The difference in timbre caused by using additional valves

Trumpetb

I dont wish to start a fight or an argument but I am slightly worried by things that have been said to me, so I am asking for an opinion from the gifted players in here.

I am not trying to be funny here it is an honest question after being told how trumpets really sound as they are played.

This is the problem I have.

It has been said that the number of bends or the amount of bend in the wrap alters the timbre of the instrument and this is used to explain why the cornet with an extra 180 degrees of bend in the wrap plus a shepherds crook has a very different timbre than a trumpet with fewer bends and no shepherds crook.

An opinion I have stated in here is that if the bends in the wrap cause a change to the timbre then we should hear different timbres in the trumpet when using different valve combinations because they add bends to the wrap.

The timbre change should be significant and very noticeable when adding three valves compared to playing open for example.

I should also be hearing a large timbre change when playing the exact same note with valves 1 and 2 compared to playing the alternate fingering of valve 3 alone. But I do not hear a timbre change.

I do hear a detectable but slight pitch difference between the two fingerings, but the timbre of the instrument sounds the same to me when the pitch changes.

So why does a trumpet with two valves pressed not sound darker and richer than a cornet played open when the trumpet with two valves pressed has more bends in the wrap than the cornet has when played open.

I have been told that these large timbre changes absolutely do happen when you use the valves and I have been told there is something wrong with my hearing if I cant hear these timbre changes.

When you guys use the valves do your trumpets sound at first like trumpets and then they sound like cornets and then sound like flugel horns.

I do not hear that at all my trumpet sounds like my trumpet as I ascend, I dont think I could play an instrument that sounds radically different in character every time I press a valve. The simplest melody would sound like a bunch of amateurs playing each note separately on a range of brass instruments. I dont want that.

Mariachi trumpet sounds bright but it sounds bright to me on all the notes played, Mariachi doesnt sound like a mariachi when played open and like a flugelhorn when played with all valves down.

All my instruments and I have several have the same timbre as I ascend. The timbre of course is different at the upper register than at the lower register but that is not what been expressed to me.

I do not want to play an instrument that changes its character radically when I press a valve or two. If I have a medical condition that stops me hearing my trumpets correctly, I need to know and get some help.

I feel ridiculous asking this, but I have been told there is something wrong with my hearing so I have to ask the question.

So what is going on enlighten me on this.

Dr GO

What I hear with alternate fingerings is intonation changes.

Dr GO

For me, timbre change happens when I relax, then open up my embochure with my lower lip.

Trumpetb

@Dr-GO Thanks for the replies.

By the sound of it our experience is much the same, I too have the ability to alter the timbre by embouchure and chops changes.

I suspect that the people who have questioned my ability to hear timbre changes when using valves maybe have more acute heating than I have, but if my hearing is similar to most of the other players then I think I have nothing to worry about.

J. Jericho

I hear timbre and intonation changes with different valve combinations, but the timbre changes aren't enough to sound like a different horn. I just write the phenomenon off to "nature of the beast".

Trumpetb

@J-Jericho Thanks for confirming that timbre changes are real and present. I had not heard them and had not expected that.

Perhaps different people simply do hear things quite differently, and there can be an acute sensitivity to timbre in some people.

I am put in mind of synesthesia and colour blindness.

Synesthetes see colours and shapes when they hear sounds and perhaps have difficulty understanding those who are not synesthetes.

I should thank the member who opened my eyes to this particular sensitivity to timbre.

I feel it will be valuable to hear other members experiences in this area as well to maybe establish a yardstick this would be valuable to understand on a deeper level what our audiences are actually hearing and experiencing.

ROWUK

The change in timbre is based on the cylindrical to tapered proportions as well as the specific partial being played.
Many modern piston trumpets have been homogenised for a generally even tone. Rotary trumpets are not so "homogenised" and even a change in register creates a change in tone. Composers like Bruckner, Mahler, Strauss and Wagner even composed for the unhomogenised state.

administrator

I do like the wide range of timbre that the rotary trumpet can achieve. I hear it all the time when I watch the Digital Concert Hall (Berliner Philharmoniker).

administrator

@ROWUK this may be completely off topic, but do you find your Monette (speaking of timbre) to be more like an American or a German rotary trumpet? They do tend to have a unique sound signature all of their own.

