Tough Decision to make

[administrator]

I'm looking to get back into trumpet. I really want to do it, this time. It's been more than 7 years and I'm antsy to play again.

I am now doing much better, financially speaking, than I have in the past. I am very grateful to be where I am. I want to buy myself a nice horn. I'm torn between two.

I have been thinking of picking up a Blackburn or a Yamaha Chicago. Both are great and a used Blackburn is about the same price as a new Yamaha. The Blackburn is a "dream" horn I have always wanted since I was in high school. When I went to ITG conferences, Blackburn was there and I always liked their horns the best.

Now, however, Yamaha has been producing some crazy good horns. Last time I played one I was just stunned with how good it is. This is the new YTR-9335CHS I think is the model.

The other thing is, too, that when I was in college I was 100% classical. I wanted to be an orchestral guy. That didn't happen but I still love music and want to maybe branch out, be more versatile.

So now, I am torn. Do I go for a custom, boutique "dream" horn, or the solidly reliable Yamaha?

[barliman2001]

@administrator IMHO, you should go for something that will really represent you as a musical individual. I've got nothing against Yammies; but I am repulsed by their predictable, reliable sameness. Many people like that; but for me, it just means that you are predictable and not an individual. That is why I have given up on new horns altogether. There was a time when I had a full set of Stomvis (Bb, C, D/Eb, picc) and really liked them; but then, I happened upon a 1940s Buescher Aristocrat, with the result that I now play the Buescher, and an old Courtois for a D, and a 1970s Besson for an Eb, and the Stomvis had to go on. With these old horns, I always got the feeling that somehow I am continuing tradition, that somehow those guys who played these hooters before me are still alive in their horns...
As to getting yourself an instrument - you can't go wrong with, say, an Olds Recording or Studio (have both - can be used anywhere.) Or you can go for a 1980s Selmer or Courtois... the possibilities are endless. Get yourself a cheap solid horn first to get back into shape - Olds Ambassador, or a 4000 series Yammie, or a Stomvi Forte, or an intermediate Getzen - and then work up until you are back to being able to say which horn you now want and what is suitable for you. IME, as soon as you are ready for it, the right horn will find you. It's not the other way round.

[GeorgeB]

@administrator

I have some great horns in my collection. Each has its own characteristics that I love, but one stands out amongs them all, and that is the 1940 Olds Recording I added recently. Whatever kind of music, from classical to country, you want to play, the Olds just gets the job done. I know this sounds crazy, but it is as it plays itself and you are just along for the ride.
George

[Kehaulani]

A word about individualism. First a caveat. I have always been, at heart, an improvising jazz musician. And my related equipment has usually been compatible with that aesthetic.
But if I was playing a predominantly orchestral and small-group music with some detours playing "Pops" repertoire, my choice in an instrument would not be the same.

Today's classical music (American) has certain expectations in sound and equipment. Yamaha and Bach with some side excursions to Schilke et al.

If you are primarily looking to playing in large, classically oriented and related ensembles, one of your considerations is how you blend with the other players and there is an understanding of what that is.

I do not know Blackburns, but regarding that, or any other horn, I would consider your goals and expectations, as well as the expectations of your colleagues and musical directors in making your selection.

[administrator]

These are all great responses. I think I may take a trip to our friend Jamie's gallery, or perhaps Austin Custom Brass and find my "dream" horn there.

The point about Yamaha's being all the same is duly noted. However, part of the reason I like them so much is how easy they are to play. I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of "character" in my sound in order to make playing easier. I don't practice enough these days to muscle through all the quirks of a horn. Get my drift?

The other thing with a Yamaha is you can buy one, sight-unseen, used or new, off the Internet and worry about nothing. I don't feel this way about any other brand except for perhaps the boutique brands like Blackburn, Monette, etc.

[administrator]

@georgeb said in Tough Decision to make:

@administrator

I have some great horns in my collection. Each has its own characteristics that I love, but one stands out amongs them all, and that is the 1940 Olds Recording I added recently. Whatever kind of music, from classical to country, you want to play, the Olds just gets the job done. I know this sounds crazy, but it is as it plays itself and you are just along for the ride.
George

I don't think that's crazy at all. I have known several people who feel that way about them.

[Trumpetb]

Dreams

They are never where you think they are going to be.

Buying into a dream without seeing if it can become a reality is a recipe for disappointment but contains the seeds of greatness and huge satisfaction.

The Blackburn is your dream and if it is it will be worth every penny expended in the pursuit and more besides.

