Is there such a thing as a “natural player”?

SSmith1226

Is there such a thing as a “natural player”?
See what you think.

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GeorgeB

Well that kid has Doc Severinsen beat. Doc started at age seven and was doing some amazing playing as a kid. I always felt he was a natural player.

Trumpetb

I have done many things in my life and in many of them I have been told I am a natural. Mostly that happens after many years of very hard work.

Let us assume they are right and I am a natural trumpet player.

I was not a natural trumpet player at first and for a very long time. It only took 8 hours a day of constant practice every single day for around 10 years to finally become a natural. That is only about 30,000 hours hard graft.

Louis Armstrong was also I believe called a natural, he practiced for 7 years.

More than likely he practiced for 12 hours a day as it was a passion with him. That is also around 30.000 hours of hard graft.

We both share 30,000 hours of hard graft Louis and I.

I have been called a natural in many other activities, rifle shooting, pistol shooting, golfing, archery, driving.

It is funny how I always became a natural after devoting many years of very hard work (that nobody noticed).

I think it takes a lot of unnaturally hard work before you can legitimately be a natural.

I find it insulting to be called a natural to be honest it ignores all of the immense effort that it takes and has been expended to be able to finally make everything appear to be totally effortless and natural.

So my answer is, No there are no naturals there are people who put in immense efforts to be become good enough for people to then think they are naturals

Kehaulani

Yes, there are naturals. We look at some and say, no wonder they're good, just look at their work ethic. But some were born geniuses to begin with, and that natural ability gives them incentive to tirelessly capitalize on it. Hence, genius first, work ethic next.

There are those who are very good who are pointed out as naturals but they're just hard and smart workers. The existence of one doesn't negate the existence of the other..

And, while we're on the subject, there are those who are born without certain skills and aptitude, no matter how hard they try.

I've worked with too many naturals, as well as been around those who, no matter how hard they try, just cannot get it.

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart-Francis Foster Jenkins

Dr GO

Joey Alexander

Trumpetb

I respect you guys enough to trust your judgement and knowledge, so I accept your argument that naturals do exist, but I will qualify my statement with this.

The ones who are unteachable are I think very very very rare, equally the true natural is very very very rare.

And of the ones in between, almost all of those who are said to be naturals are in reality very very very hard workers.

I would go further and also claim that the true natural finds it so easy to succeed that he or she finds no challenge to the activity they are natural at and most of them give up their studies before they reach the top, and seek something else more difficult, so we never truly get to see most of the true naturals.

The only reason Mozart for example would continue with his music studies might perhaps have been either because he was driven by his father or any other occupation would lead to a miserable hard working existence or an early death or perhaps all of these.

I have a huge and deep respect for those who reach the top due to guts determination and grit against all odds and less respect for those who attain the highest levels easily due to a natural "gift from above".

barliman2001

Every one is a natural. Otherwise they would be robots.

Joking apart - everyone is a natural, with a certain talent for something. It is never the same thing, and will still need very hard work to attain the dizzy heights of professionalism (be it as a professional or as an amateur). But it is a fact that you need to be born with the proper talents and anatomy for a certain thing, or you can put in all the hard work you can and still achieve nothing.

A naturally colour-blind person will probably never become a painter notable for vibrant colouring.

J. Jericho

Q. Is there such a thing as a “natural player”?

A.

J. Jericho

... unless you meant "natural" in this sense:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=giant+steps+in+c

Trumpetb

Maybe I am wrong here but for me a natural is someone who just does whatever it is to the highest level very easily and quickly with little or no training.

A natural swimmer swims very competently without having to go through much training at all

A natural runner runs very well and very quickly and wins events easily without having to be trained.

A natural shooter hits the bull easily without training.

Why would a natural trumpet player be completely different to the naturals in all the other disciplines and require lots of training before they can perform at a high standard.

A natural trumpet player in my opinion should pick up the instrument and immediately play to very high standard close to or at professional level quickly and easily or in my opinion they cannot be a natural they are instead competently trained.

They may be gifted but they are not a natural.

A natural can just naturally do it that is the definition of being a natural.

A natural beauty does not require any work to make improvements to their looks before they are a beauty, for example.

J. Jericho

I think that many, if not most, people have certain natural abilities that with practice enable them to do relatively quickly and easily what others may not even begin to be able to accomplish. Does this make any of them/us a "natural"? I believe so.

GeorgeB

@j-jericho said in Is there such a thing as a “natural player”?:

I think that many, if not most, people have certain natural abilities that with practice enable them to do relatively quickly and easily what others may not even begin to be able to accomplish. Does this make any of them/us a "natural"? I believe so.

Well said.
George

Newell Post

In another "compartment" of my life I am actually a local politician. (Sorry. Don't hate me.) But I'm not really a "natural" politician. I'm really more of a technocrat, but I get by in local politics. But one of my colleagues is the most natural politician I have ever seen. Among other things he has a freakish natural ability to remember names. I was at a campaign meeting last night and he went around the room and introduced at least 50 people by name without error with no notes. I could never do that without messing it up. He has surely learned some political skills over time, but he also has some natural abilities that are just not normal. There might be some similarities in trumpet playing.

administrator

Don’t be ashamed, “politicians” are an essential part of a functioning democracy. I was speaking with my sister one day about how well and efficient the USA government runs, especially in comparison to other gov’ts around the world. Naturally, given our present state of affairs, she was a little bewildered.

