Valve Springs

Dr GO

However upon occasion the valve springs are just too tired and simply not strong enough to do their job, and in that case alone, stretching the spring will have a good chance of resolving the issue.

Springs do not get tired (if you have not pulled or stretched on them). Only the players using said springs, get tired.

Trumpetb

I disagree Dr

Tired springs is an expression and a description of springs that are reaching the end of their life.

Over many years with hundreds of thousands or millions of cycles, springs slowly become weaker and weaker.

Springs do not last for ever nothing does and the loss of spring tension over decades is called tired springs.

This is most noticeable in cars, this is a quote describing the problem.

"If you have a bad coil spring, that corner of the vehicle might sag more or appear lower than the other corners. This will easily be noticeable simply by looking at it from the outside.

But when you are driving the vehicle, you will have less stability from this sagging too. This problem will cause other symptoms to get worse, such as excessive tire wear and tear."

This is another quote relating to car suspension spring replacement

"When replacing tension springs, it is recommended that both springs be replaced and matched because the older, unbroken spring will have lost some of its tension from years of use."

The sagging of the suspension spring is described as the spring becoming tired and is common in older cars that have covered many tens of thousands of miles.

All springs suffer this phenomenon over time particularly in heavy use and valve springs are not immune to it.

Dr GO

Trumpetb, your analogy just does not apply. Cars support over a thousand pounds of weight and are challenged with performance demands of uneven road surfaces, are exposed to thousands of pounds of torque. Trumpets just do not see this kind of strain, so, while I agree in this situation metal composites will break down, your analogy just does not apply to trumpet springs. They are not subjected to the same forces and will endure the traditional force of fingers displacing them over decades of use.

Now the etching of valves against unkept casings can cause wear on the pistons that will truly effect their performance over time. So time is more a factor to wear pattern on the surface of the valve than it is on the performance of the valve spring.

Kehaulani

This post is deleted!

Trumpetb

I see your position Dr however materials behave in a similar manner under stress.

Car springs are very strong and hold in equilibrium the great weight of a car that is very true.

As the cross sectional area of a wire reduces its strength reduces and its resilience reduces proportionally.

The detrimental effects on a valve spring subjected to the stresses of operation driven only by fingers therefore are magnified on the material due to the small cross sectional area of the spring.

It is for example possible for a fine steel wire gripped between fingers to be snapped by finger pressure alone if the wire is thin enough.

The important consideration here is if there were no historic evidence that can be examined then my contention would be pure speculation and open to question.

We however have a wealth of evidence that demonstrates the reduction of valve spring strength over time.

Manufacturers of trumpets sell replacement springs and these replacement springs are used by players to replace the existing springs in the instrument and after replacement of the old spring with the new one the valve action is improved back to the state it was when the instrument was purchased.

Why did the old springs need replacing.

Are we to believe that Bach or Yamaha or Reynolds have been selling new springs because the springs they fitted in the original factory were somehow inadequate and had to be replaced by the players to make their instrument playable.

If so why was this not spotted right away and rectified immediately under warranty

Or were the springs the correct springs when the instrument was sold and over time the player discovered that the old spring no longer performed adequately and new springs of the same design elasticity performed better in the instrument than the ones that were originally fitted.

And if the new springs of the exact same design elasticity perform better in the instrument than the Bach originals, that must mean the originals no longer have the performance they once had.

I believe that original springs do become weaker over time, and I also believe that replacing these weaker springs returns the instrument to correct playability.

I cannot accept that valve springs last infinitely and never wear out, that is illogical and runs counter to everything I know and believe about materials.

If valve springs do not ever wear out then there is no need of replacement springs, the originals fitted cannot ever be improved.

Clearly springs do wear out and need replacing eventually and Bach Yamaha etc know this and sell replacement springs because of it.

The only question is how do we determine when the spring has reached the end of its useful life and what do we do about that.

Kehaulani

And as a woman friend past, used to say, "What'll it mean to a naked lady riding on a white horse a hundred years from now".