The Yam is a safe option but safety is often where mediocre lies

I do not want safety I do not want mediocre I do not want security and certainty

I want risk I want hopes I want to have the chance to succeed wonderfully or in the attempt I will take monumental failure and take it gladly

We must aspire to greatness and if we crash and burn in the attempt to attain it then we have tasted greatness and will forever be uplifted by the memory and the experience and therein lies a world of self respect

The Blackburn holds your hopes and dreams and you must pursue them.

[Kehaulani]

"The Yamaha is a safe option but safety is often where mediocre lies."

False assumption.

You want a Blackburn get one.

[barliman2001]

If the Blackburn is your dream horn, by all means get it. But be prepared - your dream horn may become a nightmare.
I'll just tell a few tales from my experience.
Many years back, a corno da caccia was my dream horn. And then, during a historians' conference in Leipzig, I stumbled upon Friedbert Syhre's workshop, and he had one just finished and ready for sale. Silver plated, with gold accents. I talked to my bank manager on the phone for about three hours, and bought it five minutes before the shop closed for the weekend, for something like $ 3,500. I had found my dream horn!
And then I slowly realized I would not be able to use it much. I was not good enough at that time to play the original music written for the corno da caccia, and there were literally no chances at all to use it in orchestra. I played it once or twice in local church orchestras, doubling for French horn. But for more than nine years, it lived a very quiet, secluded life in its case.
Until someone really needed one to replace one stolen during a rehearsal, and I sold it on for less than $ 1,000, just to have it played.

Then, for many years, a Scherzer G picc was my dream horn. I saved all I could for about five years to be able to get a new one, finally bought one; nice horn, loved the sound... found an orchestra that wanted me as a soloist for the Torelli concert and as an orchestral principal trumpet for the Haendelujah (me with the Scherzer) , and I practised like mad, only to overdo things and lapse into pneumonia two weeks before the planned concert... had to take time off to recuperate, by which time the concert had been played by a sub. I used it for some more time, sparingly, until one day, after a playing break of about two weeks, I took it out of its case and the valves were frozen and I could not do anything with them, had to get them repaired and had that reoccur several times. And when Maurice André's will left me a Selmer high-G and I found that easier to play, it went its way to a new owner.
Two or three years after getting the Scherzer, I had acquired a Besson Kanstul 920 picc. Wonderful instrument, and they tell me I sounded really good on it. No problems - except that I had set my mind on a Stomvi. So I sold the Besson in part-exchange. The Stomvi was nice, no doubt about it; but somehow, it was not the instrument for me. I needed much more lip pressure than with the BessonK, put too much hand pressure on the valve cluster and thus got the valves to stick... ! Pic shows me with the BessonK.
I can tell stories like this about many of my dream horns. All of the horns I play now are horns that happened upon me somehow, without me really planning to get them, like my Courtois 154R flugel which I acquired at a trade fair when the Courtois people had a few instruments left over which they did not want to take back with them; so my advice is, don't search for a specific horn, but look around for anything that drifts your way; try, try and try again, and at some time, your dream horn will find you.

[Trumpetb]

I have huge respect for you barliman2001 reading your experiences.

I stand by what I have said.

Yes in chasing dreams we can suffer and I too have suffered in chasing my dreams but I have also enjoyed success in equal measure to the failure.

It has been a wild ride and I would not have missed a moment of it.

We drive things that take us to places and we are driven too not by things but by dreams

Dreams drove the Wright brothers and despite many failures they attained flight

Henry Ford was driven by the dream of cheap transport for all and despite many setbacks he attained that and we have today modern transport

Christopher Columbus was driven by a dream and despite many setbacks he attained the discovery of the new world and the opening up of the americas

Gutenberg was driven by the dream of widespread printing and the result was a global population with access to knowledge and the world as we know it.

Nasa was driven by President Kennedys dream of placing a man on the moon and they suffered many setbacks and attained that goal, and that has created a legacy that still inspires the world to this day.

The greatest achievements of man have come from dreams and the striving for them and we can name a thousand of them.

The greatest disasters of man have come from dreams too I know, but without dreams and the willingness to chase them we humans would still be wearing animal skins and living in caves.

Dreams contain the best and they also contain the worst of us and we can fail easily in the attaining of our dream but that is not I think the real failure.

There is really only one real failure in my opinion, and that is the failure to take our fate in our hands and to chase our dream, and instead to accept something less and then we might spend a lifetime wondering what might have been.

