Carol Brass Sticky Valves

[orly61]

Hello everyone,
I have a new Carol Brass CTR-9395L medium bore (0.453") trumpet custom finished in copper plating. I have had this horn for three weeks now and I love it but, from day one, the third valve randomly hangs briefly on the way up (upstroke). The second valve also sometimes hesitates when pressed down. This seems to happen only when the horn is played and has warmed up but not when just pressing the valves without actually playing. Has anyone else experienced this problem with other Carol Brass trumpets? My understanding is that they produce one of the best valve blocks in the industry and even provide them to some high-end trumpet manufacturers.
I have cleaned the pistons and valve casings a couple of times with mild soap/water and lint free cleaning towels to remove any metallic particles residue left from the manufacturing process. I have then oiled the valves again using La Tromba Special T2 oil, which is provided and recommended by Carol Brass. This temporarily seemed to fix the problem but after playing the horn for a while, the problem comes back. It is extremely annoying and makes practicing and/or performing difficult or impossible to execute.
Based on visual inspection, I do not see any piston/casing imperfections or slight burrs on the valve port edges that may cause the piston to hang but I am not a professional technician. However, upon removing the piston and re-inserting it from the bottom of the valve casing and pressing the piston, the vinyl valve guide did get temporarily stuck and then released on two attempts. Otherwise, the piston in and out action was smooth and free without any sensation of metal to metal friction. I wonder if there is a problem with the valve guides or the slots in where they slide.
I will appreciate any thoughts or possible solutions to the problem I have described above. Thank you so much, in advance, for your comments.

[Kehaulani]

I'd take it back to the dealer you bought it from (I'm assuming it's still under warranty) and tell them what you told us.

Having done all you have previously done, I would have them check out the fit of the valves, see if the valve casing true, and maybe the horn got bumped and one of the valve slides was bumped into the valve housing. It doesn't take much and you might not be able to see it.

[GeorgeB]

Kehaulani's advice is exactly what you should do. Now if it was shipped to you anything can happen, so best to contact the dealer.
George

[orly61]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I appreciate your time and welcome any other helpful information you may have. Have a great day!

[ROWUK]

Breaking in the valves can take a while. The tighter the tolerances, the longer it takes.

I also use T2 oil which is on the very thin side - which is good for tight valves.

In many cases, the player does not push the valves down straight when playing. When valves are not broken in, that can cause them to bind. The solution is to practice more, fast and slow which will cause minor wear (breaking in) according to the geometry of your hand.

A second possibility is the grip of death from the left hand. I remember in the Renold Schilke days his new horns needing considerable break in and easing up the intensity of the left hand grip went a long way in improving the situation.

It is important that you inform your dealer and wait for instructions. I would be VERY hesitant to have any hack try to polish something out. The correct procedure is called lapping.

[Donovan Bankhead]

@rowuk Your advice is spot on. Tolerances are right with Carol Brass valves, and it can take a bit of time to break in.

[Vulgano Brother]

With stainless steel, is it the valve itself that gets broken in, or the casing?

[orly61]

Thanks ROWUK and Donovan for your comments. How much time do you anticipate is the average time to properly break in the valves with one to two hour practice every day? Is it weeks, months or years? The dealer noted a one year warranty on his web site. I want to give the necessary time for adequate break in but not to exceed the warranty period in the event that issue is not due to break in but a defect.

Another observation I have made (not sure if related) is that when I sustain long notes like low g or low F#, there is a vibrating metallic sound coming out of the horn like if it was the valve spring(s) vibrating with the low frequencies. Any thoughts? Thanks again for your comments!!!

[J. Jericho]

Close tolerances can take a bit of break-in time. It took a month and a half of going through the routine of wiping the friction residue off and re-lubricating the valves and valve casings once or twice a day whenever they started to stick on my Yamaha YFH-731 flugelhorn before they suddenly went from sluggish to perfect.

