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    Yamaha Miyashiro with red rot

    Bb & C Trumpets
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    • tjveloce
      tjveloce last edited by

      I bought my Miyashiro model from a friend who bought it virtually new in 2017. It’s my daily horn, the one I play with the big band. During a recent cleaning I noticed a deposit in the lead pipe which I couldn’t clean out with my flex brush. A few days later I noticed the tell-tale signs of red rot on the outside of the lead pipe, just opposite the deposit.

      I’m surprised that this has manifested so early in the horn’s life. I’ve never had a horn with red rot in my entire life, and all of the other horns in my closet are extremely old. The horn has been exceptionally well cared for, and not subjected to any circumstances that I can think of which would contribute to this condition. A friend told me that this was known to be an occasional problem with these horns, but again, I’m surprised.

      I’ve contacted my local Yamaha reseller to see about ordering a replacement lead pipe. The lead pipe is still air tight and it likely has a lot of life left in it, but I love the horn and want to make sure I can get a replacement while they’re available.

      In the mean time I guess I’ll have to play my Committee. Boo boo. = )

      -TJ

      Adams F2 Flugelhorn
      82 Benge MLP
      74 Conn Director
      1970 Bach 37 Stradivarius
      56 Martin Committee Deluxe (large bore)
      53 Olds Recording
      45 Blessing Artist
      84 DEG 2v G bugle (SCV Alumni Corps ax)
      Courtois 154

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      • Kehaulani
        Kehaulani Credentialed Professional last edited by Kehaulani

        If it were me, I would contact a Yamaha representative (not salesperson), explain the condition and how unusual it is, and ask for it to be replaced. You want a new lead pipe but maybe starting with your asking for them to replace it (do the work at their expense) might at least give you a higher negotiating position.

        Benge 3X LA
        Martin Committee
        Getzen Capri Cornet
        Adams F-1 Flugelhorn

        "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn."
        Charlie Parker

        "Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
        Chet Baker

        tjveloce 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
        • tjveloce
          tjveloce @Kehaulani last edited by

          @Kehaulani Thanks for the advice. I will see what I can learn.

          -TJ

          Adams F2 Flugelhorn
          82 Benge MLP
          74 Conn Director
          1970 Bach 37 Stradivarius
          56 Martin Committee Deluxe (large bore)
          53 Olds Recording
          45 Blessing Artist
          84 DEG 2v G bugle (SCV Alumni Corps ax)
          Courtois 154

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          • T
            Trumpetsplus Qualified Repair Techs Credentialed Professional last edited by

            One of the processes in manufacture is dipping the horn in Formic acid to soften any excess solder, making it easier to buff away. I don't know if Yamaha do this as they use lead free solder. If the immersion time is too long the Formic acid can challenge yellow brass enough to increase the chances of premature de-zincification (red rot). Speak to a Yamaha rep or contact your nearest Atelier.

            Ivan Hunter
            Player, Designer, Builder, Writer, Teacher, Repairer
            Jaeger Trumpets
            Convener of Trumpet4Fun Trumpet Saturdays

            tjveloce 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
            • tjveloce
              tjveloce @Trumpetsplus last edited by

              Thank you for the information and the advice.

              -TJ

              @Trumpetsplus said in Yamaha Miyashiro with red rot:

              One of the processes in manufacture is dipping the horn in Formic acid to soften any excess solder, making it easier to buff away. I don't know if Yamaha do this as they use lead free solder. If the immersion time is too long the Formic acid can challenge yellow brass enough to increase the chances of premature de-zincification (red rot). Speak to a Yamaha rep or contact your nearest Atelier.

              Adams F2 Flugelhorn
              82 Benge MLP
              74 Conn Director
              1970 Bach 37 Stradivarius
              56 Martin Committee Deluxe (large bore)
              53 Olds Recording
              45 Blessing Artist
              84 DEG 2v G bugle (SCV Alumni Corps ax)
              Courtois 154

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              • tjveloce
                tjveloce last edited by

                With regard to my Miyashiro, I’m happy to report that my local shop (the one from which the horn was purchased) has sent the horn to Yamaha to have the lead pipe replaced under warranty.

                It will be interesting to see what it looks like when it comes back. I assume they will not re-lacquer the entire horn after the new lead pipe is brazed/soldered on.

                -TJ

                Adams F2 Flugelhorn
                82 Benge MLP
                74 Conn Director
                1970 Bach 37 Stradivarius
                56 Martin Committee Deluxe (large bore)
                53 Olds Recording
                45 Blessing Artist
                84 DEG 2v G bugle (SCV Alumni Corps ax)
                Courtois 154

                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                • Kehaulani
                  Kehaulani Credentialed Professional last edited by

                  Please let us know the results. It might be interesting. Thanks.

                  Benge 3X LA
                  Martin Committee
                  Getzen Capri Cornet
                  Adams F-1 Flugelhorn

                  "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn."
                  Charlie Parker

                  "Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
                  Chet Baker

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                  • tjveloce
                    tjveloce last edited by

                    By way of an update, Yamaha is still working on my horn but they said that they'd be happy to strip the lacquer off the horn for me and return in it in raw brass. They indicated that there would be no negative side effects from a performance or lifespan perspective so I took them up on the offer. I'll post photos and a ride report when she's back in my hands.

