Does a large bore horn take more air?

[ROWUK]

@Kehaulani said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

So, if I buy a medium-bore and a large-bore from Kanstul, I would not find the large-bore harder on my endurance and other perimeters at the end of a night's gig? They would have the same result?

This is a considerably different question.
The first issue for comparison is acclimation. We are most comfortable with the stuff that we are used to because more is automated. The brain is actually in the way of change.
The second issue is match of the mouthpiece to the different bore progression and bell shape. Remember, the trumpet is a complete system including the player.
The third issue is where will we be playing. Matching a section sound in a wind band is a very much different use case than manipulating orchestral fabric as a symphonic player.
The fourth issue is our ability to hear ourselves. Take your favorite horn into a bathroom and play your favorite excerpt, then go outdoors to a lake and play with no acoustical feedback - the same horn us now stuffy and much harder to play.
The fifth issue is bias confirmation. Our generation grew up on starting with ML instruments and a 7C and then maturing to a larger horn and specialty mouthpiece. What a crock!
The last issue is the state of our playing. Read Dave Monettes testimonials from players after getting their bodies aligned. This is not voodoo or Monette specific but unfortunately too few players and teachers invest enough here.

In my case, my range, endurance does not change once acclimated. The difference between horns is color and I leverage this to the performances benefit. Most of the historical copies are smaller bore but have bigger bells than we generally play today.

[A Former User]

Hi Kehaulani,
Yes, there's a difference. Without getting into standing waves, resistance and other tech stuff, I'll abide by your wishes and talk about flexibility, tonguing, and does it require more air.
I mainly play a MF 307 which is a large bore for jazz/commercial and a Bach Strad Bb and C medium bore for classical. My experience is that the MF Horn takes significantly more air but has a richer sound. It is NOT liked by most trumpet players that have tried it. The medium bore is EASIER to play but lacks the big lush sound of the big bore. With that said, flexibility and tonguing all have an association with air we use. The biggest misconception is that it takes big powerful lungs to shoot the sound out of the bell. This is patently wrong. A little experiment to try is to take a piece of toilet paper (preferably unused) and hold it draped over the opening of the bell with one hand and blow the highest loudest note you can. Guess what? The paper barely moved if any! With that said, which bore size do you figure takes more air to get the standing wave going?
Here's a little snippet from Yamaha:
The bore of a wind instrument is the internal diameter of the tube through which the air passes when the player blows into the instrument. Since the size of the bore determines the volume of breath required, it will also affect the timbre.
In increasing size, bores are described as "medium bore," "medium-large bore," or "large bore." The smaller the bore, the less breath is required, resulting in an instrument that is easier to play and which boasts a subtle, mellow timbre. A larger bore requires more breath and produces a rich, flamboyant timbre and a higher volume.
Hope this helps
Dr.Mark

[Dr GO]

@Dr-Mark said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

Since the size of the bore determines the volume of breath required, it will also affect the timbre.

In increasing size, bores are described as "medium bore," "medium-large bore," or "large bore." The smaller the bore, the less breath is required, resulting in an instrument that is easier to play and which boasts a subtle, mellow timbre. A larger bore requires more breath and produces a rich, flamboyant timbre and a higher volume.
Hope this helps
Dr.Mark

But I am not sure we really feel that additional volume of air we put in to the horn. See my above calculations. Can we really feel an 11 ml difference (that is just two rounded teaspoons of air)? The physics of the process, just filling the air does not add up. What we are feeling is the resistance from all the other components you mentioned your above post. That is what gives us the feeling of working harder.

Always great to have you hear to gave sound (pun intended) philosophical discussions.

[A Former User]

Rowuk touched upon the mouthpiece. The 7C standard issue mouthpiece with student horns....at least in my day..as the happy medium mouth piece of the one fits all class. When I was a kid in the 6th grade and learning the teacher suggested a 10 1/2 C. That was a mouthpiece for a child with a child's face and lips making up a kids embouchure. As I got older and ..bigger... I found that a mouthpiece with a wider and deeper cup was more comfortable for playing. Today I feel most comfortable with a 3C no matter what horn of the many I've collected that I pick up. It would seem to me...... and I'm no scientist nor accomplished musician..... that the mouthpiece seems the most important factor in how comfortable a horn is to play.

