Lip Buzzing-Bad

J. Jericho

@barliman2001 What's the harm in continuing a discussion in which there is no apparent hostility? Nuanced viewpoints as expressed in this thread provide additional ways of understanding the concepts we examine in our conversation. Besides, repetition is no obstacle to learning.

Imagine hearing a tune, any tune, played by any number of musicians and saying: "All right, I've heard it enough times; I don't need to hear it again." Shouldn't we have the option of hearing the tune repeated, whether by the same or by additional musicians? And have you not, upon hearing this tune again, sometimes discovered something that you had not previously noticed? Can this not be applied to the subject at hand?

barliman2001

@j-jericho Unfortunately not... hearing the same tune played in different fashions usually does not lead to heated arguments and bad language; the buzzing discussion already has a history of inciting both. I do not WANT to lock the thread - just needed to give advance warning to keep the discussion within polite levels.

Trumpetb

I for one welcome the comments of Barliman.

If a discussion descends from logic and measured comments through arguments and becomes abusive it is already too late for an admin to do anything other than act as a sheriff in a brawl so a timely reminder to keep things polite before they fall apart is very helpful.

If feelings run high and they do with this topic, then unwise words can easily follow and then fireworks happen so Barlimans wise words are right on point.

I believe this discussion was very useful and I learned something important that I had neglected to consider.

DR-GO showed himself to be both knowledgeable and open to new ideas and willing to change his position if reason justifies it.

ROWUK opened my eyes to the usefulness of buzzing to aid the rapid recovery of skills lost. Something we must never lose sight of if we wish to be educators

This is what makes this forum excellent and makes it stand out from the rest, knowledgeable members who are open to new ideas and help move discussions forward in useful areas who do not shy away from contentious issues but keep their heads as they do so that issues can be fully explored and learning can then follow.

Add to that admins who are not afraid to step in and remind members of what good conduct is and we have a site worth belonging to.

If nothing else this one thread has shown the high quality of the members and the high quality of the admins.

It taught me something important as well, and I am grateful I was able to contribute to the discussion.

ROWUK

Perhaps this is the "wrong place" for this comment, but it certainly fits with Elmars caution.

I see basically 4 reasons why people interact online:

to learn
to teach
to socialize
to argue

The first 3 are easily identified and generally lead to community development. The 4th is not always as clear cut as we would like - especially because people of various levels of development do not use or understand the use of certain words. Additionally there are the internet snipers that post nothing except that a previously stated position is "all wrong" - but offer no contrary position. Finally there is the academic arguer that plays devils advocate regardless of the position. At the end of the day, only the fourth reason causes any reason for concern. At TrumpetMaster, putting a user (or users) on a temporary vacation after adequate warnings solved the problem. The issue for me is transparency.
In this particular thread we have the first 3 reasons in abundance. If someone were to come and generally trash buzzing or trash not buzzing (like perhaps Mr. Vizzutti did), we would have adequate proof that they have left the realm of reality. The admin first reaction could be a PM warning. Repeated discourse would lead to escalation management.
If someone makes an 8 page post like a doctoral thesis, it would be better placed outside of the thread but with a link.

The biggest problem with the human state is its inconsistency. If any teacher had embouchure, range, technique, tone and musicality solved, there would be a lot more spectacular players. Where are they? I believe that no teacher has all of the corners covered and that is why we can accept that there are multiple possibilities to manipulate our own states - making each path as unique as the person following it.

Now, we could define a theme: "Most favorable practices" that would apply to a lot of use cases. Breathing exercises, scales, intervals, patterns, longtones, slurs all belong in this group. Then we could create the theme "warmup" which certainly will be more diverse than the above (and in my view, buzzing of any type belongs here). Warmup is different than most favorable practice as there is not universal acceptance to what the word means and represents.

Kehaulani

I say, "Buzz off".

