1970 Bach 43 elusive high G#
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I have trouble securely landing on high G# with my 1970 Bach 43. Same issue whether the interval is narrow or wide.
How can I determine whether this is me or the horn? -
@JWM The only way to know if it is you is to have someone way better than you play the horn.
I would say the chances are 99.999% that it is you. There are essentially NEVER any notes missing unless there is a leak and then it is not "a" high notes that get s lost, rather usually in the lower octave. -
@JWM
If you’re referring to the G# on top of the staff, I used to have trouble with it too. I had no trouble with the Ab, though, so in my case, it was a mental problem. It may sound silly, but try thinking Ab and see if that helps. -
@Dale-Proctor
Thanks Dale. I’ll give that a try. -
@ROWUK
ROWUK, thanks for the response. I think it is likely I’m the problem. I’ll keep working on it. Any recommendations are appreciated. -
You know where every note on the horn is because you've played them so many times. For me G# doesn't come up very often. So my knowing is weak. Play it a bunch and gain the knowing of what it feels like.
Think of all the things that have to line up to play a certain note. That's a lot to coordinate. Another note for me is high C#. I have no clue where that is.
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@JWM Thanks Richard III. That makes sense. I’ll make that part of my practice routine until it becomes “natural.”
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@JWM The #1 reason for range just stopping at a specific note is too much damn pressure.
A buzz is nothing more than the lips opening and closing at a certain frequency. If we apply large amounts of arm pressure to the embouchure, we need far more air pressure to blow the lips apart. That is not a very responsive system!
In my view, the easiest way to break this habit is to turn the testosterone down. Play ONLY very, very softly for a couple of weeks and focus on the air doing the work. Overdose on pianissimo lipslurs and long tones. Practice to get the sound to start on a wisp of air.
Generally, it takes only a lesson or two to get students doing this reliably. The biggest problem with a social media recommendation is that body use can not be controlled. If someones body is twisted into knots, a big relaxed breath is a challenging thing. Exhaling also becomes a real chore.
My full view is in several posts that I made called "the circle of breath". This is a collection of things from many disciplines. Google it and if there is something unclear, just ask.
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@ROWUK Too much pressure is surely part of my problem. I’ve made progress in posture, inhale and “exhaling”. I find that I must change my lip position and trumpet position to generate a note. Is that appropriate?
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@JWM If ROWUK says so, it usually is true.
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@JWM said in 1970 Bach 43 elusive high G#:
@ROWUK Too much pressure is surely part of my problem. I’ve made progress in posture, inhale and “exhaling”. I find that I must change my lip position and trumpet position to generate a note. Is that appropriate?
What is appropriate is whatever works. "More" appropriate are the things that most likely prevent failure in the future. If you have summer band concerts, it is tough to make changes and maintain any specific level of playing.
I do not advocate changing the position of the mouthpiece while playing. If we are practicing enough of the right things, lip flexibilities/lip slurs will provide all of the embouchure tension skills that we need. Getting rid of Armstrong is usually the biggest challenge. As I previously wrote: "A buzz is nothing more than the lips opening and closing at a certain frequency. If we apply large amounts of arm pressure to the embouchure, we need far more air pressure to blow the lips apart. That is not a very responsive system!" This means that better breathing does not fix ANYTHING if it is not coupled to embouchure habits. In my world, breathing is an integral part of the embouchure and should be practiced in context (an example is the "circle of breath"). My goal is not a six-pack in our face and an industrial level compressor with the lungs. It is fine motor activity of the embouchure balanced by "just enough" air pressure.
Remember, humans are creatures of habit and we are what we repeatedly do! This is why lessons with a qualified teacher are so important - to build a consistent foundation and confidence in that process. It takes thousands of repetitions for something to become a habit. I have met students however, that have a natural talent for structure. They do not need as much "nudging" as others that have to work very hard for everything.
Practicing in an unstructured way builds habits too - unreliability, uncertainty and frustration.
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Make ROWUKs words your bible. This last post by him is gospel if ever there was a trumpet gospel.
Yes to "What is appropriate is whatever works"
Yes to " My goal is not a six-pack in our face and an industrial level compressor with the lungs"
These are the golden nuggets that we should use as a foundation to our beliefs.
Add to that others great advice such as "All we have is our sound" always always always work on your tone make it the most beautiful humanly possible by using ROWUKS words "What is appropriate is whatever works"
Read every other post of ROWUK the man knows what he is talking about.
I have reached many of the same conclusions as he states in here but it has taken me a very long time to reach that position.
Read absorb digest his words and become all the better as a performer for the doing of that.