[barliman2001]

I hate breaking-in instruments. That's why I have said goodbye to even thinking about new instruments, and have concentrated on vintage hooters - which, to me at least, have more character anyway. They seem to have accumulated the wisdom and musical spirit of all the players before me.
For me, it's simply a joy to think about how long a pedigree a vintage instrument must have.
And - what's more - I've found that I much prefer the Balanced style of trumpet. Somehow, I feel more at home with them, and they seem to like me... so I now have only one "normal" trumpet left (amongst the Bbs, that is), my 1920s Buescher Aristocrat (oh, and one Conn-Amati thing that is remarkable only for the blue lacquer and the drunk vulture enamelled on the bell). Apart from that, there is two Courtois Balanced models (originally the same model; but one came to me in decrepit old age, and the geriatric department at Votruba's were afraid to restore it as it might dissolve into dust at anything beyond a gentle rub-over with a soft cloth. They recommended I should not even polish the silver plating, as the plating more or less kept the horn together... still a wonderful player, so when a friend mentioned he had a spare one - actually, his wife set him a limit in the number of horns he is allowed to have, so when he wants another one, one has to go, and he desperately wanted an Inderbinen - I secured that before it went elsewhere), and my Olds Recording.

[flugelgirl]

@orly61 You should really contact the dealer about these issues. I would suspect that your valves may be dragging because of hand placement - new valves with close tolerances do not like to be hit sideways. Check your pistons for any spots where they have rubbed, and that should tell you where your hand position strays. If your horn has a buzz that it shouldn’t, that is a sure sign of a warranty repair or replacement. That could signify anything from a valve spring to a leak or even a broken bell bead, and should be handled under warranty.

[administrator]

@flugelgirl said in Carol Brass Sticky Valves:

@orly61 You should really contact the dealer about these issues. I would suspect that your valves may be dragging because of hand placement - new valves with close tolerances do not like to be hit sideways. Check your pistons for any spots where they have rubbed, and that should tell you where your hand position strays. If your horn has a buzz that it shouldn’t, that is a sure sign of a warranty repair or replacement. That could signify anything from a valve spring to a leak or even a broken bell bead, and should be handled under warranty.

This is the advice I would offer. Better than random people on the internet.

[tmd]

Very sorry this is happening.

New valves need to be broken in. Some more than others. Wipe down the valves and the valve casings with a lint-free cloth and then reoil. Do this every day for 2-4 weeks. If they're still sticking, return the horn.

I'm not a tech, so the following is just my "2 cents" about valves.

• Valves sticking only when playing (and not sticking when you're not playing), suggests your hand-positioning (at least in part) may be contributing.

• Valves sticking after the horn warms up (both when playing and not playing), suggests it's a problem with the valves.

Mike

[Trumpetb]

Apologies for adding yet another post on this topic but if there is one thing I have learned it is that there are more than a dozen ways for valves to show this behavior, and it can take a huge effort to resolve it.

This is perhaps why there are so many different opinions on this.

First of all the manufacturing process is not consistent it never can be but I would expect the manufacturer to have made good valves lapped well to the casings.

The manufacturer is the first stop and they will confirm that either the valves are within tolerances or they need to be worked on, and this would be a warranty fix,

If the manufacturer says the valves are good they should offer suggestions of what to do next.

The next consideration is valves that need to bed in and that will take a few weeks to complete, If you play it rarely then it could take months. It is the number of valve actuations that beds valves in not the time in days or weeks

Next after this is cleanliness and care, if you allow dirt debris lint or other material to get into the instrument then this could cause sticking of the valves. Keep the instrument scrupulously clean.

The casings are not made of the same material as the valves and differential expansion as the instrument warms up can cause the clearance between valve and chamber to close up and the first you know of it is the valves stick if the gap is small around the valve.

Next there is breakfast lunch and dinner. If you do not clean your teeth before playing then you will be blowing your last meal into the instrument and the days pizza or fries will get stuck on the valves and stop them working.

Next we have finger action. Eccentric finger action can cause valves to stick and this happens more frequently as the instrument warms

The final conclusion may be as complex as this:-

The valves are new and tolerances are super tight, the tolerances close up as the instrument warms, debris in the mouth is blown into the instrument, and the fingers dont make a pure straight up and down stroke.

Add to this if the oiling in not as frequent as it could be, then all of these effects add up and the valves stick.

You say that the valves stick then after cleaning and oiling the problem goes away and then returns after some time. You dont say how long that some time is.

This suggests that
1 the oil is settling as you play
2 the valves have some debris on them just before you clean them
3 fresh possibly excessive oil is causing the valve to slide easily and the problem goes away

I always over oil so I recommend that.