GeorgeB

The subject of buzzing, for or against, is not one worth arguing IMHO.
I know players who say it works for them and those who say it doesn't. No harm in hearing the discussion of why in both cases, but really, it isn't life or death were discussing here, folks.
Also, If everybody here, or elsewhere, always agreed on subjects, it would be a pretty dull place to visit.
George

Dr GO

@rowuk said in Lip Buzzing-Bad:

I am really trying to understand and ask clarity to the above post. I hope the author can appreciate how confusing the above post reads (at least to me). Let's start first with:

...there are the internet snipers that post nothing except that a previously stated position is "all wrong" - but offer no contrary position.
"All" is not wrong. "Lip buzzing-Bad" from my perspective, is wrong. And yes, one should offer a contrary position. I have done so in prior embouchure threads on this site and on TM so will not repeat my position other then it is based on my 8 years of training as a medical student, resident, then 27 years teaching muscle physiology to medical students. Out of this experience, I have described the Phooooowwww technique. It is the most efficient way to play, as buzzing fatigues muscles, and anything that so adversely fatigues muscles is just wrong. Anyone who wants to debated me on this, I ask you first go through at least 4 years of medical school training, then you can be prepared to debate. If you are unwilling to do this, don't even start, as your ignorance will defeat you from the start.

If someone were to come and generally trash buzzing or trash not buzzing (like perhaps Mr. Vizzutti did), we would have adequate proof that they have left the realm of reality. The admin first reaction could be a PM warning. Repeated discourse would lead to escalation management.
Great, this site wants to recruit professionals and if I read this post right, the author is already advocating for Allen Vizzutti to be banned. If I am reading this wrong than please clarify. I have personally met Mr. Vizzutti, attended his master classes, and performed on stage, live with Allen. He is a true professional, and a real educator. Please, let's not ban Allen from this site if he chooses to become a member and lets put some trust into his perspective on buzzing.

...we could define a theme: "Most favorable practices" ...we could create the theme "warmup" which certainly will be more diverse
Agreed, these nuances would lead astray from the focus of this thread. I started this thread to be focused on buzzing. Let's stick to that focus, OK?

Kehaulani

Good grief! You folks have gone on for two pages of posts now grousing about an event that hasn't even taken place. Straw Man City.

Trumpetb

That is well said kehaulani much time and effort has been squandered on this topic, but I believe it was right to so squander it.

This is a fundamentally important issue and in my opinion many players early technique has been damaged by misunderstanding buzzing what it is and why it is done.

It is easy to buzz and easy to buzz badly and very hard to stop doing it once you start and then you sound like a hunter calling a duck.

Some of the worst trumpet playing in recorded history is due to this issue of buzzing a note instead of playing a note, and yes there is a difference.

I hope to further expose the fundamental issue by taking the discussion out of trumpet context and into the context of early instruments of 500 years ago. Please indulge me on this it is a salutary lesson and holds a warning to us all on the topic of buzzing I think.

The Zink or cornett or cornetto is a medieval instrument that was popular from years 1450 through to 1650.

This was recognised as the most beautiful sounding instrument beyond any other and the best players were superstars.

It was also recognised as the most difficult to learn, and consisted of a small trumpet mouthpiece set into a woodwind instrument similar to an early wooden flute.

Then the black death came along and wiped out all the makers and players leaving nobody to learn this most difficult instrument from.

Records stating the existence of both makers and players that existed before the black death showed they were entirely missing from society after the black death, it is thought they all died in that outbreak.

With no good players or teachers to learn from the instrument usage completely died out then and performers had to teach themselves, it appears that they believed they should buzz into the mouthpiece cup and this makes sense, a beginner who knows no better believes that buzzing is what you do into a trumpet mouthpiece to make a noise.

For the next 300 years this most beautiful sounding instrument was reported as sounding like the braying of a cow or donkey or duck and nobody was inclined to learn how to play this horrible sounding instrument properly.

During the last 60 years inspired and serious players made great efforts to rediscover how to play this instrument properly and it has now rightly been elevated back to sounding beautiful again.

We have Bruce Dickey to thank for at least some of this work.

Even today buzzing is taught to players wishing to learn to play this instrument that can so easily sound like a cow a donkey or a duck, and I suggest that the story of the Zink could so easily be the story of the trumpet.