Trumpets
Besson New creation 1924
Besson New Creation Large Bore 1948
Besson New Creation Medium Bore Modele Francaise 1948
Olds Ambassador LA model 1948
Selmer Invicta with french rim
Cornets
Conn 80A 1953
Conn 80A 1965
Yamaha 2330 -
@Trumpetb said in 1970 Bach 43 elusive high G#:
Make ROWUKs words your bible. This last post by him is gospel if ever there was a trumpet gospel.
Yes to "What is appropriate is whatever works"
Yes to " My goal is not a six-pack in our face and an industrial level compressor with the lungs"
These are the golden nuggets that we should use as a foundation to our beliefs.
Add to that others great advice such as "All we have is our sound" always always always work on your tone make it the most beautiful humanly possible by using ROWUKS words "What is appropriate is whatever works"
Read every other post of ROWUK the man knows what he is talking about.
I have reached many of the same conclusions as he states in here but it has taken me a very long time to reach that position.
Read absorb digest his words and become all the better as a performer for the doing of that.
Thanks for the flowers, but I stand on the shoulders of giants. Nothing I post is originally mine. It is all part of Arban, Irons, Stamp, Schlossberg, St. Jacome, Clarke and many others as well as practicing things like meditation, yoga and Feldenkrais.
I firmly believe that every person has a "different" entry point and finding that is my #1 priority when starting a student. Building vocabulary is the #2 step. Learning what I mean by integration is the critical part. As babies, we do all of the basics of posture, motion and breathing naturally. Once we start going to school, we start to lose these abilities and "break" our bodies in small steps. By the time we get to high school, we slouch, have back and neck tension as well as many other symptoms of our "bad behavior". Some people start to excercise, get therapy, turn vegan in hopes that things will get better. They seldom do because the "core evil" is not the symptom of pain or decreased ability to move, it is a learned reduction in integration of mind and body. That in turn leads to many pathological things.
In my view, when we are looking for a solution to something, we must identify the "root evil". As everybody with upper back pain has learned, treating the pain by massage or medicine is at best a very temporary reduction. Getting the coordination of the skeleton, muscles and mind back would be the best solution, but what specialist can you go to that offers that type of integration? In traditional medicine, there are basically none and Yoga as it is most commonly practiced, is a sports activity not a holistic thing. Many of the best other possibilities are considered too esoteric and therefore, we are all stuck with whatever ails us.
My approach to teaching trumpet is by integration. We need to leverage at the most basic level to be able to build good habits. Neck tension could kill a lesson on double or triple tonguing. Emotional tension severely limits our ability to turn airflow into music.
We are creatures of habit and our development is based on a system of rewards. That is why I say what works is the first definition of appropriate. Accomplishment->Satisfaction->Desire to repeat. This is how embouchure pressure develops. In our early developmental stages, pressure works and encourages further similar behavior. Replacing that with something that in the end MAY be better, is difficult because when trying to change habits, we have many things competing in our brains. Many times we only have lessons in the part of the year where we are performing. That means that we need to focus on what works, we have no time for addressing deeper issues that get worse before they get better!So, if there were any words that I think would be most helpful, they are not for the physical level, they would deal with the mind and leveraging our reward system. If a high G# is hard, then do not keep trying to "hit it". Leave it alone for 4 weeks and build supportive habits (integration breath and embouchure) that ultimately could uncap blockage for an octave more than that. That is not 3 posts and an online 30 minute lesson.
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That all being said, I did recommend an overdose of very, very quiet longtones and lipslurs. To enhance those exercizes, take a 10 minute hot shower right before hand to get as relaxed as possible. To not use the tongue to get the tone started - just exhale into the tone or slur. Read the circle of breath first.
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@JWM Before you make the radical changes in your playing try a rounded crook. The Bach third valve slide is too long. I believe you'll have better results in a shorter amount of time.
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There speaks a humble man
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Relax. Don't fight it. Open the airway as much as possible (that comes from relaxing). I find also touching the tip of the tongue to your upper incisors helps physically relax an open airway just prior to calling up the note.
Finally, my range has become most consistent and accurate when I "hear" the note in my mind that I am going for and then aim to that heard note. More mental relaxation when you can feel what you are going for. Also have my diaphragm loaded to provide the air support so my lips do not have to do any extra work, and this helps mentally as well.
Bottom line, match the mind with a relaxed body, and the high notes will happen, with accuracy and without fatiguing as you continue.
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@ROWUK Thanks ROWUK. I've started the long tones, being very conscious of relaxing and releasing the air with as little pressure as possible. I fortunately have no performance commitments and so have the opportunity to be intentional about building new habits. While my initial question was about the intonation of a particular note on one of my horns, your comments have highlighted an issue with poor tonal resonance in the high G to high D range, among other things. It's pretty clear to me that the arm pressure and intense lip compression has been working against me. I am looking forward to working toward "easier" playing and I have already had some glimpses of the eventual outcome.
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@Vulgano-Brother I am not sure what you mean by a "rounded crook". Can you elaborate?