                    -tj

                    Adams F2 Flugelhorn
                    82 Benge MLP
                    74 Conn Director
                    1970 Bach 37 Stradivarius
                    56 Martin Committee Deluxe (large bore)
                    53 Olds Recording
                    45 Blessing Artist
                    84 DEG 2v G bugle (SCV Alumni Corps ax)
                    Courtois 154

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                    • Kehaulani
                      Kehaulani Credentialed Professional last edited by

                      Thanks.
                      There might be no major effect on it's playability, but doesn't stripping it of the lacquer call for more maintenance than a lacquered horn?

                      Benge 3X LA
                      Martin Committee
                      Getzen Capri Cornet
                      Adams F-1 Flugelhorn

                      "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn."
                      Charlie Parker

                      "Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
                      Chet Baker

                      flugelgirl 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • flugelgirl
                        flugelgirl Qualified Repair Techs Veterans & Military Musicians @Kehaulani last edited by

                        @Kehaulani sure does, unless you like green hands!

                        Daily players: Adams A1, A4LT, F2 flugel , CN1 cornet.
                        Schagerl Raweni
                        Puje 3am(named for me), Benge pocket
                        Schilke P5-4, C5L
                        Yamaha 761 Eb/D
                        Lots of vintage toys

                        J. Jericho 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • J. Jericho
                          J. Jericho @flugelgirl last edited by

                          @flugelgirl said in Yamaha Miyashiro with red rot:

                          @Kehaulani sure does, unless you like green hands!

                          11526d9d-d49b-49fa-a59f-6b96c5b806fb-image.png
                          fugitivecatcreations.com

                          '62 Olds Studio Trumpet
                          '72 Olds Special Trumpet
                          2013 Dillon Pocket Trumpet
                          '83 Yamaha YFH-731 Flugelhorn
                          1919 York Perfec-Tone Cornet
                          '50 Olds Studio Trombone
                          Shofar

                          "If it was just up to me, I'd only have trumpet players on my show." - Jackie Gleason

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                          • tjveloce
                            tjveloce last edited by

                            My Committee is unlacquered and my hands never turn green after playing it. It only needs maintenance if you want to polish it. I like the oxidized look of brass.

                            -tj

                            Adams F2 Flugelhorn
                            82 Benge MLP
                            74 Conn Director
                            1970 Bach 37 Stradivarius
                            56 Martin Committee Deluxe (large bore)
                            53 Olds Recording
                            45 Blessing Artist
                            84 DEG 2v G bugle (SCV Alumni Corps ax)
                            Courtois 154

                            flugelgirl 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • flugelgirl
                              flugelgirl Qualified Repair Techs Veterans & Military Musicians @tjveloce last edited by

                              @tjveloce My husband’s French horn is raw brass - his tux shirt sleeves are always green. I have an allergy, and find that if I let the patina build I have more problems with it.

                              Daily players: Adams A1, A4LT, F2 flugel , CN1 cornet.
                              Schagerl Raweni
                              Puje 3am(named for me), Benge pocket
                              Schilke P5-4, C5L
                              Yamaha 761 Eb/D
                              Lots of vintage toys

                              tjveloce 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • tjveloce
                                tjveloce @flugelgirl last edited by

                                @flugelgirl Interesting. Maybe it’s a skin chemistry thing?

                                -tj

                                Adams F2 Flugelhorn
                                82 Benge MLP
                                74 Conn Director
                                1970 Bach 37 Stradivarius
                                56 Martin Committee Deluxe (large bore)
                                53 Olds Recording
                                45 Blessing Artist
                                84 DEG 2v G bugle (SCV Alumni Corps ax)
                                Courtois 154

                                barliman2001 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • barliman2001
                                  barliman2001 Global Moderator @tjveloce last edited by

                                  @tjveloce NOW we know why some manufacturers of TSOs put white gloves in the cases...!

                                  ACB Doubler Picc
                                  Courtois Balanced
                                  Courtois D
                                  Olds Recording
                                  Buescher Aristocrat
                                  Gaudet C
                                  Selmer G
                                  Courtois 154 Flugelhorn
                                  Besson International Bb cornet
                                  Ganter Eb cornet
                                  Besson International baritone
                                  B&H Sovereign trombone
                                  Weltklang Euph

                                  tjveloce 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                                  • tjveloce
                                    tjveloce @barliman2001 last edited by

                                    @barliman2001

                                    TSO? What is a TSO?

                                    -tj

                                    Adams F2 Flugelhorn
                                    82 Benge MLP
                                    74 Conn Director
                                    1970 Bach 37 Stradivarius
                                    56 Martin Committee Deluxe (large bore)
                                    53 Olds Recording
                                    45 Blessing Artist
                                    84 DEG 2v G bugle (SCV Alumni Corps ax)
                                    Courtois 154

                                    barliman2001 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • barliman2001
                                      barliman2001 Global Moderator @tjveloce last edited by

                                      @tjveloce said in Yamaha Miyashiro with red rot:

                                      @barliman2001

                                      TSO? What is a TSO?