I believe that buzzing killed the Zink for 300 years. This topic is that important. I think that DR-GO ROWUK Kehaulani have all made excellent contributions to a very important topic and the admins have done well by allowing this to be explored.

I believe this is monumentally important and feelings can run high on this topic.

Yes Buzzing can be useful and yes Buzzing can be harmful. We are lucky we have great players like DR-GO and Kehaulani we are lucky we have great teachers like ROWUK and this site is lucky to have great admins.

Buzzing is like a two headed snake that can easily bite us but it is useful to have around.

Let us all remember the story of the Zink and beware of bad buzzing.

Kehaulani

Talking about buzzing can be productive. After the introduction of this topic, the thread has become more about talking about talking about buzzing rather than talking about buzzing, itself. Seems much ado about nothing. But that's me. Carry on.

GeorgeB

I think I've read enough about buzzing for now. I think I'll go play some ballads.
George

Kehaulani

@georgeb said in Lip Buzzing-Bad:

I think I've read enough about buzzing for now. I think I'll go play some ballads. George

Take requests? Do you know that old country love ballad, "If I Had To Do It All Over Again, I'd Do It All Over You?

GeorgeB

@kehaulani said in Lip Buzzing-Bad:

@georgeb said in Lip Buzzing-Bad:

I think I've read enough about buzzing for now. I think I'll go play some ballads. George

Take requests? Do you know that old country love ballad, "If I Had To Do It All Over Again, I'd Do It All Over You?

Hah ! Oh, yeah , I know it well.

ROWUK

@dr-go Your post is not even worth a comment.

One of the things that drives me nuts are members with an "absolute" opinion that is contrary to practice throughout the whole world. You have disqualified yourself again.

Mr. Vizzutti was a year ahead of me at Eastman in the 1970s. He is entitled to his opinions, just like everyone else. He is far from an "average" talent and what works for him is not necessarily a recipe for anyone else.

The joke as far as I am concerned is the Buzz=bad. There is simply too many successful players using it to ignore. That does NOT make buzzing universally good or bad. It certainly does warrant research. It also warrants civil behavior - one of Elmars major concerns.

I am out. I do not feed the trolls - with or without a Dr title!

Dr GO

@rowuk said in Lip Buzzing-Bad:

@dr-go Your post is not even worth a comment.

One of the things that drives me nuts are members with an "absolute" opinion that is contrary to practice throughout the whole world. You have disqualified yourself again.

What drives me nuts are individuals that have no idea about the dynamics of muscle function and then professes authority, and throw insults at individuals when one persons opinion is contrary to their position. You have no qualification to understand important aspects of embouchure response. and for that reason I am so glad you are out of the discussion because your sarcasm and anger interferes with what several individuals on this thread have identified the discussion as useful. Does a members attempt to convey to other members an additional set of self improvement techniques make that individual a Troll? I would suggest that such input makes TrumpetBoards a better site when it can give advice to members that they may find useful to improve their performance, right?

Look, the message I am trying to convey is that buzzing is a bad alternative to using a more efficient use of muscle insertions along the Orbicularis oris. Buzzing only uses lateral tension against jaw muscle insertion on the orbicularis. This opens up the performer to fatigue earlier. So what saddens me is all those successful performers that Rowuk suggests that use buzzing could achieve a whole higher level of endurance, and therefore extend their successful performance quality. Using muscle insertions at the cheek bones and lower jaw nearly quadruples insertion sites of muscle groups that control muscle response on the orbicularis oris.

Dr GO

@rowuk said in Lip Buzzing-Bad:

@dr-go Your post is not even worth a comment.

....That does NOT make buzzing universally good or bad. It certainly does warrant research. It also warrants civil behavior - one of Elmars major concerns.

There is one important comment from Rowuk as highlighted above that does add to the conversation. This would be make for excellent thesis material for an individual working toward a music or physiology doctorate.

barliman2001

@dr-go ... and as the discussion seems to have maneuvered itself into no-man's-land (if not a dead end) and threatens to slip - again - into the murk of speculation and worse, I am finally locking this thread.