?selby=+where+instrument%3D"Trumpet"+and+maker%3D"Knickerbocker"

    I used to have a Crusader trumpet that looked almost exactly like the one in the original post, except for the valve buttons and caps. I believe it was a Conn stencil, but didn't have the knurled buttons and caps.
    MVC-015S.JPG



  • @JorgePD Hadn't noticed that before. Must be a relatively new addition to his list. It used to be that you could enlarge the photo slightly for a better look but the thumbnails are one of the maddening things about Horn-u-copia. What I have and what is shown is not the same in furniture design...the braces, the valve caps, etc. It's not from the same horn factory I'd say. From what little I can see on that link the bell engraving looks more like a an Artex at the top and the braces and the valve caps which, by the way Horn-u-copia lists as made in Czechoslovakia in the stencil section. The Artex horn I have says made in Elkhart USA and I think from the Art line of Harry Pedler. The point of this being, Knickerbocker was probably a name that wasn't nailed down to a particular maker.

    Many names on horns are generically used by any maker that cares to use them. Nobody was going to go to court over a name on a commodity horn back in the day. I type "commodity" in that anything that looked like a cornet was considered a cornet and trade names were not worth fighting over in the stencil market.....like the name on a trumpet made in China is today.

    Here is the Artex I have that looks more like Horn-u-copias Knickerbocker.

    DSC00277.jpg
    artex.jpg



  • @Bob-Pixley that looks possible. One main brace that is angled doesn't disqualify it as a possible family member.



  • @chelpres said in Researching old instruments:

    @Kehaulani I asked this same question of a German friend of ours ,who is prone to being pedantic on matters of language.
    Her view was that it should be pronounced phonetically...booscher. Then again, there may be regional variations.
    Regards, Tom

    With the double o in Boosher being pronounced like in "good or wood". The german slightly nasal pronunciation cannot be replicated with english vowels.



  • @ROWUK said in Researching old instruments:

    @chelpres said in Researching old instruments:

    @Kehaulani I asked this same question of a German friend of ours ,who is prone to being pedantic on matters of language.
    Her view was that it should be pronounced phonetically...booscher. Then again, there may be regional variations.
    Regards, Tom

    With the double o in Boosher being pronounced like in "good or wood". The german slightly nasal pronunciation cannot be replicated with english vowels.

    While that may be correct in proper German, American families are notorious for bastardizing an original language and transforming it into an Americanized pronunciation.

    A near-by town is named Groen but is pronounced Green. Actually, Gruen is green in English but my point is the difference between what was originally the proper pronunciation vs. Americanization.

    Buescher was an American company and it's family American. I have seen an official Buescher promotion from the family that emphasises that they pronounce the word "Bisher". Grammatically wrong but hey, they're American, they can call it what they want.


  • Global Moderator

    @chelpres The "ue" in German is somewhere between a U "oo" and an i "ee". Reminding yourself of a Scottish accent, you might phonetically write it "ui" as in Scottish "puir" for "poor".



  • When I took Duetsche in HS-I was taught to pronounce ü as make my mouth in the shape to say O but say E



  • There has been discussion, that part of the family may even have Belgian roots. Give it up. It's Bisher.



  • @Kehaulani Groen is actually dutch for green.



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