Tuning Tendencies
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@Dr-Mark said in Tuning Tendencies:
@Dr-GO said in Tuning Tendencies:
Then he looked at me and said, "you don't even have one". I said to him to turn his tuner on. He did. I hit the D solid and his line went straight up.
Hi Dr-GO,
Using a hand held tuner to tune a band isn't in my opinion a wise thing to do. Tuners are good for guitars, and various string instruments but not for wind instruments. If you can play a Committee and not use the slides on a slow ballad or similar piece, that's great! I've not that skill. For me, I have to use the slides unless I'm playing a quick song or a modal type song where bends are welcome (Miles-ish).Agreed. That's why it was HIS tuner not mine. I don't have one. I am not compulsive about intonation, I am adaptive to the concept.
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@Kehaulani said in Tuning Tendencies:
You use a slide on C# and D? If I understand correctly, it's not that the player can bend notes down to that, artificially, but that the Committee is made so that one doesn't need to use the third-valve slide to compensate.
Back (an aside) to using a Committee in concert band, what mouthpiece are you using?
GREAT question as the mouthpiece DOES make a difference! I use the Kanstul G2. It works the best with this horn (as I have tried all my other pieces with it).
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@Trumpetsplus said in Tuning Tendencies:
ascending valve trumpet
Now that's interesting! Here's some of the positives to the ascending valve trumpet
Advantages of the Ascending Valve TrumpetIntonation - valve combinations 1 + 3 and 1 + 2 + 3 are largely abolished.
Pitching Accuracy - high F# and high A are open, Ab is 2nd valve.
Awkward Trills - ascending valve allows staying on the same harmonic. For instance C to D trill becomes Bb to C.
Awkward Fingering - ascending valve gives an alternate fingering for all but two notes.
Two Keys - the trumpet is quite playable in 2 keys.
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Great collection of ideas. The Institut Wiener Klangstil in Vienna did a study on the effects of mouthpiece backbore, throat, cup width and depth where we can add or subtract up to 15 cents in specific registers. They did not address the changes in tone when changing those aspects of the mouthpiece. We also have Dave Monettes mouthpieces that also considerably deviate from more "standard" types. Here we also have up to 15 cents plus and minus deviation.
I think that this is reason to study and document the effects more closely. I recently bought a new natural trumpet and tested it with several mouthpieces and there were some strong tendencies - the lower the pitch, the further apart the octaves - requiring body use to play in tune (pivot, upper body tension, manipulation of the airflow or tongue position).
Please remember that we are creatures of habit. For valid testing, we need several attempts (much more than 3 or 4).
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@Dr-Mark said in Tuning Tendencies:
@Richard-III said in Tuning Tendencies:
I think all that blending stuff is pretty silly as playing in a correct style for the section and group is more important that which instrument you are using.
Playing in a correct style? Style and intonation are two entirely separate creatures. If you can play all the notes (in tune) and not use slides, that great! But that's not the norm. The slides are there for a reason. Look how much less work it would be if the trumpet maker didn't need to make the 2nd and 3rd slides. Why make slides if they are not needed.
I would suggest that you take your two favorite old trumpets and record yourself playing Moon River. Next, send it to a couple of college professors you don't know and ask them if they'll listen to your intonation and lend some advice if necessary. What we hear when we play and what is actually coming out of the bell can be quite different. College professors will often lend a hand for something simple like this.Totally agree with the behind the bell and the actual sound being different. I've recorded many a practice and performance and listened back. Some instruments have issues to work around and others are just about perfect, with no slide use. Listen to some old recordings before there were slides and recording technology to correct tuning and they managed to play in tune. So why not now?
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@Richard-III said in Tuning Tendencies:
Totally agree with the behind the bell and the actual sound being different. I've recorded many a practice and performance and listened back. Some instruments have issues to work around and others are just about perfect, with no slide use. Listen to some old recordings before there were slides and recording technology to correct tuning and they managed to play in tune. So why not now?
That's a great question but I'm not knowledged enough in antique trumpets to answer. I know little to nothing about old horns. However, there are people on this site that can field this question. We have serious brass technicians and trumpet builders that can answer your question. Possibly trumpetsplus or flugelgirl can help.
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@Dr-Mark said in Tuning Tendencies:
@Richard-III said in Tuning Tendencies:
Totally agree with the behind the bell and the actual sound being different. I've recorded many a practice and performance and listened back. Some instruments have issues to work around and others are just about perfect, with no slide use. Listen to some old recordings before there were slides and recording technology to correct tuning and they managed to play in tune. So why not now?
That's a great question but I'm not knowledged enough in antique trumpets to answer. I know little to nothing about old horns. However, there are people on this site that can field this question. We have serious brass technicians and trumpet builders that can answer your question. Possibly trumpetsplus or flugelgirl can help.
Well this is an enormous subject, however we know several things: Older instruments were built with the valve slides deliberately long (flat), recording fidelity was not to the same standard as today, and we are talking about supremely talented players that could probably have made even a pTrumpet sound great!
This abstract describes a change in intended slide lengths between the 1930s and the 1960s.
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@Dr-Mark said in Tuning Tendencies:
@Richard-III said in Tuning Tendencies:
Totally agree with the behind the bell and the actual sound being different. I've recorded many a practice and performance and listened back. Some instruments have issues to work around and others are just about perfect, with no slide use. Listen to some old recordings before there were slides and recording technology to correct tuning and they managed to play in tune. So why not now?
That's a great question but I'm not knowledged enough in antique trumpets to answer. I know little to nothing about old horns. However, there are people on this site that can field this question. We have serious brass technicians and trumpet builders that can answer your question. Possibly trumpetsplus or flugelgirl can help.
I guess everyone doesn't know about the longer first and third slides in older trumpets? Players were expected to listen and play in tune. The low D and C# were much closer. The D in the staff tended to be a little flat. Each horn had its tendencies, You learned them and played in tune. My newest trumpet was made in the early sixties. My favorites were made in the late thirties and early forties. They are quite easy to play and easy to play in tune.