                                      -tj

                                      Trumpet Shaped Object - in other words, cheap trumpet that does not work.

                                      ACB Doubler Picc
                                      Courtois Balanced
                                      Courtois D
                                      Olds Recording
                                      Buescher Aristocrat
                                      Gaudet C
                                      Selmer G
                                      Courtois 154 Flugelhorn
                                      Besson International Bb cornet
                                      Ganter Eb cornet
                                      Besson International baritone
                                      B&H Sovereign trombone
                                      Weltklang Euph

                                      tjveloce 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • tjveloce
                                        tjveloce @barliman2001 last edited by

                                        @barliman2001

                                        Got it. Thank you!

                                        -tj

                                        Adams F2 Flugelhorn
                                        82 Benge MLP
                                        74 Conn Director
                                        1970 Bach 37 Stradivarius
                                        56 Martin Committee Deluxe (large bore)
                                        53 Olds Recording
                                        45 Blessing Artist
                                        84 DEG 2v G bugle (SCV Alumni Corps ax)
                                        Courtois 154

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • tjveloce
                                          tjveloce last edited by

                                          I got the call. After three months my horn is back and ready for me to pick up. It will be very interesting to play it again because since I dropped it off at the music store last October I have been playing my Committee exclusively.

                                          On our way to NAMM my lead (who also plays a Miyashiro, which also has red rot) and I stopped by Bob Reeves Brass for valve checks/alignments. My Committees valves were of by negative 9 thousands (on the upstroke) on two and 10 thousandths on one. Daniel's Miyashiro was off by nearly thirty thou and as we did not have time to get both horns' valves aligned I let him get his done. I did blow a few notes on his horn and other than the fact it's a silver horn, it felt fairly similar to mine, but after months on the Martin it was quite an experience. I love the sound of my Martin but you definitely have to work harder on it. I will likely return to my Yamaha for the big band ensemble stuff as my skill level dictates that I should use the most efficient horn I can find, and the Yamaha his that.

                                          While they had the horn apart for the lead pipe replacement I asked them to strip the lacquer so I'll likely have the only raw brass Miyashiro in North America. It will also be interesting to see if the quality of the sound changes at all, although again, after 3 months I'm not sure how much of a critical faculty I'll have for such things.

                                          I'll report back tomorrow afternoon!

                                          -tj

                                          Adams F2 Flugelhorn
                                          82 Benge MLP
                                          74 Conn Director
                                          1970 Bach 37 Stradivarius
                                          56 Martin Committee Deluxe (large bore)
                                          53 Olds Recording
                                          45 Blessing Artist
                                          84 DEG 2v G bugle (SCV Alumni Corps ax)
                                          Courtois 154

                                          tjveloce 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • tjveloce
                                            tjveloce @tjveloce last edited by tjveloce

                                            @tjveloce

                                            Following a frustratingly long turn around time for having the lead pipe repair, I got my Miyashiro back last weekend. As I mentioned, I had the lacquer stripped after the repair.

                                            IMG_5129.jpg

                                            Back home in my studio I sat down and set out to run through my daily routine (Irons Method, Clarke's, running my maj/min/dom7 and blues scales) and after 5 or 10 minutes of getting my chops warm (if not completely ready) I had a realization that I did not expect; I'm working harder to make notes on this than I do on my Committee.

                                            Now, I'm a re-entry player of intermediate skill level, and I'm not enough in tune with my approach to my playing to be aware of how I am changing it to match a given horn. I know that I do, whether it's air support, embouchure, speed and volume of air, or even my posture, but I don't know the details of those details. I know that I can produce pianissimo notes, low in the register, on my Committee with gentle, precise attacks. And even though some of the note transitions (depending on valves used) are sometimes not as effortless as they are on other horns, I know how to manage my air to make them more precise. It was a shock to me that the Yamaha would be harder for me to play than the Committee, but then I felt that way about the Committee when I first got it, following a year of playing the Japanese horn.

                                            I got the Martin out and played some passages back to back on both horns, before returning to the Miyashiro for the rest of my routine. My lead suggested perhaps I had been opening my embouchure up to play the Martin, and that the Yamaha doesn't respond as well to that. I'm not experienced enough to weigh in on that.

                                            I'm not looking for any deep truths or discoveries here. Perhaps the takeaway is simply that within the broad spectrum of trumpet design and playing characteristics, the Committee is probably the one which is the outlier. I don't know that I'd have the same experience if I'd been playing my Benge or Olds for three months and returned to the Yamaha.

                                            We'll see what the coming days and weeks bring.

                                            -tj

                                            Adams F2 Flugelhorn
                                            82 Benge MLP
                                            74 Conn Director
                                            1970 Bach 37 Stradivarius
                                            56 Martin Committee Deluxe (large bore)
                                            53 Olds Recording
                                            45 Blessing Artist
                                            84 DEG 2v G bugle (SCV Alumni Corps ax)
                                            Courtois 154

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