ROWUK

@administrator The Monette Raja C is unlike either.

my Bach 229L C has a very even tone over the whole range with the typical Bach core. The only real issue is that there is a specific volume where the instrument jumps from "creamy" to "screaming". This volume is "loud" but NOT consistent over all of the registers. When I practice repertory with the Bach, I target this issue to prevent accidentally becoming too obnoxious on stage.

My Heckel rotary Bb has a dark and resonant low register, a very clear and articulate midrange and a bright high register. The sound holds together at any volume.

The Monette is a completely different animal. It can be played with core to fuzzy, dark to bright anywhere in all of the registers. Above all however is the "thickness" of the tone that creates more sum and difference (resultant) tones with other instruments than any other of my horns. I would say that it is more colourful BUT puts more pressure on the second trumpet to blend.

The most fun is when in a section with multiple heavy Monette horns. I have 2 ensembles with this state. Life is easiest there.

administrator

@rowuk said in The difference in timbre caused by using additional valves:

@administrator The Monette Raja C is unlike either.

my Bach 229L C has a very even tone over the whole range with the typical Bach core. The only real issue is that there is a specific volume where the instrument jumps from "creamy" to "screaming". This volume is "loud" but NOT consistent over all of the registers. When I practice repertory with the Bach, I target this issue to prevent accidentally becoming too obnoxious on stage.

My Heckel rotary Bb has a dark and resonant low register, a very clear and articulate midrange and a bright high register. The sound holds together at any volume.

The Monette is a completely different animal. It can be played with core to fuzzy, dark to bright anywhere in all of the registers. Above all however is the "thickness" of the tone that creates more sum and difference (resultant) tones with other instruments than any other of my horns. I would say that it is more colourful BUT puts more pressure on the second trumpet to blend.

The most fun is when in a section with multiple heavy Monette horns. I have 2 ensembles with this state. Life is easiest there.

Very intriguing. Yes, I love listening to Manny Laureano. I believe he is the only major orchestral principal in the USA who uses one, but I could be wrong.

Kehaulani

This only applies to American pistoned valves. I played trumpet professionally in military concert and big bands and in pop/soul bands and never was anal about different sounds per valve combination. The body follows the mind.

That's not to say that, occasionally. on certain sustained tones blending in a section, I might not have used an "alternate" fingering, but usually you just have a clear mental picture of the sound you want to produce and get out of the way of your physiology. Your body's smarter than you think.

administrator

I use alternate fingerings often on the C trumpet. Most C trumpeters just get used to playing E & Eb on the staff with alternates. At least, those who play Bachs do that. The tone is compromised somewhat but intonation is far more important in an orchestral setting.

ROWUK

@administrator There are fixes for the intonation issues on Bach C Trumpets. My mid '70s 229 CL is VERY in tune. No alternate fingerings needed. My modifications were extensive.

Ivan from Jaeger trumpets visited a while back. He also knows what to do. We had a great time playing duets. I still have not managed to visit him in south Germany yet, but I will be in his area this summer and will make the effort.

administrator

@administrator said in The difference in timbre caused by using additional valves:

I use alternate fingerings often on the C trumpet. Most C trumpeters just get used to playing E & Eb on the staff with alternates. At least, those who play Bachs do that. The tone is compromised somewhat but intonation is far more important in an orchestral setting.

I know that Jim Becker used to do something called "blueprinting" when he worked at Osmun Music. I've never personally encountered a Bach C trumpet where those notes were in tune.

ROWUK

Blueprinting often consists of taking the instrument completely apart, unsoldering everything and reassembling with no "tension".

Changing the number and position of the braces and adding weight to specific parts is a big part of what I did. I also have a tuning bell and changed the lead pipe to a cut down Bach 7. The bell braces are on rails.

barliman2001

@rowuk Rowuk, Ivan will be teaching a master class in Austria, near Vienna, in summer - perhaps you might like to attend?

administrator

@barliman2001 said in The difference in timbre caused by using additional valves:

@rowuk Rowuk, Ivan will be teaching a master class in Austria, near Vienna, in summer - perhaps you might like to attend?

That sounds like fun, I wish I could attend.

barliman2001

@administrator You are very welcome. Info on www.meisterklassen-gutenstein.com (very soon).

ROWUK

@barliman2001 my vacation this year is especially taxed. I will be in the Waldkraiburg (the home of Miraphone) area from 5-15 August and hope to catch him at his shop on one of my free days. I have some projects planned for the "near" future.