[Dr GO]

@Niner said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

Rowuk touched upon the mouthpiece. The 7C standard issue mouthpiece with student horns....at least in my day..as the happy medium mouth piece of the one fits all class. When I was a kid in the 6th grade and learning the teacher suggested a 10 1/2 C. That was a mouthpiece for a child with a child's face and lips making up a kids embouchure. As I got older and ..bigger... I found that a mouthpiece with a wider and deeper cup was more comfortable for playing. Today I feel most comfortable with a 3C no matter what horn of the many I've collected that I pick up. It would seem to me...... and I'm no scientist nor accomplished musician..... that the mouthpiece seems the most important factor in how comfortable a horn is to play.

I believe the mouthpiece IS an important quality to how the trumpet at the other end feels in response to resistance. And I cannot deny that the cup is indeed a factor. But don't forget the back end of the mouthpiece as well.

First there is that gap that helps determine the coordination of the amplitude of the sound wave as it leaves the mouthpiece and enters the leadpipe. If the amplitude hits the leadpipe at it's highest peak, the vibration generated in the metal of the leadpipe is optimized, enhancing the efficiency of the transmitted sound wave.

Also there is the throat aperture that directly influences resistance experienced on a horn. I can give you an example of this in my experience with the Jettone Studio B produced by Jettone in the 1970's AND the Harrelson 5 mm Jettone copy that I use on my Harrelson. The standard Jettone Studio B does cause notes to bottom out as one fatigues with high range playing over time, due to playing on such a shallow cup. I would personally experience hitting air-balls as a complication towards the end of the gig. That has NEVER happened to me with the Harrelso 5 mm. Why? The rim is the same, the cup is the same through precision machining at the Harrelson factory. The ONLY difference is with the 5 mm, you can fit into the main piece any throat size desired. I have a wider throat on the Harrelson Jettone copy than the original, and man, talk about resistance free playing! I have yet to bottom out on my high range playing with that throat in place over the 2+ years that I have been playing lead gigs on that horn.

[A Former User]

@Dr-GO said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
Hi Dr-GO,
You stated;
But I am not sure we really feel that additional volume of air we put in to the horn. See my above calculations. Can we really feel an 11 ml difference (that is just two rounded teaspoons of air)? The physics of the process, just filling the air does not add up. What we are feeling is the resistance from all the other components you mentioned your above post. That is what gives us the feeling of working harder.

Yes, just that little bit of extra air needed to kick start a large bore trumpet is noticeable. My experience is that the feeling of "working harder" is because there's too much effort (tension) being used to get the job done. This can be due to the horn being out of tune with itself, fatigue, or improper playing technique. Most of the time, it's a matter of blowing too hard to get the job done. A correlation to how sensitive humans are to different bore sizes would be intonation. If something is out of tune just a few cents, we can hear it.
As for the physics, as we've discussed before, the trumpet is a known system for at least the last 100 years and basically we create a standing wave "inside" the trumpet and the lips oscillate sympathetically.
You have to admit, whether its large or small or medium bore, making music with plumbing isn't for sissies.
Dr.Mark

[Dirk020]

@Dr-Mark said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

Here's a little snippet from Yamaha:
The bore of a wind instrument is the internal diameter of the tube through which the air passes when the player blows into the instrument. Since the size of the bore determines the volume of breath required, it will also affect the timbre.
In increasing size, bores are described as "medium bore," "medium-large bore," or "large bore." The smaller the bore, the less breath is required, resulting in an instrument that is easier to play and which boasts a subtle, mellow timbre. A larger bore requires more breath and produces a rich, flamboyant timbre and a higher volume.
Hope this helps
Dr.Mark

No, this does not help: Explain me the rich, flamboyant timbre and the higher volume of a Conn Connstellation.

It's a medium bore instrument...

The Connstellation and the Conn 22B 'Victor' share the bore size but have a completely other 'feel' : Bore size says nothing

[Dr GO]

@Dr-Mark said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

@Dr-GO said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
Hi Dr-GO,
You stated;
But I am not sure we really feel that additional volume of air we put in to the horn. See my above calculations. Can we really feel an 11 ml difference (that is just two rounded teaspoons of air)? The physics of the process, just filling the air does not add up. What we are feeling is the resistance from all the other components you mentioned your above post. That is what gives us the feeling of working harder.

Yes, just that little bit of extra air needed to kick start a large bore trumpet is noticeable. My experience is that the feeling of "working harder" is because there's too much effort (tension) being used to get the job done. This can be due to the horn being out of tune with itself, fatigue, or improper playing technique. Most of the time, it's a matter of blowing too hard to get the job done. A correlation to how sensitive humans are to different bore sizes would be intonation. If something is out of tune just a few cents, we can hear it.
As for the physics, as we've discussed before, the trumpet is a known system for at least the last 100 years and basically we create a standing wave "inside" the trumpet and the lips oscillate sympathetically.
You have to admit, whether its large or small or medium bore, making music with plumbing isn't for sissies.
Dr.Mark

Dr. Mark, 11 ml is just 2% of our resting lung volume. How can anyone feel this? I believe it is more of a mental feeling because it sure is not a physical physiological feeling. Medically speaking, one cannot feel a 2% change for a change in lung volume to fill a void. Again, if there is the feeling of more air needed, it is a function of resistance, due to the mental perception of increasing the air flow to match that of another instrument, and not the actual volume of air.

