Professional musicians on this board question

GeorgeB

I do know that members of other small bands like mine referred to themselves as freelance, or semi-professional musicians. Perhaps that's how the union categorized us. I never gave things like that much thought back then because I just loved playing for an audience.

Trumpetsplus

Let's throw the cat in!

The conventional opposite of "professional musician" is "amateur musician".

"Amateur" is from the latin root: amare - to love (Fr. amour, It. amore, Eng. amorous) which would suggest that an amateur musician is someone who loves being a musician?

As love is at the other end of the scale from hate, is it not then the implication that the professional musician is someone who hates being a musician?

Mike Ansberry

I am uncertain what the difference is between a pro player and an amateur player. I know very few people who earn their living by only playing trumpet. I used to list name players that I have played behind at jazz festivals and local shows but I have been told that unless that person remembers me being there it doesn't count.

I have made my living teaching band in public school. I don't consider myself a pro player. Or if I am, it is at a low level. I played full time for a while in the shows at Opryland but my main money was still made teaching. Like most, if not all of us I've played in various bands in various styles through my life. I do some studio work but I've never been on a widely promoted recording. I've played a few times on local Nashville television shows. I've had the privilege of studying with some great teachers: Don Jacoby, Bob Ceccarini, and Frank Campos.

But really I'm a mediocre trumpet player. I have my stuggles with pitch, range, endurance, etc.

Kehaulani

Professional is an arbitrary term in its common usage.

A professional usually means one who makes a living at it. But within that category, I have known sublime musicians to downright hacks who don't really deserve the term - but they do qualify. OTOH, I have known weekend warriors who play very well.

It seems to me, then, that the term is relative and is more descriptive using two different terms, professional alone, referring to their income source, and professional-level relating to their skill.

Dr GO

@Trumpetsplus said in Professional musicians on this board question:

Let's throw the cat in!

The conventional opposite of "professional musician" is "amateur musician".

"Amateur" is from the latin root: amare - to love (Fr. amour, It. amore, Eng. amorous) which would suggest that an amateur musician is someone who loves being a musician?

As love is at the other end of the scale from hate, is it not then the implication that the professional musician is someone who hates being a musician?

I would say the professional is an individual that pro-fesses the art, which is a hard thing to do with hate in the heart.

Dr GO

@tmd said in Professional musicians on this board question:

Quack vs hack ... your words, not mine. (Just kidding) I've been called worse.

Let me know the next time you'll be in DC. Let's get together.

Mike

So this Wise Quacking Hack will be in the DC area on December 8, 9 and 10 (Sunday through Tuesday). I will be in meetings all day the 9th and 10th, but arrive in late morning at National on the 8th. Perhaps meeting somewhere on the 8th for lunch or dinner would work, as long as it is near the Metro line.

By the way, this will be the last time I am in DC for awhile as I will be rotating off the Center Committed for the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation after working with the organization in this capacity over the past 8 years. So not sure when I will have another chance to get into the DC area again.

Looking forward to meeting with you though to discuss trumpet and late in life career changes with you! -Gary

A Former User

Since I started this discussion I'd like to add my take on "professional" while being totally outside the realm of any definition of the term.

I'd think if you make your living with music as an art form you are a professional. Mike Ansberry, as a school band teacher is a professional in my book even if he never did anything other than that. What I was thinking about when I started this string was successful trumpet players that have participated noticeably in the commercial world of music. Anybody who has played with well known orchestras or bands or sat in as studio musicians for recording artists would also count. That's the sort of thing I was thinking about...although it looks like I expressed myself badly.

GeorgeB

@Niner said in Professional musicians on this board question:

Since I started this discussion I'd like to add my take on "professional" while being totally outside the realm of any definition of the term.

I'd think if you make your living with music as an art form you are a professional. Mike Ansberry, as a school band teacher is a professional in my book even if he never did anything other than that. What I was thinking about when I started this string was successful trumpet players that have participated noticeably in the commercial world of music. Anybody who has played with well known orchestras or bands or sat in as studio musicians for recording artists would also count. That's the sort of thing I was thinking about...although it looks like I expressed myself badly.

No, you expressed yourself perfectly. The subject matter just happened to be extremely interesting so the discussion just went off in all directions the way any interest subject would. I like this kind of discussion, so thank you, Niner.

OldSchoolEuph

@tmd said in Professional musicians on this board question:

@Newell-Post said in Professional musicians on this board question:

@GeorgeB If you got paid, then you meet the traditional definition of a professional. You don't need to earn your full-time living doing it.

My definition is different ... You're a professional trumpet player, if playing the trumpet is how you make a living. Of course, it's okay to have different definitions. And I think GeorgeB's definition is very reasonable, too. And I think many would agree with him.

Mike

This prompted me to think of some of those who augmented their playing income in order to make a living (so technically not professional players by this standard, but are amply represented in trades media, held significant posts, have multiple commercial recordings etc.):
Wynton Marsalis
Doc Severinsen
Rafael Mendez
Al Hirt
Frankie Avalon
Miles Davis
Dizzy Gillespie
Louis Armstrong
Renold Schilke
Elden Benge
Rudy Muck (both of them)
Vincent Bach
Don Berry
Joseph Gustat
Gustav Heim
Earnst Couturier
Henry Distin

To earn one's living just from playing is not just rare today, but always has been rare. At the heyday of major symphonies, the typical performer held at least 2 other jobs to keep food on the table (look up Fred Forman some time - a true performing musician's life).

tmd

I might have started this tangent. My bad. It wasn't my intent. Suffice it to say that there are many ways to look at what makes someone a "professional", all of which are valid.