[Kehaulani]

This post is deleted!

[ROWUK]

@administrator
My take on this is perhaps a bit unconventional, but I would insist that between those two horns, it does not matter. Regardless of which on you pick, there will always be something in the back of your mind questioning that choice.
That being said, I do not believe in a lot of this synergy blah. I do not believe that most musicians have a "well formed concept" that would guide them only to specific hardware (a claim that I make as a long time Monette trumpet owner). The musician that concentrates on the music, discovers whatever horn that they have in their hands in a special way. I do use my Monette C trumpet more than any other horn BUT I am not musically "limited" in the orchestra when I play my Selmer, Bach or any other horn. That does not mean that the Monette is not special to me, it only means that when I play, I have no dependencies, no questions in the back of my mind concerning hardware.

So, based on what you have posted, the Blackburn has appealed to you for many more years and the Yamaha discovery is new and has no specific "reasons" except hearsay. If you were my student, I would say play before you pay and would drive with you to wherever to make an informed decision with an extra set of ears that you could trust.

One thing is clear to me, I have many players that I admire and they cover just about every horn one could imagine. That means that the difference is them, not the hardware.

[Trumpetb]

That is so true ROWUK we are often captivated by a single horn and attribute characteristics to it that maintain a reverence for it that is not borne out by the real facts.

What I mean by this is, the sound of a horn is a correlation between the embouchure the players characteristic sound, the mouthpiece used and the instrument itself.

I cannot say how many times that the sound of a horn has been utterly transformed by a mouthpiece change or to a lesser extent an embouchure change or to an even lesser extent a change in my sound concept while playing.

It is often asked which horn will make this sound or that sound or it is asked what horn dizzy or louis or chet or miles played as if we might sound like dizzy on dizzys horn.

No

We can however mould ourselves if given the right guidance and the right mouthpiece to go some way towards achieving the sound that we crave. Or even better our own sound.

We can play mariachi, symphonic, lead, smooth, the instruments are largely limitless if we know what we are doing and if we can match the equipment to ourselves and mould ourselves to the equipment.

chet dispensed with his flugel saying he has no need of it he can sound like a flugel on his trumpet if he chooses to. I am convinced he could easily do that.

But then some horns have that extra something that cannot be emulated by changing mouthpiece or changing the approach.

The best mouthpiece cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear even if it can get very close to it.

Go to horns, are of that type, we simply can do more of what we want and more convincingly and naturally with our go to horn.

I have a modern yamaha a very capable horn but there is something missing that I get with my goto that I cannot get with this yamaha or any other horn and that makes my goto the most satisfying instrument that I have and I play better on my go to than any other horn because of it.

It has taken me decades to find and now it is with me and I am forever in the debt of all who helped me find it and prepared me so that I could recognise it when I found it.

The dream becomes reality only when we have put enough work in and understand how to use it to its full potential.

[tmd]

@rowuk said in Tough Decision to make:

@administrator
My take on this is perhaps a bit unconventional, but I would insist that between those two horns, it does not matter. Regardless of which on you pick, there will always be something in the back of your mind questioning that choice.
That being said, I do not believe in a lot of this synergy blah. I do not believe that most musicians have a "well formed concept" that would guide them only to specific hardware ....

I agree. It's rarely ever the hardware that makes the difference. Buy the horn that inspires you the most. And although this isn't always possible, especially with boutique horns, play the horn before you buy it.

I play a Bach 43*. It's been my main horn since 1975. It's perfect for me for 2 reasons. First, I'm emotionally attached to it, having played it for 45+ years. Second, it's what I'm physically used to playing. For me, it has nothing to do with the horn.

Mike

[Kehaulani]

Good grief. Isn't the OP's question simply which of two horns to buy? You play them both and pick the one that plays and sounds the best and is well built.. If it's a tie, go with nostalgia or it's mystique to you.

It's not rocket science or polemics or pseudo creative writing 101.

[ROWUK]

@kehaulani said in Tough Decision to make:

Good grief. Isn't the OP's question simply which of two horns to buy? You play them both and pick the one that plays and sounds the best and is well built.. If it's a tie, go with nostalgia or it's mystique to you.

It's not rocket science or polemics or pseudo creative writing 101.

If it were only this easy. There are so many reasons to buy a horn. I have 20+ and identify with each one. Every one has its use case. They all get played without having to make up stories about why.

That being said, we are creatures of habit and I am convinced that it takes months to really acclimate - then the sound and blow is considerably different than the first impression.