[moshe]

The Conn 5A and the Conn 9A are identical,
but Conn Loyalist says that the Conn 9A has the feel of a larger bore.
I have owned 5 Conn 5A and 3 Conn 9A,
and I can verify that the Conn 9A demands more air
although it is the same bore size and wrap as a Conn 5A.
All interchangeable parts.
Only difference is Copper versus Brass.

Morris / moshe

[Dr GO]

@moshe said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

The Conn 5A and the Conn 9A are identical,
but Conn Loyalist says that the Conn 9A has the feel of a larger bore.
I have owned 5 Conn 5A and 3 Conn 9A,
and I can verify that the Conn 9A demands more air
although it is the same bore size and wrap as a Conn 5A.
All interchangeable parts.
Only difference is Copper versus Brass.

Morris / moshe

BINGO!

[A Former User]

Hi Dr-GO,
The rate of taper in the mouthpipe and the bell section have significant effect as to whether the sound is dark or bright according to Bach.
Dark or bright could be seen as a free blowing or stuffy blowing horn.
As you probably know, bore size is measured by the inside diameter of the second valve slide and while a large bore trumpet may have greater volume of sound and carrying power, they require "more effort to play". Most musicians prefer a medium large bore. The question would be, why does it take more effort? according to Bach's web site. There are a lot of variables to consider such as where the braces are placed, the metal used, taper of the mouthpipe, bell size and construction, etc.. My experience has been that a large bore trumpet is a little harder to play than a medium bore trumpet and the trumpet players that have tried my trumpets (large bore) did not care for them and preferred medium bore trumpets instead. Is it a function of resistance? It very well may be. But it appears that more than one variable is at work when discussing does a large bore trumpet take more air. In my opinion, it does.
Dr.Mark

[Dr GO]

@Dr-Mark said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

Hi Dr-GO,
The question would be, why does it take more effort? according to Bach's web site. There are a lot of variables to consider such as where the braces are placed, the metal used, taper of the mouthpipe, bell size and construction, etc.... Is it a function of resistance? It very well may be...
Dr.Mark

Dr. Mark, to all of this I do agree, and thanks so much for being so open to this discussion as I hope our instruction is helping others.

Please do look for more of my quotes of your reply so I can address distinct issues.

[A Former User]

@Dr-Mark I looked this statement up in relation to bore size:
Typical bore sizes found in most standard trumpets range from the smaller .450 mm to the extra large .472 mm. The differences in sounds produced are pretty straight forward with the smaller the bore size creating a softer sound and larger bores producing louder, bolder sounds.

https://www.toptenreviews.com/how-to-pick-the-proper-bore-and-bell-size-for-your-trumpet

It goes on to suggest that the smaller bores are better for second and third chair players and the larger bores with the bigger sound are more likely good choices for the first chair or solo players based on sound production blending in the orchestra or band.

All of what I quote makes sense to me as to why there are different bore sizes and there is no mention of how one bore size is easier to play than others. If the easier for small bore and harder for large bore rule you suggest is true all student horns would be small bore as a matter of rule and discovered by manufactures back more than a century or two ago. This of course isn't the case.

[Dr GO]

@Dr-Mark said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
My experience has been that a large bore trumpet is a little harder to play than a medium bore trumpet and the trumpet players that have tried my trumpets (large bore) did not care for them and preferred medium bore trumpets instead.

Dr.Mark

So on this point, I had never made such a correlation. Now that I have a few more years of experience under my belt, let me relate some of my own personal experience.

REFLECTION 1:
My Harrelson Summit is a much larger bore than my medium bore Martin Committee. My Committee played effortless for me (it was the horn I used when you heard me in Pittsburgh). HOWEVER my Harrelson, with a larger bore (I can fit my Committee's second valve slide into the Harrelson and add a toothpick into the gap) AND weighs like an anvil plays even more effortlessly than the Committee. The Harrelson glides in and out of high to low octave like my 427 hp Camaro SS shifts flawlessly into overdrive! So from my perspective with this response, it is the efficiency of the Harrelson, not the bore difference that causes the difference in feel.

