@Kehaulani said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
So, if I buy a medium-bore Getzen and a large-bore Getzen, and a medium-bore Schilke and a large-bore Schilke, will the medium-bore horns be have certain characteristics that separate them from their large-bore counterparts?
So this IS for sure: If you buy both a medium and large-bore Getzen AND Schilke, the companies of Getzen and Schilke will definitely profit!
@Dr-Mark said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
... Just rubber lips or rubber bladder ...
Dr.Mark
This is punishable by imprisonment in many cities (except for Las Vegas of course).
@Dr-Mark said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
...but to apply them to whether or not a person can "feel" the difference between large and medium bore trumpets might be. The ability to fill one's lungs with air vs the air needed to excite the air molecules inside a trumpet might not be comparable.
Dr.Mark
And to this I also agree. The feeling one has relates more to resistance not volume.
@Kehaulani said in Do you see what I see??:
...Ever try to transcribe a bass line an octave a complete octave LOWER? 
I would NEVER stoop that low!
@Kehaulani said in glad there's no fighting here:
Oh, yeah? **** you, Moshe!
And I *** you too Kehaulani!*
*Of course **** in Hawaiian means LOVE
Moshe...
I so agree with you. I really get the feeling with the dynamics that this administrator has created that this site supports a highly functional family.
I have also observed that differences of opinion are discussed and conveyed in such absolute respect that others; reading such differences actually learn from the professionalism of the debate.
Many kudos for the Administrator. It is well appreciated!
@Dr-Mark said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
Hi Dr-GO,
...when discussing does a large bore trumpet take more air. In my opinion, it does.
Dr.Mark
Now my last personal reflection from this last quote response.
I have been practicing medicine for over 27 years, 31 years if you count my residency training. I am known nationally as a National Cystic Fibrosis Foundation leader and have been providing care for these patients, most with with severe obstructive pulmonary disease. The Foundation so recognizes my level of expertise that they have hired me to travel around the country to certify their over 127 clinical centers in the United States. In addition, I have been teaching lung function in the pulmonary module at the Boonshoft School of Medicine for over a decade.
Now with that introduction as to my experience in recognizing lung function, let me relate my 27 yeas of experience to what patients with obstructive pulmonary disease feel due to loss of air when they begin to experience an exacerbation of their disease. They do not even complain they are short of breath until their lung function falls below 15% of their baseline. So one of my patients with a baseline 80% lung function feels short of breath when the get to 68%. However, it is also true that one of my more end stage patients that have baseline function around 20% will feel short of breath when they fall to 3% (which is 15% of their baseline) as they just have no reserve due to scarring.
If you review my calculation above, the difference in a medium bore and large bore is just 2% difference of a normal persons' tidal lung volume. There is no physiological way from my 27+ years of medical practice and experience that I can say that a 2% difference will give an individual the sensation that this loss feels to them they have more work of breathing. Even my CF patient with a 20% baseline lung function wouldn't feel it as they don't complain of shortness of breath until the drop to 17%.
So I hope people reading this thread can appreciate and understand there is just no way for a human to feel that more air is needed for just a 2% difference in air volume. No way!
@Dr-Mark said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
My experience has been that a large bore trumpet is a little harder to play than a medium bore trumpet and the trumpet players that have tried my trumpets (large bore) did not care for them and preferred medium bore trumpets instead.
Dr.Mark
So on this point, I had never made such a correlation. Now that I have a few more years of experience under my belt, let me relate some of my own personal experience.
REFLECTION 1:
My Harrelson Summit is a much larger bore than my medium bore Martin Committee. My Committee played effortless for me (it was the horn I used when you heard me in Pittsburgh). HOWEVER my Harrelson, with a larger bore (I can fit my Committee's second valve slide into the Harrelson and add a toothpick into the gap) AND weighs like an anvil plays even more effortlessly than the Committee. The Harrelson glides in and out of high to low octave like my 427 hp Camaro SS shifts flawlessly into overdrive! So from my perspective with this response, it is the efficiency of the Harrelson, not the bore difference that causes the difference in feel.
REFLECTION 2:
My Getzen Eterna flugelhorn has a .460 bore size. My Kanstul 1526 flugelhron has a 0.421 bore size. Man does that Getzen play so open and easy compared to the Kanstul. This is why I still use the Getzen for outdoor concerts. It projects greater and is less tiring to play when I have to put more volume into the horn.