I oil before play, then oil during play, then oil after play.
There is no such thing as too much oil there can be however too little oil.

My experience cannot be used as a guide however because my valves all have loose tolerances so your instrument demands a much higher level of care than mine do.

I would not expect a quick fix on this, but I will say it sounds like you have a good instrument, and after this issue is resolved it will be a great instrument.

Dont lose faith in your instrument, it is I believe no more than teething troubles and it will improve.

Take it one step at a time starting with the manufacturer.

[orly61]

Hi @flugelgirl , thanks for your input. I play with my finger tips so the pistons slide up and down without any slant/skew. The piston does not show any wear or spots that have rubbed. I do hear a faint vibration with a metallic sound when holding low notes below the staff (low A to low F#). To me it sounds like a sound the valve springs would make. If so, I do not know what the relation from this to the valve randomly hanging on the upstroke could be. There is no apparent damage to the bell bead or loose portions of the bead that are detached from the bell that would cause the vibration sound. If the valve problem is due to something other than a valve break-in issue, I wish this could be resolved locally rather than sending the horn back to Carol Brass. Thank you in advance for any other advise you may have.

[orly61]

Hi @trumpetb,
Thank you so much for your comments. What is your best estimate of how many actuations (in the hundreds or thousands) would be required in order for the valves to bed in? Is "bed in" and "break in" the same thing? If not please explain. Thank you in advance for your advise.

[ROWUK]

@orly61 Going back though the last 55 years of playing and teaching, I have only had one horn that had issues - and that was me (grip of death).
The lesson that I learned very early is that we clean the valves, wait until they are bone dry and THEN oil them. Oil does not stick to moisture, metal that has an oil film does not let moisture cause issues.
Break in is actually "wear in". With a properly cleaned and oiled trumpet, 4 weeks should be enough unless you have a Schilke (tighter tolerances - more break in time).
Make a video while playing to see if you are pushing the valves down from the side instead of the top.

[Dr GO]

One other piece of advice I learned from Rowuk, is to also wipe the valve before oiling. This also removes the microdeposits of solid substances that can collect on the surface. Since doing this, my valves after oiling have had the quickest response I have ever experienced.

[J. Jericho]

@orly61 As for the vibration, many decades ago my new Elkhart Bach Model 37 had a buzz that turned out to be incomplete solder on one of the first valve tubes. While it was being repaired under warranty, I had the opportunity to use my band director's King Silversonic. There was no comparison between the two; I was glad to get my Bach back. That trumpet is one of the few horns I would like to still have. Anyway, the vibration in your Carol Brass trumpet could be something that is not possible to see, and needs inspection by someone qualified and experienced.

[Trumpetb]

@orly61 Hi you asked me directly for an estimate of how many actuations would be required to bed in valves.

The answer is too complex to be reliably given, I will explain why this is.

Different manufacturers each have their own methods of fabricating valves although the process is the same for all manufacturers, the fine detail does vary due to variations in raw materials and fabrication methods and tooling.

Additionally when a manufacturer fabricates a series of products which are designed to be identical they do not end up being identical, this is due to inaccuracies in manufacturing tolerances allowing minute variations and is unavoidable.

Also different manufacturers use different metals for the valves and even the same metals may have slight differences within the metal depending upon the foundry they came from and the different proportions of each element in the alloy.

Monel for example is a mixture of copper nickel iron manganese carbon and silicon. different monels used by different manufacturers have slightly different amounts of each element in the alloy and this alters the hardness of the resulting monel.

These differences make valves wear in or bed in at different rates and for this reason it is impossible to predict the rate of bed in for any instrument when we do not fully understand the hardness of each of the metals.

We do know the position of each metal on Mohs scale, but the Mohs scale value of each metal is simply not accurate enough to assess complex wear rates to be able to answer your question.

Add to this the variations in the amount of oil present around the valves in use and we have another factor which also alters significantly the rate of bed in or break in of the valves and this renders the Mohs hardness value moot.

The result is it cannot be predicted how long it will take or the number of actuations it will take to bed in or break in any given set of valves. There are simply too many unknown variables.

The answers given by ROWUK DR GO flugelgirl and the other knowledgeable members are the best anyone can come up with.

Or to put the answer simply, - It depends.

All I am prepared to say is, it will take as long as it takes.