ROWUK

@trumpetb I am in my late 60s and have been playing for over 50 years.
My Bach C229 was purchased in 1974 and still has the original springs
My Monette Raja C was built in 1989/1990 and still has the original springs
My Selmer Radial 2° Model 75 was built in 1974 and still has the original springs
My Selmer Radial 2° D trumpet was built in 1978 and still has the original springs
My Heckel rotary Bb was built in 1938 and still has the original springs
My Getzen 4 valve flugelhorn was built in the 1970s and still has the original springs

The rest of my horns are similar. They ALL get played a lot but do not need stretching or replacement. That being said, my horns do go to a technician every couple of years for a checkup and chemical clean (no ultrasound bath). My suspicion is that the spring gets blamed for valve dirt, distortion and damage because stretching is a supposed "cheaper fix".

I will not deny that there are causes to replace springs, but I see little to no reason to ever stretch - unless the valve has exceptionally long throw (like old Benges). Stretching to fine tune tension simply has no benefit.

The short throw of typical trumpet valves does not cause excessive wear on spring tension. If the valves are regularly cleaned and oiled, the spring has a very easy job and as I noted above, lasts for decades with no hit in performance.

As I previously posted, stretching the spring does unpredictable things to K - the tension. No general statement can be made except that the stretching was not worth it.

barliman2001

@rowuk To that list, I can add my Courtois cornet - built 1908, and still original springs. Or my 1929 Besson Imperial cornet - same... The only instrument I ever changed springs on was my 1995 Stomvi Elite cornet - but that came with two sets of different springs, and I exchanged the factory-mounted springs for the slightly softer exchange pair.

Trumpetb

Rowuk I think you are seeing my comments from the wrong direction as though I am recommending that if the valves give trouble just stretch the springs, and as if I am stating that all old instruments have tired springs that dont work properly.

I am not saying that at all.

I am saying that valves have many reasons that cause them to misbehave.

All these must be examined to identify the cause

If everything has been rigorously checked the valve is free to move it is clean well oiled all parts are present and correctly assembled there are no dents and no other possible cause then the spring may be the problem.

It can take weeks to chase down all avenues and when there is nothing else left then when the spring is the only part not cleaned or in some way fixed, then the finger of suspicion points in that direction.

Replacing the spring with a new correct part may then fix the problem and if no correct original spring is available and you end up fitting a non original incorrect spring because that is all that is available you cannot guarantee that it will work correctly.

You cannot expect a wrong part to work correctly it is always a 50/50 chance that it will.

In one recent case everything was adressed and the only thing left that could be causing the problem was the spring so I tried to get a correct replacement spring and there was no correct replacement anywhere in the world.

I found a euphonium spring a new stock item that might fit and work in a trumpet. It was a 50/50 chance it would work. I ordered the set of euphonium springs fitted them and they worked perfectly.

In another instrument everything was checked tested and cleaned repeatedly for weeks the old spring was the only culprit left. No new spring was available so a wrong stock new spring had to be tried, it was a 50/50 chance just like the euphonium spring mentioned above, but this time it did not work.

As a last ditch effort before either retiring the horn never to be played again, or giving it to a tech and saying this horn cannot be fixed, I took the chance and stretched the springs and it worked like magic. Problem fixed forever never to return.

Stretching springs must always be a last ditch effort when everything else has been tried and nothing else has worked.

In 99.999 percent of cases sticking valves is caused by one of the following
1 dirt
2 lack of oiling
3 wrong oil
4 badly assembled parts
5 broken parts
6 hardened residues
7 foreign matter
8 poor operation
9 incorrect parts in the valve
10 felts and corks that are breaking up
11 bent parts
12 dents.

It takes weeks to check and recheck all of these problem area and all of them must be checked for the root cause and fixed before moving on to the springs as the culprit.

If all these areas are fine then the problem must be elsewhere and that means the spring.

