Frustrated
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My experience with a couple of message boards of my own making is that if your site is popular enough to attract a lot of high ego judgmental people .... and trumpet sites do that.... there needs to be moderation quick and sure on three overriding rules to keep peace.
One: Allow no insulting or disparaging post directed at anybody participating in the board and particularly people who have no way of defending them selves that used to belong or who are at other boards now.
Two: Do not allow any post that would disparage any other site, existing now or not.
Three: If a post or string is deleted there should be no further discussion about it allowed.
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@Niner said in Frustrated:
If a post or string is deleted there should be no further discussion about it allowed.
Two thumbs up!
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@OldSchoolEuph said in Frustrated:
@mafields627 said in Frustrated:
TBH, I wish that TH was actually more heavily moderated. A lot of great posters (pros and knowledgeable amateurs) have left because stuff was allowed to go too far.
Are you sure none of them left because they got tired of putting time and effort into creating detailed and informative posts that would serve those who googled the topic years later, only to see that effort obliterated because someone didn't like something someone said later in the thread?
I can't speak to every situation, but I have seen pro-level posters comment on leaving because of the attacks directed at them by people who really have no credentials. That is not to say, however, that people haven't left because of the moderation. Maybe those people posted about it and I missed it or maybe they just simply stopped posting.
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@Niner
Right now the ghosts of Locke, Madison, Jay, De Tocqueville, Orwell and Huxley are thanking whatever exists after this life that they did not live to see this. -
@OldSchoolEuph said in Frustrated:
He who controls the press controls the truth ....
I take time and effort to post content that might be of use to others ....
Censorship is transforming in an Orwellian manner more and more these days into a "defense" of free speech. Surely a community of musicians can find a better way.
I agree with OldSchoolEuph, that it can be frustrating when content is deleted. But I acknowledge that the admins (both here and on TH) have a tough job. I also think OldSchoolEuph's example about Kanstul is valid. Kastul was a common whipping boy on TH, where defamatory remarks often went unchallenged. But after Kanstul shut down, TH took the opposite approach, and began deleting these remarks. However, TH sill allows rude and defamatory remarks about other common targets.
But in the end, while I don't always agree with the admins' choices, I respect their efforts. And while I don't know which thread is in question here, let me add a couple comments, that reflect my view about deleting content.
This is not the "press". This are no the first-amendment issues here. There is no censorship here. We are in TB's house (so to speak), and we live by TB's rules. The same would be true, if you visited my home.
In social medial, the users create free content, which within certain guidelines, the forum exploits as it sees fit. In other words, the forum doesn't exist to serve us, we exist to serve the forum.
Mike
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@OldSchoolEuph said in Frustrated:
@Niner
Right now the ghosts of Locke, Madison, Jay, De Tocqueville, Orwell and Huxley are thanking whatever exists after this life that they did not live to see this.I liked your trumpet history site. Do you still maintain it? Haven't looked in a while.
As to freedom of speech you seem to refer to...or maybe the denial of freedom of speech... message boards aren't late night talk shows or journalistic rantings belching out various condemnations or preaching alternate political or moral correctness like a variety of cable news shows. Message boards are about limited subjects with rules and regulation to focus conversations that are somewhat channeled to produce civil discussion among interested people. If there are no regulated boundaries you don't have freedom you have anarchy. In message board anarchy you soon see various groups form and then it becomes dangerous for any new member to come along and expect to remain long unmolested if stating anything contrary to the strongest group.
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@Niner
Despite its early-90s appearance, trumpet-history.com is maintained. The virtual museum has grown by a number of interesting examples in the last few months including a lightweight 22B early, finally a decent picture of a King 3B, an Olds Military, a Holton Herriot, a Holton slide cornet from the 20s that I cannot find in catalogs, and a NY wrap early Mt.V 37 with a one of a kind Autrey pipe.The piece on what is happening at the Bach plant from 2 years ago remains relevant as well, though who knows what will happen in days to come as the fake Bachs continue to damage the brand and now Tedd has retired too. Still, one of the better, and newer, reads on the site in my opinion.
No argument that the owner of the site has every right to do as he pleases, but if the goal is to create a place for exchange of ideas and sharing of information with those seeking it, it then becomes a challenge for the host to moderate in moderation. The owner of a site can use it like Getty used his newspapers, as a King-maker (or in that example, destroyer), if that is his goal. I have not had the impression that that was remotely the case here.
There is a difference between maintaining civility and suppression of ideas/information. I started this thread with an observation that was nothing more than. As I learned of the thread that triggered the particular notice, I came to understand the moderator's action. I intended this thread more as a conceptual discussion than a protest of any specific.
www.trumpet-history.com
A Timeline of Trumpets (Amazon)
2017 AustinWinds Stage466
1962 Mt.V Bach 43
1954 Holton 49
1927 Conn 22B NYS
1957 Holton 27 Stratodyne
1986 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 -
I mean, I can restore the thread if that really is an issue. I just didn't have the time to sort through it all! Give me some time tonight or this weekend and I can get it back up.
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Also, I am the sole owner of the domain / site. So...that means I can literally do whatever I want with it and the content. Not trying to drive anybody away, just saying.
