@moshe said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
The Conn 5A and the Conn 9A are identical,
but Conn Loyalist says that the Conn 9A has the feel of a larger bore.
I have owned 5 Conn 5A and 3 Conn 9A,
and I can verify that the Conn 9A demands more air
although it is the same bore size and wrap as a Conn 5A.
All interchangeable parts.
Only difference is Copper versus Brass.Morris / moshe
BINGO!
@flugelgirl said in Can Playing with Musicians Out of Tune Give You a Headache?:
Interesting question. I know that if I have to listen to or play with others that are extremely out of tune it gives me a headache, but it’s a tension headache from grinding my teeth. One of the many reasons I repair instead of teach!
Stress triggering tension itself is the most common cause of headache, and flugelgirl, I believe you have identified the most likely reason for this headache response!
@Dr-Mark said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
@Dr-GO said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
Hi Dr-GO,
You stated;
But I am not sure we really feel that additional volume of air we put in to the horn. See my above calculations. Can we really feel an 11 ml difference (that is just two rounded teaspoons of air)? The physics of the process, just filling the air does not add up. What we are feeling is the resistance from all the other components you mentioned your above post. That is what gives us the feeling of working harder.Yes, just that little bit of extra air needed to kick start a large bore trumpet is noticeable. My experience is that the feeling of "working harder" is because there's too much effort (tension) being used to get the job done. This can be due to the horn being out of tune with itself, fatigue, or improper playing technique. Most of the time, it's a matter of blowing too hard to get the job done. A correlation to how sensitive humans are to different bore sizes would be intonation. If something is out of tune just a few cents, we can hear it.
As for the physics, as we've discussed before, the trumpet is a known system for at least the last 100 years and basically we create a standing wave "inside" the trumpet and the lips oscillate sympathetically.
You have to admit, whether its large or small or medium bore, making music with plumbing isn't for sissies.
Dr.Mark
Dr. Mark, 11 ml is just 2% of our resting lung volume. How can anyone feel this? I believe it is more of a mental feeling because it sure is not a physical physiological feeling. Medically speaking, one cannot feel a 2% change for a change in lung volume to fill a void. Again, if there is the feeling of more air needed, it is a function of resistance, due to the mental perception of increasing the air flow to match that of another instrument, and not the actual volume of air.
@Niner said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
Rowuk touched upon the mouthpiece. The 7C standard issue mouthpiece with student horns....at least in my day..as the happy medium mouth piece of the one fits all class. When I was a kid in the 6th grade and learning the teacher suggested a 10 1/2 C. That was a mouthpiece for a child with a child's face and lips making up a kids embouchure. As I got older and ..bigger... I found that a mouthpiece with a wider and deeper cup was more comfortable for playing. Today I feel most comfortable with a 3C no matter what horn of the many I've collected that I pick up. It would seem to me...... and I'm no scientist nor accomplished musician..... that the mouthpiece seems the most important factor in how comfortable a horn is to play.
I believe the mouthpiece IS an important quality to how the trumpet at the other end feels in response to resistance. And I cannot deny that the cup is indeed a factor. But don't forget the back end of the mouthpiece as well.
First there is that gap that helps determine the coordination of the amplitude of the sound wave as it leaves the mouthpiece and enters the leadpipe. If the amplitude hits the leadpipe at it's highest peak, the vibration generated in the metal of the leadpipe is optimized, enhancing the efficiency of the transmitted sound wave.
Also there is the throat aperture that directly influences resistance experienced on a horn. I can give you an example of this in my experience with the Jettone Studio B produced by Jettone in the 1970's AND the Harrelson 5 mm Jettone copy that I use on my Harrelson. The standard Jettone Studio B does cause notes to bottom out as one fatigues with high range playing over time, due to playing on such a shallow cup. I would personally experience hitting air-balls as a complication towards the end of the gig. That has NEVER happened to me with the Harrelso 5 mm. Why? The rim is the same, the cup is the same through precision machining at the Harrelson factory. The ONLY difference is with the 5 mm, you can fit into the main piece any throat size desired. I have a wider throat on the Harrelson Jettone copy than the original, and man, talk about resistance free playing! I have yet to bottom out on my high range playing with that throat in place over the 2+ years that I have been playing lead gigs on that horn.
I received an email question from a musician that I would like to share with this group. Here is the context and the question:
"[A] guitar player was grossly out of tune. The way I was positioned on the stage allowed one of my ears to be pointed toward a monitor and the other ear pointed toward the audience... The sensation in the ear that was pointed toward the monitor "felt different" than the ear that was pointing toward the audience. This makes me wonder if there is more of a biological/acoustical component to the headaches people get from listening to out of tune performances and its not just tension headaches. Could it be that the cilia react in a way that displeasing when exposed to frequencies that are dissonant? Is it the way the frequencies hit the eardrum?"