@Dr-Mark said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
Hi Dr-GO,
The question would be, why does it take more effort? according to Bach's web site. There are a lot of variables to consider such as where the braces are placed, the metal used, taper of the mouthpipe, bell size and construction, etc.... Is it a function of resistance? It very well may be...
Dr.Mark
Dr. Mark, to all of this I do agree, and thanks so much for being so open to this discussion as I hope our instruction is helping others.
Please do look for more of my quotes of your reply so I can address distinct issues.
@moshe said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
The Conn 5A and the Conn 9A are identical,
but Conn Loyalist says that the Conn 9A has the feel of a larger bore.
I have owned 5 Conn 5A and 3 Conn 9A,
and I can verify that the Conn 9A demands more air
although it is the same bore size and wrap as a Conn 5A.
All interchangeable parts.
Only difference is Copper versus Brass.Morris / moshe
BINGO!
@flugelgirl said in Can Playing with Musicians Out of Tune Give You a Headache?:
Interesting question. I know that if I have to listen to or play with others that are extremely out of tune it gives me a headache, but it’s a tension headache from grinding my teeth. One of the many reasons I repair instead of teach!
Stress triggering tension itself is the most common cause of headache, and flugelgirl, I believe you have identified the most likely reason for this headache response!
@Dr-Mark said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
@Dr-GO said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
Hi Dr-GO,
You stated;
But I am not sure we really feel that additional volume of air we put in to the horn. See my above calculations. Can we really feel an 11 ml difference (that is just two rounded teaspoons of air)? The physics of the process, just filling the air does not add up. What we are feeling is the resistance from all the other components you mentioned your above post. That is what gives us the feeling of working harder.Yes, just that little bit of extra air needed to kick start a large bore trumpet is noticeable. My experience is that the feeling of "working harder" is because there's too much effort (tension) being used to get the job done. This can be due to the horn being out of tune with itself, fatigue, or improper playing technique. Most of the time, it's a matter of blowing too hard to get the job done. A correlation to how sensitive humans are to different bore sizes would be intonation. If something is out of tune just a few cents, we can hear it.
As for the physics, as we've discussed before, the trumpet is a known system for at least the last 100 years and basically we create a standing wave "inside" the trumpet and the lips oscillate sympathetically.
You have to admit, whether its large or small or medium bore, making music with plumbing isn't for sissies.
Dr.Mark
Dr. Mark, 11 ml is just 2% of our resting lung volume. How can anyone feel this? I believe it is more of a mental feeling because it sure is not a physical physiological feeling. Medically speaking, one cannot feel a 2% change for a change in lung volume to fill a void. Again, if there is the feeling of more air needed, it is a function of resistance, due to the mental perception of increasing the air flow to match that of another instrument, and not the actual volume of air.
@Niner said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
Rowuk touched upon the mouthpiece. The 7C standard issue mouthpiece with student horns....at least in my day..as the happy medium mouth piece of the one fits all class. When I was a kid in the 6th grade and learning the teacher suggested a 10 1/2 C. That was a mouthpiece for a child with a child's face and lips making up a kids embouchure. As I got older and ..bigger... I found that a mouthpiece with a wider and deeper cup was more comfortable for playing. Today I feel most comfortable with a 3C no matter what horn of the many I've collected that I pick up. It would seem to me...... and I'm no scientist nor accomplished musician..... that the mouthpiece seems the most important factor in how comfortable a horn is to play.
I believe the mouthpiece IS an important quality to how the trumpet at the other end feels in response to resistance. And I cannot deny that the cup is indeed a factor. But don't forget the back end of the mouthpiece as well.
First there is that gap that helps determine the coordination of the amplitude of the sound wave as it leaves the mouthpiece and enters the leadpipe. If the amplitude hits the leadpipe at it's highest peak, the vibration generated in the metal of the leadpipe is optimized, enhancing the efficiency of the transmitted sound wave.
Also there is the throat aperture that directly influences resistance experienced on a horn. I can give you an example of this in my experience with the Jettone Studio B produced by Jettone in the 1970's AND the Harrelson 5 mm Jettone copy that I use on my Harrelson. The standard Jettone Studio B does cause notes to bottom out as one fatigues with high range playing over time, due to playing on such a shallow cup. I would personally experience hitting air-balls as a complication towards the end of the gig. That has NEVER happened to me with the Harrelso 5 mm. Why? The rim is the same, the cup is the same through precision machining at the Harrelson factory. The ONLY difference is with the 5 mm, you can fit into the main piece any throat size desired. I have a wider throat on the Harrelson Jettone copy than the original, and man, talk about resistance free playing! I have yet to bottom out on my high range playing with that throat in place over the 2+ years that I have been playing lead gigs on that horn.