By a process of elimination the spring becomes the prime suspect.

That is why in my case every time I decide the springs must be the problem it it is after eliminating all other possible causes, and lo and behold it turns out that the spring was in fact the problem. I had checked or fixed every other possible cause before deciding the spring was the culprit.

And when the spring can be the only problem it makes no sense to declare that the spring cannot ever be a problem, it has to be the problem because everything else other than the spring has been checked and proven to be ok.

There is always a cause our job is to find the cause and resolve it. We do this by a systematic approach and by a process of elimination.

Techs are great they zero in on the problem by the same process of elimination why should we do anything less.

My advice to members is this, do not stretch springs as a first fix, use it as a last resort when every other possibility has been explored or fixed and never stretch springs if a new spring that is correct to the instrument is available.

But if everything else has been addressed and new correct springs cannot be found anywhere and a tech is unavailable or is not an option then stretching a spring can be tried and has a good chance of working.

I am not surprised that you have lots of old equipment and old valve springs that are not giving problems your equipment is very well maintained.

However it is really old equipment older than 1960 where the problems with tired springs surface. I have owned instruments from 1880 1921 1924 1948 1952 1953 1965 and the weak/tired spring issue hit most of these instruments. Instruments of this age have often been played to death.

Many players do not trust instruments of this advanced age with many citing the reason for distrusting them as being that they all have very poor valves. The likes of Sachmo and Bix or anyone else at the time never said that their instruments had poor valves.

I am wondering if weak springs due to advanced age and heavy use over 80 to 100 years is a hidden problem, because all the instruments I have owned and used up to 140 years old have without exception excellent valves.

I do believe in letting a tech work on instruments when problems hit.

I have spent thousands over the years on tech work and they have always done a fantastic job, but there are limits and sometimes it makes sense to stretch a spring when it gives an instant fix at zero cost.

Why wait 3 weeks and spend 20 or 30 dollars if it can be fixed in 30 seconds for nothing. If it doesnt work the tech is still there as an option.

I just have very old equipment that throws up an unusual problem with springs and has led to a solution that does actually work very well and is a useful addition to the tool box.

Kehaulani

Newell Post
The answer was some light hand lapping of the pistons plus replacing the Bach springs with Jupiter springs.

Trumpetb

I dont want to try to tell anyone that their existing solution
to sticking valves is wrong, but I am unhappy with lapping.

I do not believe that lapping is ever necessary unless it is with new built or newly refurbished valves or valves that are too tight in the bore.

If an instrument has great valves that have worked fine without sticking for for 30 years or 50 years, what benefit does lapping bring.

Players love to lap valves the forum is full of advice to lap valves with lapping compound or toothpaste or vim or grinding paste or rouge.

The forum is also full of complaints that valves have lost compression in equal measure.

Removing metal by lapping from a valve that already fits the valve block perfectly, removes dirt and residues and valve metal that is needed to give good compression as well.

The valve has not grown thicker or fatter over time, it has grown fatter simply with dirt and residues that have accreted and stuck to the valve in use.

Techs remove dirt and residues chemically not by grinding the valve surface.

If I have a car with residues and detritus on the paint, I dont rub the paint down with glasspaper or grinding paste to remove the dirt. That removes the paint as well.

I soften the dirt and clean the paint.

If I have sticking valves I remove the dirt and residues that make them stick,

If a valve has been working fine for many years and suddenly starts to stick I clean it I dont shave the metal thinner.

That leads to loss of compression.

I have only one instrument with bad compression, and that has signs of past amateur lapping of the valves possibly to remove the dirt that made the valves stick.

I think the practice of lapping valves should be abandoned unless there is a very good reason to do it.