In my original post, I just wanted to emphasize that, although I get paid for the gigs I perform, I have never made a living through music.

Mike

Kehaulani

@OldSchoolEuph said in Professional musicians on this board question:

This prompted me to think of some of those who augmented their playing income in order to make a living (so technically not professional players by this standard, but are amply represented in trades media, held significant posts, have multiple commercial recordings etc.):
Wynton Marsalis
Doc Severinsen
Rafael Mendez
Al Hirt
Frankie Avalon
Miles Davis
Dizzy Gillespie
Louis Armstrong
Renold Schilke
Elden Benge
Rudy Muck (both of them)
Vincent Bach
Don Berry
Joseph Gustat
Gustav Heim
Earnst Couturier
Henry Distin

I don't understand your post. To the best of my knowledge, all of those folks are professional musicians.

Well, maybe not Frankie Avalon.

OldSchoolEuph

@Kehaulani
Frankie Avalon may be famous for his late 50s-early 60s TV and film acting/singing as well as several singles as a vocalist in the same era, but he began in the early 50s as a studio, and ultimately on-air trumpet player.

I also left out Edward Llewellyn and Byron Autrey from the previous list of highly influential folk who did more than play to earn a living. At the same time, I suppose I should acknowledge at least 2 I know who indeed do make all but a trivial portion of their living from playing : Jeff Stockham and Derek Lockhart.

My point was that, Jeff and Derek aside, most who have been "professional" players have also been designers, endorsers, salesmen, producers, band leaders, composers, actors, entertainers, comedians, teachers, shop foremen, makers, bartenders and a host of other occupations in addition to playing. Making a living from playing alone is not a threshold to being a "professional".

Kehaulani

@OldSchoolEuph said in Professional musicians on this board question:

@Kehaulani

Making a living from playing alone is not a threshold to being a "professional".
Better check your dictionary.

OldSchoolEuph

@Kehaulani I'll rephrase: Making one's living exclusively from playing is not the one and only possible qualification for being a "professional".

Rapier232

Funny thing, language. If someone told me they were a professional musician, I’d think that was their job. The only source of income. If you have a job, but get paid for musical performances that, to me, doesn’t make you a professional musician.

I get paid a couple of times a year to play in a pit band and I’m definitely no professional. I’m not even a good amateur.

Dr GO

@Rapier232 said in Professional musicians on this board question:

...I’m definitely no professional. I’m not even a good amateur.

Don't let that get you down in the pits!

Dr GO

@Rapier232 said in Professional musicians on this board question:

...a professional musician, I’d think that was their job. The only source of income.

If you have a job, but get paid for musical performances that, to me, doesn’t make you a professional musician...

Let me give you an example of a performer that is near and dear to my heart: Eddie Henderson. He is a well know and respected professional jazz musician (Roy Hargrove references him as a mentor and refers to him as "Doc").

Eddie Henderson is also a psychiatrist and as I recently have read is still practicing psychiatry, which is recognized as a medical profession.

That makes him a dual professional, musician and physician. I consider myself the same, as some of us (As Old School Euph) has noted have "other lives" as well to our musical lives. As I noted above, some years I made more as a musician, some years as a clinician. In so doing you do not turn one profession off then turn the other on. Both flow at the same time just as hot and cold water from separate handles can be turned on at the same time to run through a common spicket to produce the same, but warmer result that is still called water.

Rapier232

@Dr-GO said in Professional musicians on this board question:

@Rapier232 said in Professional musicians on this board question:

...a professional musician, I’d think that was their job. The only source of income.

If you have a job, but get paid for musical performances that, to me, doesn’t make you a professional musician...

Let me give you an example of a performer that is near and dear to my heart: Eddie Henderson. He is a well know and respected professional jazz musician (Roy Hargrove references him as a mentor and refers to him as "Doc").

Eddie Henderson is also a psychiatrist and as I recently have read is still practicing psychiatry, which is recognized as a medical profession.

That makes him a dual professional, musician and physician. I consider myself the same, as some of us (As Old School Euph) has noted have "other lives" as well to our musical lives. As I noted above, some years I made more as a musician, some years as a clinician. In so doing you do not turn one profession off then turn the other on. Both flow at the same time just as hot and cold water from separate handles can be turned on at the same time to run through a common spicket to produce the same, but warmer result that is still called water.

Sorry Doc. You are a Doctor, who plays trumpet. You are not a trumpeter that plays doctor.

Dr GO

@Rapier232 said in Professional musicians on this board question:

Sorry Doc.,, You are not a trumpeter that plays doctor.

You sir have not seen me when dating my girlfriends from the past (prior to getting my MD)!

Rapier232

@Dr-GO said in Professional musicians on this board question:

@Rapier232 said in Professional musicians on this board question:

Sorry Doc.,, You are not a trumpeter that plays doctor.

You sir have not seen me when dating my girlfriends from the past!

No, that’s Doctors and Nurses. We’ve all played that.