REFLECTION 2:
My Getzen Eterna flugelhorn has a .460 bore size. My Kanstul 1526 flugelhron has a 0.421 bore size. Man does that Getzen play so open and easy compared to the Kanstul. This is why I still use the Getzen for outdoor concerts. It projects greater and is less tiring to play when I have to put more volume into the horn.

[Dr GO]

@Dr-Mark said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

Hi Dr-GO,
...when discussing does a large bore trumpet take more air. In my opinion, it does.
Dr.Mark

Now my last personal reflection from this last quote response.

I have been practicing medicine for over 27 years, 31 years if you count my residency training. I am known nationally as a National Cystic Fibrosis Foundation leader and have been providing care for these patients, most with with severe obstructive pulmonary disease. The Foundation so recognizes my level of expertise that they have hired me to travel around the country to certify their over 127 clinical centers in the United States. In addition, I have been teaching lung function in the pulmonary module at the Boonshoft School of Medicine for over a decade.

Now with that introduction as to my experience in recognizing lung function, let me relate my 27 yeas of experience to what patients with obstructive pulmonary disease feel due to loss of air when they begin to experience an exacerbation of their disease. They do not even complain they are short of breath until their lung function falls below 15% of their baseline. So one of my patients with a baseline 80% lung function feels short of breath when the get to 68%. However, it is also true that one of my more end stage patients that have baseline function around 20% will feel short of breath when they fall to 3% (which is 15% of their baseline) as they just have no reserve due to scarring.

If you review my calculation above, the difference in a medium bore and large bore is just 2% difference of a normal persons' tidal lung volume. There is no physiological way from my 27+ years of medical practice and experience that I can say that a 2% difference will give an individual the sensation that this loss feels to them they have more work of breathing. Even my CF patient with a 20% baseline lung function wouldn't feel it as they don't complain of shortness of breath until the drop to 17%.

So I hope people reading this thread can appreciate and understand there is just no way for a human to feel that more air is needed for just a 2% difference in air volume. No way!

[A Former User]

Hi Dr-GO,
First and foremost, I want to thank you for your years of helping people with a really terrible condition. We've spoken many times and I find you a very intelligent and curious person. The National Cystic Fibrosis Foundation could not have found a more capable individual, Bravo!
However, you might be comparing apples to bananas. First, the psychological impact between the air needed for blowing a trumpet and just getting enough air to live will be different. Your numbers and calculations are not in question but to apply them to whether or not a person can "feel" the difference between large and medium bore trumpets might be. The ability to fill one's lungs with air vs the air needed to excite the air molecules inside a trumpet might not be comparable.
According to The Bach Corp, John Thomas (Secrets Revealed DVD) my own observations both with myself and others who have tried my large bore trumpets, different bore sizes are noticeable to the player. I'll stand by my original claim since this is what I personally have experienced and it is also what Bach and many others say. Granted there are more variable at play than just bore size but as a general statement, large bore trumpets appear to need more effort to excite the air molecules.

Dr.Mark

[Dr GO]

@Dr-Mark said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
...but to apply them to whether or not a person can "feel" the difference between large and medium bore trumpets might be. The ability to fill one's lungs with air vs the air needed to excite the air molecules inside a trumpet might not be comparable.

Dr.Mark

And to this I also agree. The feeling one has relates more to resistance not volume.

[A Former User]

Hi Dr-GO,

As you know, air is not needed to produce a sound on the trumpet. Just rubber lips or rubber bladder mechanically oscillating at the proper pitch. Generally as resistance goes up, volume (the amount of space a substance occupies) goes down. As resistance goes down, volume goes up. Like I said, there are more variables than bore size that confounds this issue but in general, wouldn't a person need a little more air to excite the molecules in a larger container?
Dr.Mark

[Kehaulani]

Science aside, , I wonder if instrument makers don't use the bore sizes as matters of classifications, within their own relative results. That horns aren't built with certain characteristics that fall within the bore-size classifications. And these characteristics apply to these given classifications regardless of how it's done?

Man, that's hard to express what I want to say! My point is that, within a given make, do the terms include certain characteristics that show the results and not necessarily the how.

So, if I buy a medium-bore Getzen and a large-bore Getzen, and a medium-bore Schilke and a large-bore Schilke, will the medium-bore horns be have certain characteristics that separate them from their large-bore counterparts?

[Dr GO]

@Dr-Mark said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
... Just rubber lips or rubber bladder ...

Dr.Mark

This is punishable by imprisonment in many cities (except for Las Vegas of course).