Thoughts about mouthpiece placement
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After starting my comeback 4 years ago I realized I needed to redo my embouchure and technique cuz it was wrong. I ended up protecting the Red from the MP as much as possible, so both lips are rolled in a little with the MP braced against the lower lip outside the Red. It feels 1/3 upper but looks about 50 50. It dramatically helped with range and sound, along with learning to play without excess pressure. I agree you have to find what works with your unique mouth.
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@pss
As Donald Reinhardt used to say,
mouthpiece placement depends on embouchure type.Downstream uses more upper lip than lower lip.
Upstream uses more lower lip than upper lip.
moshe
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@Doc-Wannabe said in Thoughts about mouthpiece placement:
....I agree you have to find what works with your unique mouth.
Yes! This last part of the comment cuts to the bigger truth. There is the anatomical side of the equation (embouchure). Then there is the equipment side of equation (mouthpiece). I truly believe that anyone can find a rim and cup combination match to accommodate the lip and denture variables of the anatomical set up to the embouchure. It takes experimentation, trial and error that in no way can be predicted by a mouthpiece chart of cup diameters of depths.
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I play slightly to the right because I have a cupid's bow lip. My high school band director tried to center me up and it didn't work. My second college trumpet professor, who was an orchestral principal trumpet player, tried to flatten out my chin and it didn't work. What has worked is keeping my mouthpiece where my natural aperture is (slightly to the right) and doing Balanced Embouchure (forgetting anything about the chin and letting the lips roll in and roll out naturally).
--Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher!
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@mafields627 said in Thoughts about mouthpiece placement:
I play slightly to the right... high school band director tried to center me up and it didn't work.... college trumpet professor tried to flatten out my chin and it didn't work. What has worked is keeping my mouthpiece where my natural aperture is....
Bottom line from what I learned most to respect from my medical training: Don't mess around with Mother Nature!
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Hi pass,
That's a tough question. Different lips for different people. My lips aren't like Wynton's and Dr-GO's lips are not like Rashann's lips.
Generally, I use a 1/3 top, 2/3 bottom setting. However, when I look at female trumpet players, it appears that their lips are more symmetrical in general and when they play, there seems to be a more 50/50 placement. So we have guys that have different shaped lips and women seem to have different shaped lips compared to men. A constant whether you're a man or a woman is "stay off the red". Granted as soon as someone says this, someone else will say "well X plays on the red and she's fantastic. The reason for staying off the red is simple. There are less layers of skin on the red and when it's metal vs skin, we which wins that game. Other than staying off the red, you will need to discover what's the best position for you. One's teeth need to be taken into consideration too! Some people have perfect teeth, some have crooked teeth and some have teeth missing. Just an idea, with the rise of YouTube, a person can watch their favorite trumpet player and see how they set their embouchure. Also, if you know a great trumpet teacher (not necessarily a great trumpet player) they can be of huge assistance in helping you discover the best embouchure setting for you. I wish I could be of more help but the most anyone can do is to speak in general terms since we can not take an in depth look at what you're doing.
Good luck
Dr.Mark -
I thought the photos in Farkas' book at least half a century ago solved this. Geez.
Regarding vertical placement, a friend of mine, one of the state's four top trumpet players and who first got a space in the Air Force Academy Band and then, the Air Force Band in D.C., played off to the right, not centered.
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@pss said in Thoughts about mouthpiece placement:
Red or no red? One third up, 2 thirds down? 50/50? considering the size of the rim, how many of you can really play without anchoring in the red? Up-stream, down-stream? Successful players with unorthodox embouchures?
It appears that male and female lips are a little different. Just from observation, it appears that females use closer to a 50/50 setting. Generally speaking, a person male or female should stay off the red by tucking in the lips a little. Why? Because its metal against skin and there are more layers of skin above and below the red than on the red. As for me, 1/3 upper, 2/3 lower. My daughter, 50/50.
One of my bigger pet peeves about the lips are lazy students that allow their lip to pop out which puts them on the red instead of keeping it tucked. -
@Dr-Mark said in Thoughts about mouthpiece placement:
It appears that male and female lips are a little different.
Dr. Mark, why do you say that? Not saying it's not true, but I've worked with professional female trumpet players all my life and never noticed any overall difference between their collective embouchures and their male counterparts.
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@Kehaulani
Look at men and women. Which seems to have more symmetrical lips, men or women? -
@Dr-Mark
Really? And that applies to all age groups and ethnicities?(I'm not in a position to do a survey, but I sure like the idea.)
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@Kehaulani said in Thoughts about mouthpiece placement:
Really? And that applies to all age groups and ethnicities?
(I'm not in a position to do a survey, but I sure like the idea.)
You have Internet capabilities. My observation (let me repeat that) My observation, is that females seem to have more symmetrical 50/50 lips when compared to males. In livescience.com, The more testosterone a man has, the stronger his brow, cheekbones and jaw line. Meanwhile, the more estrogen a woman has, the wider her face, fuller her lips and the higher her eyebrows. In short, sex hormones control the divergence of male and female facial features.
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"the more estrogen a woman has".
Wouldn't one need to have a control group of both men and women in a variety of equal circumstances before one had a definitive result? Just askin'.
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@flugelgirl said in Thoughts about mouthpiece placement:
I am a total believer in putting it on your face and not thinking about it - let it work where it’s naturally meant to work.
Good advice. Worth repeating. Unless you're putting the mouthpiece in your ear, then it probably doesn't matter.
More seriously, for most people, unless you're doing something extreme, put it where it seems to want ago, and forget about it.One good reason for this is that we really don't know how we use our embouchure muscles when we play. These muscles are very small, and their actions are subtle and often imperceptible. So things like upstream/downstream, one-third/two-thirds, etc., are really indirect measures of embouchure use. And while these terms may have a role, they are limited in what they convey.
Mike
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@Kehaulani said in Thoughts about mouthpiece placement:
Wouldn't one need to have a control group of both men and women in a variety of equal circumstances before one had a definitive result?
Just curious, why would a person need a control group for this type of investigation?
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@flugelgirl said in Thoughts about mouthpiece placement:
I am a total believer in putting it on your face and not thinking about it - let it work where it’s naturally meant to work.
Hi flugelgirl,
I don't disagree. However, I've had kids (of all ages) that with a little help (ex. getting them to not play on the red) has made a positive difference. I do agree that placing it naturally on the face is good advice. Its only a few ringers that need assistance. -
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@Tobylou8
Damned! Is that a peanut allergy!?! Kinda looks like two bottom feeders. -
@Dr-Mark part of the reason I say this is because I worked with a student whose regular teacher had hosed him all up by telling him his teeth had to be perfectly aligned and his mouthpiece perfectly in the middle before he could play. He spent so much time trying to get set to play, and his sound was horrible! Got him into a pickup the horn breathe, play, put it down and repeat exercise, and and by that afternoon his world had changed. I hope he never went back to that teacher!
Another player I went to college with decided to experiment with his mouthpiece placement over the summer for no apparent reason and ruined his playing for about 3 years. A big shame - he was an amazing player before that!
Sure, some people need help, but 99% of them need more help with air than embouchure. -
@Dr-Mark said in Thoughts about mouthpiece placement:
@Kehaulani said in Thoughts about mouthpiece placement:
Wouldn't one need to have a control group of both men and women in a variety of equal circumstances before one had a definitive result?
Just curious, why would a person need a control group for this type of investigation?
To have something consistent to compare results to?
That aside, wouldn't a natural placement fly in the face of some of the most popular embouchure placements aims (upstream, etc.)?
I'm not proposing this, necessarily, but asking the question.