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@administrator said in Frustrated:
I mean, I can restore the thread if that really is an issue. I just didn't have the time to sort through it all! Give me some time tonight or this weekend and I can get it back up.
Please do not on my account. As I just posted moments ago, I was seeking a conceptual discourse, not to resurrect what sounds like an example of moderation in moderation (now that I know the details). I was posting as you were I think. I believe you will find my last post inline with your latest.
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@OldSchoolEuph said in Frustrated:
No argument that the owner of the site has every right to do as he pleases, but if the goal is to create a place for exchange of ideas and sharing of information with those seeking it, it then becomes a challenge for the host to moderate in moderation. The owner of a site can use it like Getty used his newspapers, as a King-maker (or in that example, destroyer), if that is his goal. I have not had the impression that that was remotely the case here.
There is a difference between maintaining civility and suppression of ideas/information. I started this thread with an observation that was nothing more than. As I learned of the thread that triggered the particular notice, I came to understand the moderator's action. I intended this thread more as a conceptual discussion than a protest of any specific.
Well said.
Mike
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This post is deleted! -
So, I have never "owned" a forum before. It is an interesting, and, for the most part, rewarding experience. Overwhelmingly, I leave things as posted. I usually delete information that has many expletives, spam or nudity / pornography. I only deleted that thread because several people were arguing and I received probably 4 or 5 chats complaining about it.
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Just a general comment regarding thread censorship: Keep in mind that we would also like to attract younger members and that some profanity or personal attacks can be a deterrent to joining the forum.
I have certainly used colourful language in my time, but I also considered who my audience was. In that regard, I think some restraint should be shown and when it's not, then to be removed. We won't always agree on the outcome, or lack thereof, but the Moderators have a fairly arbitrary job.
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@Kehaulani said in Frustrated:
Keep in mind that we would also like to attract younger members
YES! I'd very much like to see younger members posing questions that we can help them with. That would be cool! That would be worthwhile.
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@Dr-Mark said in Frustrated:
@Kehaulani said in Frustrated:
Keep in mind that we would also like to attract younger members
YES! I'd very much like to see younger members posing questions that we can help them with. That would be cool! That would be worthwhile.
I would very much like to see more young trumpet players period
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@administrator said in Frustrated:
I mean, I can restore the thread if that really is an issue. I just didn't have the time to sort through it all! Give me some time tonight or this weekend and I can get it back up.
You did the right thing. Sometimes you just have to cut a thread loose.
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Moderation is in fact a double edged sword. On the one side, posting shows us the character of the poster - a measure by which we can decide what is worth reading. Postings also generate context that gets lost when things disappear. I agree that the best way is to "edit" the offense, clearly label the edit with the name of who edited and why. Deleting complete posts is on occasion necessary because of the content.
My experience at TrumpetMaster with PMing offenders was not generally positive (exceptions proving the rule). For someone with no sense of what freedom of speech costs, you cannot teach them this online. Often it is better to part ways.
After TrumpetMaster went down (with no warning or first hand information to this date), I reviewed my online activity and decided that I would not jump in to any new forum with the same "attitude". Some here surely welcome this. To be honest, I have found no trumpet forum where I "take home" as much as I invest. There are other forums where we stretch the envelope however. The mix of users is different, with less casual approaches to the technology. This is where my energy is going these days. Here, I am very content to browse and occasionally post - without repeating myself as much as I did at TrumpetMaster. I also seem not to be the focus of hate anymore (regardless of the underlying reasons).
In this respect, I too am a bit frustrated, but that is my problem where the trumpet is concerned. I am less interested in entertainment and more interested in what motivates players to take that "next step".
Fortunately, I have no site issues with MacOS and Safari. I am happy that someone decided to run and offer the TMers a new home.
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To me Rowuk was the role model of moderators. Tough love is the best!
Allora Pocket Trumpet 2014
Harrelson Summit 2017
Kanstul 1526 2012
Getzen Power Bore 1961
Getzen Eterna 4-Valve Fulgelhorn 1974
Martin Committee 1946
Olds Super Recording 1940
Olds Recording (LA) 1953
Olds Recording (Fullerton) 1967
Olds Ambassador 1965 -
@ROWUK said in Frustrated:
Moderation is in fact a double edged sword. On the one side, posting shows us the character of the poster - a measure by which we can decide what is worth reading. Postings also generate context that gets lost when things disappear. I agree that the best way is to "edit" the offense, clearly label the edit with the name of who edited and why. Deleting complete posts is on occasion necessary because of the content.
A moderator doesn't decide what is worth reading based on his surmise of the posters character. He doesn't decide what is worth reading at all. That's not his job...or shouldn't be. His job is to make judgements on posts as to staying within site guidelines of civil discourse. Furthermore no poster wants to read his handle with an explanation of why he has fallen short of community standards and had his comment deleted either. Delete without comment, if necessary, is the way to play it.
There are no umpire explanations in baseball. Either the ball is a strike or a ball. When a player strikes out he is out. When someone defames someone at a message board, intentionally or in the heat of argument, his post should be deleted without comment. Moderation is a matter of exercised judgement according to site rules and not something more complicated than that and all "players" should accept that fact in order to get on the playing field. And...there should be no one above the rules.. or given special dispensation to exceed guidelines others must accept.