I pointed out the fact that in the USA, when you get pulled over by a cop for speeding, he either writes up a citation or lets you go with a warning, but the exchange is usually very short and by-the-book. Then, you have the opportunity to fight the ticket or pay it. The court date of your opportunity is usually written quite expressly on the ticket itself. The entire exchange is done in a known, predictable manner. There are always exceptions, but this is the norm.

In other countries, you can be stopped by police for any reason at any time, who can then search your vehicle and personal belongings (and those of your passenger) for any reason at any time. Many countries have no “4th” or “5th” amendments. Other places treat laws more as suggestions.

You could be jailed for no reason at all, without a court date or even a judicial review. Yes, I know this happens in the USA, but the fact that you hear about it in the news is, in itself, an indication that it’s the exception and not the norm. We get upset because we assume that “can’t happen in the USA.” I remember watching a documentary about men in Haiti who were arrested on spurious or no charges, thrown in dingy pits and then 5 years later were still awaiting any news at all about their case. This seemed to be the norm, according to the documentary, that almost nobody in Haiti was surprised or even concerned by it.

Anyway, that’s just my rant. Cynicism is a corrosive cancer.

BigDub

@trumpetb said in Is there such a thing as a “natural player”?:

I have done many things in my life and in many of them I have been told I am a natural. Mostly that happens after many years of very hard work.

Let us assume they are right and I am a natural trumpet player.

I was not a natural trumpet player at first and for a very long time. It only took 8 hours a day of constant practice every single day for around 10 years to finally become a natural. That is only about 30,000 hours hard graft.

Louis Armstrong was also I believe called a natural, he practiced for 7 years.

More than likely he practiced for 12 hours a day as it was a passion with him. That is also around 30.000 hours of hard graft.

We both share 30,000 hours of hard graft Louis and I.

I have been called a natural in many other activities, rifle shooting, pistol shooting, golfing, archery, driving.

It is funny how I always became a natural after devoting many years of very hard work (that nobody noticed).

I think it takes a lot of unnaturally hard work before you can legitimately be a natural.

I find it insulting to be called a natural to be honest it ignores all of the immense effort that it takes and has been expended to be able to finally make everything appear to be totally effortless and natural.

So my answer is, No there are no naturals there are people who put in immense efforts to be become good enough for people to then think they are naturals

People will say that when they really like your stuff. It’s easier and still a nice thing to say, by the way, than, “you sure put in thousands of hours of hard work to achieve this level of competence”. I get it with my artwork, “such a talent” they say, “I can’t even draw a circle or a straight line”. Neither can I. That’s why they make compasses and straight edges. And yes, I am grateful to get nice compliments like that, and take it for what they intended it to be. But I have done it for over fifty years, honed the talent that I had to start with. Not just woke up one day at age 7 and started painting masterpieces. I still don’t think I paint masterpieces, or play them either, but that’s why I keep trying.

Trumpetb

Wise words BigDub.

I believe that the joy and happiness that music or any art form performed well, can bring, transcends technical brilliance and is forever separated and segregated from it.

A simple melody performed with elegance with heart and with soul calms the fevered brow and reaches into the very soul of the listener lifting them and transporting them to a better place.

And yet to the musician as critic at the highest level, such a simple melody that changes outlook, changes perspective, changes lives, and brings to the very highest pinnacle the human spirit, this simple melody is often valued less than the technically brilliant exceptionally well written and well performed work, but this brilliant work is often less poignant and less meaningful.

It is often said that less is more and in the musical context that does not always hold true, simple melodies are often simply that - simple,

If I can say one thing that I hope and believe is true, that one thing would be - more does not always make for better.

To quote and paraphrase Emperor Joseph the second when speaking to Amadeus, There simply can be too many notes.

And in so many ways a natural trumpet player , - a truly natural trumpet player, who is largely untutored, and I liken this to a natural artist who is largely untutored, both have a natural ability to communicate to the very soul and the very fibre of the being in the listener and in the observer.

The public give honest opinion of the quality that they see and hear and in the great scheme of things if the audience generally declares the work to be beautiful it is a success.

If however the public says I dont get it or I dont understand it or similar, how can we declare it a success.

To respond with "Oh to appreciate this music you need to have studied jazz / blues / orchestral / bluegrass for many years, is I think missing the point of music, the point is to be entertaining and to communicate successfully to all who hear it. And to do this immediately without having to "understand" it first.

Without this and if we rely upon the sophistication of the audience to make our offering successful and appreciated, we might as well be speaking Latin to an english speaking listener.

For example - Lea iacta est Cogito, Acta non verba
Carthago delenda est, and then follow that up with you need to have studied latin to appreciate this, is in my opinion divisive and missing the fundamental point of trying to communicate.

Making music for the common man is I think the highest of our callings not making music for a small and ever declining and decreasing audience of people who know how to and have learned to "appreciate" our music.

And in my opinion naturals can do this easily and it is one of their greatest gifts.

Dr GO

@trumpetb said in Is there such a thing as a “natural player”?:

A simple melody performed with elegance with heart and with soul calms the fevered brow and reaches into the very soul of the listener lifting them and transporting them to a better place.

And it was so rightly stated: "Nothing swings like a quarter note"

administrator

Maybe there are not "natural" players, but there certainly are wunderkind!