ROWUK

Some really long posts for a simple original question about where to get stiffer springs. Even in Germany, Bach only seems to offer 2 versions: light and standard. Third parties have other parts that can not be compared by the on line description.

https://www.austincustombrass.biz/high-speed-valve-springs-for-trumpet/
https://mouthpieceexpress.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=19850&osCsid=fnopp4r1ndjgh4loulpf415524
https://thompsonmusic.com/product/high-speed-valve-springs/

Trumpetb

That is very true ROWUK

There is no need of lengthy posts here if members did not have a disposition to replace springs or lap valves that only need a good clean or a change of oil to a better product.

And if a change of springs is really needed, if a correct spring cannot be found what then, dispose of the unplayable instrument and buy another.

If it takes a home fix to resolve an issue and keep an instrument in service then do so.

Posts should only address the original question of course but if a general issue exists that can be resolved by a post even a lengthy one is it not our responsibility as members to make the post so that the issue is resolved for the community.

ROWUK

@trumpetb Lengthy posts can be very useful when covering material that can not be reduced. I often complain about a tendency to simplify complex issues because the root cause is to manipulate instead of achieve better common understanding. In addition incorrect use of "science" as a supposed solution often leads to "lengthy" posting with no real resolution.

Your last post actually covers many issues (and I don't know why):

disposition to change or modify
need for a replacement spring
what to do when replacements are not available
threads that wander
responsibility of members

In my view, communities develop based on whatever level of communication that the community members gravitate to. The interest to post is based on the individual expectations. If the general tone (of the community) is lengthy, those interested in the topic give up after a while. If the general expectation is no longer than necessary, a different mix of posting occurs.

In my view, the issue of springs is very interesting with great need for mythbusting. As disposition and actual understanding the material leads to different courses of action, there is a lot to talk about. That has nothing to do with certain members tendency to post a lot of words.

Trumpetb

@ROWUK

Thanks

Happy to comply

Kehaulani

This post is deleted!

Kehaulani

TH and TB. The land of unrequested answers.

Seth of Lagos

@trumpetb said in Valve Springs:

Fixing the spring by making it stronger almost without exception means stretching it.

Making a spring stronger by stretching it is proven by anecdotal evidence, empirical evidence, and is also explained by the correct application of Hooke's Law.

A stretched spring is no stronger in its overall travel but because it is longer it becomes effectively stronger at the small changes of length at the extreme compression end of its travel which is where we typically use it.

I think you've got away with murder on this thread.

If you feel you need to increase the preload on a valve spring (which is what you're actually doing) then wouldn't it be better to insert a spacer to increase spring compression a little rather than destroy the mechanical integrity of the spring by stressing it beyond its elastic limit?

Just a thought from an actual engineer.

Trumpetb

You may be an actual engineer but the real life experience of taking a spring that does not perform well and stretching it, and after the stretching, it then performs well is well known, is proven and is consistently repeatable.

That should be enough for any engineer or do engineers prefer to ignore the behaviour of materials in use that does not fit their expectations and then deny that they behave that way.

Do not deny reality. I do not recall in any training I have received the admonishment to ignore reality and ignore the behaviour of materials in use.

Engineering is about understanding, engineering is not about denying.

I was prepared to say nothing more on this topic but your comments saying that between the two of us you are a "real" engineer amounts to an attack on my credibility.

Suggesting I am not a real engineer will come as news to my employers who employ me as a principal engineer, and by the way I have worked in fabrication in several major industries and have 45 years engineering experience.

I never mention this because I am not a boaster, forgive my boasting now but it is called for here.

An engineer is supposed to recognise how materials behave in service and not deny that they behave in the way they do, simply to preserve their own beliefs or to silence those whose opinions they dislike. Although I admit it does happen.

And where denials of the behaviour of materials has happened in the past, it has led to many of the greatest disasters that have befallen mankind.

The challenger shuttle disaster for example where reports of severe icing taking the solid boosters outside their designed limits and compromised the o ring seals were met with "keep quiet we cant afford a stoppage to the countdown" we all know what denial of truth resulted in there.

I will repeat, if you cannot source a spring that functions correctly then it is possible to change the behaviour of the spring by stretching it and thus changing its behaviour.