I have never experience such a complaint in my medical practice so I did a PubMed search and found no articles specific to musical intonation and headaches; however, I am sure band conductors can be driven to headaches though when members play out of tune during a performance.
With that said, I actually did find an article that did note that hearing differences related to tinnitus or sensorineural hearing impairment (difference between hearing quality of ears) is linked to headaches with a 12.2% increase in headaches in patients with this disorder compared to 5.5% in patients with headache without this disorder. I am providing the link below to that abstract. So it just may be possible that some individuals may be prone to headaches by a neurological trigger stimulated by listening to out of tune performers within an ensemble.
My request to readers of this thread is to please do let me know if any of you have experienced this effect.
Here is the link:
https://www-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov.ezproxy.libraries.wright.edu/pubmed/30003226
@Dr-Mark said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
Since the size of the bore determines the volume of breath required, it will also affect the timbre.
In increasing size, bores are described as "medium bore," "medium-large bore," or "large bore." The smaller the bore, the less breath is required, resulting in an instrument that is easier to play and which boasts a subtle, mellow timbre. A larger bore requires more breath and produces a rich, flamboyant timbre and a higher volume.
Hope this helps
Dr.Mark
But I am not sure we really feel that additional volume of air we put in to the horn. See my above calculations. Can we really feel an 11 ml difference (that is just two rounded teaspoons of air)? The physics of the process, just filling the air does not add up. What we are feeling is the resistance from all the other components you mentioned your above post. That is what gives us the feeling of working harder.
Always great to have you hear to gave sound (pun intended) philosophical discussions.
@BigDub said in A little humour:
Ticket prices were higher this year for the balloon festival due to inflation
Sounds to me more like a lot of hot air!
Flugelgirl, interesting that we posted at the same time. Actually you were about 10 seconds ahead of me. So I do sound a bit repetitive to your post but I totally agree with you. Great minds, right?
@Kehaulani said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
So, if I buy a medium-bore and a large-bore from Kanstul, I would not find the large-bore harder on my endurance and other perimeters at the end of a night's gig? They would have the same result?
That cannot be a given. Remember, as Rowuk says, there ARE other characteristics of horns that changes the resistance. If that large-bore Kanstul is designed with efficiency in it's bracing and slides bends, then perhaps, but you just don't know unless you try them together,
@Richard-III said in Could you have a metal allergy?:
Thanks for all the info.
Richard-III you are so welcome. Hope all does work out for your current mouthpiece. If you do notice any of the symptoms starting, one option is gold plating. Gold chops does this for $35. I think it would be worth the try as gold has a great feel and less of a chance of developing a contact dermatitis. Plastic mouthpieces would be an alternative.
@administrator said in Could you have a metal allergy?:
I would reach out to Dr. Bergman with any questions you might have. He is a personal friend of mine, a fine trumpeter and our next ITG President. I trust his word.
I am Board Certified in Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, was the President of the Medicine-Pediatrics Residency Association, have a National Teaching Award named after me (The Gary Onady Award) published Evidence-based Systematic Reviews on allergy reactions AND am a member of the American Federation of Musicians (very proud of that one). So what am I, chopped liver?
I see and have personally cared for and treated nickel allergies (more related to jewelry) for over 30 years in my medical practice. The case you posted is a clear presentation of long duration, repeat exposure to nickel which is commonly seen in a medical practice. So any individual can additionally reach out to me through this thread, as a member of TrumpetBoards. But I ask you to judge for yourselves if you feel my above discussions are on point.
Please do read our disclaimer. I do ask that you first reach out personally to your own physician and then have that physician contact me if they have additional questions. I will provide the background and medical recommendations that physicians' will need. I serve as a consultant to United Healthcare and the American College of Physicians to produce such educational materials for physicians and patients.
@Richard-III said in Could you have a metal allergy?:
You said: "A watch or ring worn continuously for weeks will eventually give me a rash."
This is because it takes hours to days to develop nickel contact dermatitis, as opposed to minutes to hours to develop a poison ivy contact dermatitis (as the plant's oils bring the allergen into the lipid layers of the skin much more quickly). So I am betting if you paste a nickle mouthpiece to your lips (disclaimer - I do not recommend this), you would likely develop this rash as well.
The lad in the post is a trumpet student, and I bet did spend hours a day on the horn, making him even more sensitive to developing a lip contact dermatitis to nickel.
@Richard-III said in Could you have a metal allergy?:
The article linked by the OP in this thread contained this quote:
“I would feel this tingling or stinging when I put the metal mouthpiece up to my face, but I played through it because it always felt like that. It was really during the last two years when I started to feel serious pain, where it hurt to play or even touch my face after I’d been playing.”
Doesn't sound like contact dermatitis to me.
Oh but it does. Tingling, stinging initially leading to serious pain in two years. Here are the symptoms of of contact dermititis as referenced by the Mayo Clinic:
Signs and symptoms of contact dermatitis include:
A red rash.
Itching, which may be severe.
Dry, cracked, scaly skin.