[ROWUK]

@trumpetb said in Tough Decision to make:

That is so true ROWUK we are often captivated by a single horn and attribute characteristics to it that maintain a reverence for it that is not borne out by the real facts.

What I mean by this is, the sound of a horn is a correlation between the embouchure the players characteristic sound, the mouthpiece used and the instrument itself.

I cannot say how many times that the sound of a horn has been utterly transformed by a mouthpiece change or to a lesser extent an embouchure change or to an even lesser extent a change in my sound concept while playing.

It is often asked which horn will make this sound or that sound or it is asked what horn dizzy or louis or chet or miles played as if we might sound like dizzy on dizzys horn.

No

We can however mould ourselves if given the right guidance and the right mouthpiece to go some way towards achieving the sound that we crave. Or even better our own sound.

We can play mariachi, symphonic, lead, smooth, the instruments are largely limitless if we know what we are doing and if we can match the equipment to ourselves and mould ourselves to the equipment.

chet dispensed with his flugel saying he has no need of it he can sound like a flugel on his trumpet if he chooses to. I am convinced he could easily do that.

But then some horns have that extra something that cannot be emulated by changing mouthpiece or changing the approach.

The best mouthpiece cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear even if it can get very close to it.

Go to horns, are of that type, we simply can do more of what we want and more convincingly and naturally with our go to horn.

I have a modern yamaha a very capable horn but there is something missing that I get with my goto that I cannot get with this yamaha or any other horn and that makes my goto the most satisfying instrument that I have and I play better on my go to than any other horn because of it.

It has taken me decades to find and now it is with me and I am forever in the debt of all who helped me find it and prepared me so that I could recognise it when I found it.

The dream becomes reality only when we have put enough work in and understand how to use it to its full potential.

I very much disagree with the idea of a mouthpiece transforming an instrument. We are creatures of habit and building new ones takes a long time - that is called "acclimation" and is the reason why my students get extended playing time with my collection of specialty mouthpieces - we need months to acclimate and then to discover that the first impressions were not the lasting ones is a big deal.

[Kehaulani]

Are we talking about a versatile, professional musician or a guy from off the street* who just wants a horn that plays well and makes him feel good?

*(Metaphorically speaking. No disrespect meant.)

[Trumpetb]

Like many things it depends.

If I have a cornet that has good intonation with a particular mouthpiece length short or long, then it is transformed by using the mouthpiece better matched to the instrument.

If I am looking for a rich and fluffy tonality and I have trumpet c cup mouthpieces then moving to a deeper cup can transform the instrument tonality closer to what I require.

I think we dont have to be professionals to have to make this kind of decision and see useable results.

A community band still has needs for tone and blending even if we only play for fun.

The professional has a need to deliver tonality that is required and needs to have the ability to deliver a range of tones so he or she can do his job as well as can be done.

A Committee is not going to sit well in the trumpet section of the LA symphony and the symphonic player needs to know what works well and where it does and have access to a broad range of malleable tones to do his job well in all scenarios in all genres he performs in.

As for seeing an instrument transforming with mouthpiece change alone I have experienced huge and unexpected changes in the response and articulation of an instrument when the only change made was a different mouthpiece.

But then this is just my own experience and may be perhaps attributed to my lack of playing experience at higher levels.

[Dr GO]

@rowuk said in Tough Decision to make:

I very much disagree with the idea of a mouthpiece transforming an instrument...

Perhaps a mouthpiece choice for a specific horn may not transform the horn, but the right mouthpiece-horn choice can optimize the performance of the horn.

I experienced one exception however. One day during a lesson with Claudio Roditi, he handed me a horn he said he just purchased at a street sale for $75. I played it, and handed it back and said, "Claudio, it sounds like a $75 horn." He then changed the mouthpiece for me and handed me the same horn back. It played with exceptional tone an resonance, yes, it was a horn transformed.

Claudio then gave me a lesson in backbore size, and how the correct gap choice can optimize the height of the sound wave amplitude as it exits the mouthpiece and is transmitted to the leadpipe. At the end of that lesson, we took a cab ride to Jarome Callet's studio, where he hand lathed the backbore of one of his mouthpieces, (it took him 3x to go back and forth to the lathe) until that mouthpiece made my Olds Recording sing, and play more open and better than it have ever sounded. At the time I was playing regularly at a club on Lexington Ave and needed a mic when playing with my sextet. After that day, I no longer needed or used the mic. So for my Recording, maybe not "transformed" but surely, enhanced.