I am surprised that an engineer does not know this, but there are many engineers in many different disciplines and none of them know everything including you.

Do you really not know about plastic deformation do you really not know about stress hardening of a spring when it enters the plastic range.

I will explain it.

Once the elastic limit of a spring is exceeded it enters its plastic range and then the length extends plastically and after that the now longer spring performs elastically at its new length.

The spring material undergoes stress hardening that ensures that the spring now performs elastically and will not deform plastically unless once more taken beyond its elastic limit.

Does it really matter that the spring does not perform with the same k value if it now performs satisfactorily and gives continues service.

Why would an engineer ridicule a known solution and prevent users from finding a solution to their problem. An engineer is a solution finder. Unless of course they do not know the known principles.

Stretching a spring where there is no alternative brings a solution at zero cost so why are you opposed to it.

I will give you an example. I have a cornet the valves stuck they were cleaned rigorously and reoiled and nothing worked my diagnosis was weak spring. No new springs were available anywhere so I stretched the springs and the now longer springs perform perfectly and have for a considerable time.

Are you seriously telling me this did not happen. Are you seriously saying the springs were no different after stretching.

If you say spring stretching does not work you are living in a fools paradise.

I will not pull punches because you have not pulled punches with me. A "real" engineer would not deny reality or try to prove that reality does not exist.

Are the members in this site in the business of denying solutions that work and using heavy handed methods to force those that propose them to deny that they exist and beat them into submission and silence them.

Real Engineers push boundaries they do not deny reality using their training to manipulate the facts and manipulate people and thus force their opinions on others.

I have learned a great deal from this exchange.

The most important thing I have learned is not to bring any solutions to this site that do not fit the entrenched beliefs of existing members.

Dont worry members you wont hear much from this principal engineer any more. I will however defend myself if I have to.

And I will refuse to enter into any kind of battle of credentials to try to win points I dont need to win anything.

I dont care for winning points I care about extending knowledge, and it is clear that knowledge cannot be extended in this place when members fight rear guard actions that deny truth and reality so that nobody will ever want to introduce something new and make waves and be laughed out of the site when they try to help.

And by the way I have met this parochial attitude before I have introduced several solutions to mechanical and maintenance problems in the brass community over the years all of which when I introduced them, received heavy ridicule and were opposed tooth and nail at the time but they have now passed into acceptance as valid and useable solutions and I have seen many brass players using them and recommending them to others.

Why do people use logic and reasoning to explain why observed events simply cannot possibly have happened and cannot have been observed and try to force people to believe they did not happen at all.

I am happy to be ridiculed for presenting reality and truth, that says more about the people doing the ridiculing than it does about me.

I am on solid ground here and unphased. My instruments with stretched springs now work perfectly and reliably and I performed on one last night - perfection of valve action despite what you guys want to believe.

I have tried to help the community with a real solution that works and that has worked countless thousands of times in the past for many musicians globally. This site is heavily in denial.

It seems that members who claim to know the truth cannot possibly allow any real world experience and real world solutions that work and they dont like, to be made known in this place.

It is far better to silence anyone who dares to suggest a solution they do not know about and agree with.

I wont be making that mistake again.

Now I suggest for the good of the site we move on and stop the ridicule and attacks and from now on simply discuss only those things that certain members allow to be discussed.

The founder members of this site must be kept happy at all costs even if that means denying the truth.

We do not want after all any solutions to be presented that do not meet with their approval.

Or what about this, and this may be far too radical for members in here, why dont you try it and see, instead of dismissing it as impossible, or is that too much to ask.

Kehaulani

@newell-post said in Valve Springs:

Does anyone know if Bach sells slightly stiffer than normal valve springs? I can find standard and "light" replacement valve springs. But I would like springs that are just a little bit stiffer, faster, and less "mushy." I know I can try to stretch the standard ones slightly, but I would like springs that come from the factory just a little more "aggressive." Thanks.