Bumps and blisters, sometimes with oozing and crusting.
Swelling, burning or tenderness.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/contact-dermatitis/symptoms-causes/syc-20352742
From the same site:
*Allergic contact dermatitis occurs when a substance to which you're sensitive (allergen) triggers an immune reaction in your skin. It usually affects only the area that came into contact with the allergen. But it may be triggered by something that enters your body through foods, flavorings, medicine, or medical or dental procedures (systemic contact dermatitis).
You may become sensitized to a strong allergen such as poison ivy after a single exposure. Weaker allergens may require multiple exposures over several years to trigger an allergy. Once you develop an allergy to a substance, even a small amount of it can cause a reaction.*
Common allergens include:
Nickel, which is used in jewelry, buckles and many other items**
I stopped here because Nickel is at the TOP OF THE LIST.
Richard-III it is a contact dermatitis, caused by Nickel and it does present, especially chronically, like the individual in the post.
@ROWUK said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
Simply, NO. it is not the bore that needs air. It is the resistance and that has nothing to do with the bore.
Thank you again Rowuk. And in fact the bore effect on resistance would predict from Poiseuille's law to be LESS FOR A LARGER BORE:
R = constant/r(4) So the larger the number (bore diameter) in the denominator, the SMALLER the resistance. So again the decreased resistance in a 0.468 bore versus 0.458 bore instrument is ONLY 8%. Again, I do not think you will feel this and again I hope Rowuk and I convince you that the resistance has nothing (very little at best) to do with the bore.
Can we now but this discussion to rest? Please stop breaking the [Poiseuille] law.
Thanks Rowuk, and to continue to press our point:
More on the thoughts that it takes more air to fill a large bore horn.
This is the volume of a 0.458 inch bore down the length of the leadpipe into the valve casing:
V = pi x r2 x length = 215 ml (conversion made to change inches to centimeters)
This is the volume of a 0.468 inch bore down the length of the leadpipe into the valve casing:
V = pi x r2 x length = 226 ml (conversion made to change inches to centimeters)
So the difference between the medium bore and large bore used in this example is 11 ml.
Your lungs vital capacity is 500 ml and when taking in a breath to play a maximum blow is at 5,000 ml.
So just playing your horn without the need to take in an extra breath (using that 500 ml of air) means that the demand of the volume of lung air to "fill the large bore horn" is only (500 ml - 11 ml)/500 ml = or only 2% of your lung's vital capacity to increase the air filling of a large bore trumpet over a medium bore trumpet.
If you still think you are working harder filling your large bore horn with air, then please, schedule an appointment with me at my new medical practice at Western Medicine, LLC in Enon, Ohio, because I need to seriously start a work up for lung disease.
@ROWUK said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
Simply, NO. it is not the bore that needs air. It is the resistance and that has nothing to do with the bore.
Thanks Rowuk. I've been trying to convince others on this thread but they all seem to be reluctant to appreciate the physics of a propagating sound wave through various materials. I guess my having a PhD in quantum chemistry doesn't qualify me, but your understanding of Trumpet physics truly blends with my training in wave forms.
The simple observation that if it was air transmission dependent, we would not be hearing the sound until seconds after a note was played. I hope people reflect on these concepts as I do feel this understanding can enhance the performance we get from our horns.
@flugelgirl said in Flugel case:
You could try a Torpedo Coyote with the snarl lid - works for my Adams F2 which is quite large. If you contact them they can tell you if it will fit.
I have this one and it works great!
@Richard-III said in Could you have a metal allergy?:
I can't seem to find any reference that indicates the instant reaction that has been described when sensitive to a mouthpiece metal. Can anyone point me to that? Further I can't find any reference to pain or other neurological reaction that has been described. I'm curious about the mechanism of this. Thanks.
Nickle allergy is a "contact dermatitis" and can sometimes appear and confused for poison ivy. This therefore requires a repeat exposure, then sensitization of the immune response. Once sensitization is processed, then the rash goes from gradual to very rapid response.
I have seen this in my practice related more to body piercing and ear rings. The symptoms (as noted above) of chronic exposure (when wearing the metal) are even more impressive. Eliminating the contact is the obvious treatment, and I found substituting the metal (or moving to a higher quality product not including Ni) is still an alternative such that jewelry may still be used.
I try to avoid use of steroid in cartilaginous areas (such as the ear) but in non-cartilaginous areas a steroid cream can be used to heal the blisters faster for the metal change to then be made. For the ear, I find just using mineral oil will help as well without risk of damaging cartilage.
So for most trumpet players that will heal the rash, a topical steroid would work... but if you play by ear... maybe not?
@Tobylou8 said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
Yep, the air moves or you can't play the horn. Take a simple cheap Bach practice mute, insert into the bell and play. As you play, place your finger over the hole in the end. The air cannot flow through the horn and all sound stops, and if you're playing loudly, your ears may pop!
Nope... Air travels much more slowly than the vibratory wave.