I received an email question from a musician that I would like to share with this group. Here is the context and the question:
"[A] guitar player was grossly out of tune. The way I was positioned on the stage allowed one of my ears to be pointed toward a monitor and the other ear pointed toward the audience... The sensation in the ear that was pointed toward the monitor "felt different" than the ear that was pointing toward the audience. This makes me wonder if there is more of a biological/acoustical component to the headaches people get from listening to out of tune performances and its not just tension headaches. Could it be that the cilia react in a way that displeasing when exposed to frequencies that are dissonant? Is it the way the frequencies hit the eardrum?"
I have never experience such a complaint in my medical practice so I did a PubMed search and found no articles specific to musical intonation and headaches; however, I am sure band conductors can be driven to headaches though when members play out of tune during a performance.
With that said, I actually did find an article that did note that hearing differences related to tinnitus or sensorineural hearing impairment (difference between hearing quality of ears) is linked to headaches with a 12.2% increase in headaches in patients with this disorder compared to 5.5% in patients with headache without this disorder. I am providing the link below to that abstract. So it just may be possible that some individuals may be prone to headaches by a neurological trigger stimulated by listening to out of tune performers within an ensemble.
My request to readers of this thread is to please do let me know if any of you have experienced this effect.
Here is the link:
https://www-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov.ezproxy.libraries.wright.edu/pubmed/30003226
@Dr-Mark said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
Since the size of the bore determines the volume of breath required, it will also affect the timbre.
In increasing size, bores are described as "medium bore," "medium-large bore," or "large bore." The smaller the bore, the less breath is required, resulting in an instrument that is easier to play and which boasts a subtle, mellow timbre. A larger bore requires more breath and produces a rich, flamboyant timbre and a higher volume.
Hope this helps
Dr.Mark
But I am not sure we really feel that additional volume of air we put in to the horn. See my above calculations. Can we really feel an 11 ml difference (that is just two rounded teaspoons of air)? The physics of the process, just filling the air does not add up. What we are feeling is the resistance from all the other components you mentioned your above post. That is what gives us the feeling of working harder.
Always great to have you hear to gave sound (pun intended) philosophical discussions.
@BigDub said in A little humour:
Ticket prices were higher this year for the balloon festival due to inflation
Sounds to me more like a lot of hot air!
Flugelgirl, interesting that we posted at the same time. Actually you were about 10 seconds ahead of me. So I do sound a bit repetitive to your post but I totally agree with you. Great minds, right?
@Kehaulani said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
So, if I buy a medium-bore and a large-bore from Kanstul, I would not find the large-bore harder on my endurance and other perimeters at the end of a night's gig? They would have the same result?
That cannot be a given. Remember, as Rowuk says, there ARE other characteristics of horns that changes the resistance. If that large-bore Kanstul is designed with efficiency in it's bracing and slides bends, then perhaps, but you just don't know unless you try them together,
@Richard-III said in Could you have a metal allergy?:
Thanks for all the info.
Richard-III you are so welcome. Hope all does work out for your current mouthpiece. If you do notice any of the symptoms starting, one option is gold plating. Gold chops does this for $35. I think it would be worth the try as gold has a great feel and less of a chance of developing a contact dermatitis. Plastic mouthpieces would be an alternative.
@administrator said in Could you have a metal allergy?:
I would reach out to Dr. Bergman with any questions you might have. He is a personal friend of mine, a fine trumpeter and our next ITG President. I trust his word.
I am Board Certified in Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, was the President of the Medicine-Pediatrics Residency Association, have a National Teaching Award named after me (The Gary Onady Award) published Evidence-based Systematic Reviews on allergy reactions AND am a member of the American Federation of Musicians (very proud of that one). So what am I, chopped liver?
I see and have personally cared for and treated nickel allergies (more related to jewelry) for over 30 years in my medical practice. The case you posted is a clear presentation of long duration, repeat exposure to nickel which is commonly seen in a medical practice. So any individual can additionally reach out to me through this thread, as a member of TrumpetBoards. But I ask you to judge for yourselves if you feel my above discussions are on point.
Please do read our disclaimer. I do ask that you first reach out personally to your own physician and then have that physician contact me if they have additional questions. I will provide the background and medical recommendations that physicians' will need. I serve as a consultant to United Healthcare and the American College of Physicians to produce such educational materials for physicians and patients.