Student trumpet

[Anthony Lenzo]

I brought a Besson 609 used trumpet.Now this is how I make stupid choices .I thought well it's a student trumpet can not be that good .Wrong I paid $ 149.50 for it at a hock shop played great was solid built really well came with a hard wood case , not sure if the case was original but it fit perfectly .Now my only and stupid reason I sold it was because I heard or read it is a student horn.I should not have sold it.But thinking back it went to a cute little boy whose dad wanted him to have a good trumpet .Now in retrospect I am happy for the little guy as I write this .It is a good trumpet why shouldn't he have it.

[Trumpetb]

In my opinion this is the most important lesson, we cannot judge an instrument by the label others place upon it.

Thankfully there are many hundreds of wonderful instruments out there that are of exceptional quality and capable of making the most beautiful music and can be had for peanuts.

The quality of the music we make on an instrument is a combination of three things, good technique, good mouthpiece choice, and good instrument choice.

Get the balance of these three right and you will make beautiful music for a lifetime.

I wish you well in your search for a replacement.

[Anthony Lenzo]

@Trumpetb Thank you I realized when I wrote this post that I really didnt miss the trumpet .I learned two lessons 1. just because it's a student trumpet doesn't mean it's not on par with other trumpets.2. Somebody out there may need a good beginner trumpet why shouldn't be a little boy or girl.

[ROWUK]

@Anthony-Lenzo Without wanting to turn the discussion negative, just because one likes an instrument does not mean that it is really good or bad. It ONLY means that with the perceptual tools that we currently have available, we can form an opinion (that is only valid for ourselves).

The difference between a "student" and "professional" trumpet has nothing to do with the "quality" of the instrument, rather the intended customer. Student instruments are generally more forgiving when not properly maintained. Student instruments do not "need" superior breath support for relatively good intonation. The blow is better suited to the development of embouchure and useable lung capacity. Professional instruments in the hands of many students generally offer more disadvantages and seldom a better playing experience. This is because nuance is neither heard nor felt in "early" stages of playing.

We get into this "classification" discussion when less experienced members feel a need to "justify" their purchases. What I get from the postings has more to do with understanding their perceptual state and confirmation that a serious exchange of "nuance" is not yet possible.

My stand is to get an instrument that suits the situation and not to buy something that our playing is not qualified for. I generally start my students with something like a Yamaha 3xxx student series instruments. That promotes good habits, prevents excuses and if the student stays motivated, after 3 or 4 years gives them the substantial foundation to pick something that is suitable for the NEXT playing situations.

We can judge instruments by labels, we just need them from ears and people that we can trust - not self proclaimed internet armchair experts.

[Trumpetb]

I agree almost completely with ROWUKs post, one area I slightly disagree with and this is only a slight disagreement is the contention that instruments labeled "student" can be relied upon to be student instruments.

The reason for this belief is due to much experience of a variety of instruments and knowledge of the companies that made them and why they determined to call some instruments student others intermediate and yet others advanced or professional.

This was due more to price point determination and seeking to increase profits than any real assessment of quality.

Many decades ago these classifications of student intermediate and professional simply did not exist.

There were the highest quality instruments suitable for orchestral use, lower quality instruments suitable for dance and marching band use and cheap instruments suitable for beginners so those with almost no money could afford to try the hobby.

Olds for example who were known for producing exclusively high quality instruments seen in the industry as concert and professional standard took the business decision to manufacture cheap instruments intending to capture the very large collegiate and student market by offering professional quality instruments at prices students could afford.

On the other hand many manufacturers in India and in China, took the decision to market their products no matter how bad they were as professional instruments.

I am not saying that all Chinese or Indian instruments are bad, I have owned and gigged a cheap Chinese instrument and it was great.

I am saying that some manufacturers make rubbish and market it as professional quality.

In my opinion as an armchair expert there are many "student" instruments from the likes of Olds Buescher Reynolds Conn and many other traditional manufacturers in the USA and Europe, that comprehensively out perform the "professional" instruments of the worst manufacturers offering their instruments today.

I totally agree with ROWUK that an instrument correctly designed for a student is a great instrument for a student and meets their needs entirely.

However I contend that the water has been so muddied by unscrupulous manufacturers in the far east that nothing in an instruments description can be trusted.

So what is a student to do if they want a good instrument.

1 Ask your teacher what a good instrument to buy is for your standard of play.

2 Ask a qualified and experienced trumpet player which instrument to buy.

3 Ask a good tech which instrument to consider.

There is only one make that I have advised students to buy and that is Yamaha. The quality control and the level of investment that this company demonstrates means all of their lineup are great instruments and any player can progress to the highest level using only their products.

So I say beware of the labels "student" "intermediate" and "professional", I simply dont trust them.

[ROWUK]

@Trumpetb in my view it is a mistake to bring "junk" into this discussion. First of all, who has EVER tried to justify the purchase of those trumpet shaped objects here at Trumpetboards? It simply is not going to happen.

The second issue is that it is mistaken to call them "chinese" or "indian" instruments. Those countries have their manufacturing processes under control and the IMPORTER decides what the instrument should be. During a concert tour to China, I in fact visited a manufacturer. I saw trumpets being built on one assembly line and automobile doors on the next line, lamps on another. I spoke with their sales department and they explained that their "cheapest" instrument costs $50 each if you buy a container full. That instrument would not meet any standard that someone posting here would accept BUT you can also spend $51 and get a nickel ring soldered somewhere, $55 and get a "gold brass" bell. Decent valves (by my standard) are available on instruments costing >$75 and so it goes up to a truly professional standard for between $600 and $700. So, the guilty scum is not the manufacturer, rather the importer and sales organisation without respect for their customers. What gets built is 100% what the customer orders. There is nothing on the planet that can not be made cheaper by changing the demands.

The third issue is price as a parameter for quality. This is not true in ANY industry. A good student instrument costs less than a professional one because the requirements for the instrument can be more or less automated to keep the price down and because the manufacturers can sell more of them. Nuance requires more individual attention in the USA, Europe, Japan and China. That drives the price of a pro trumpet up.

[Trumpetb]

I think it is misleading to say that Chinese and Indian manufacturers have their manufacturing processes under control.

Some manufacturers do have their processes under control, however many do not.

I have worked with a manufacturer in china who opened a factory with hopes of producing quality products at lower cost than in the west and therefore offering the very best, high quality products at low price.

Unfortunately after they built a factory and started producing product, a new Chinese startup copied their products and then undercut the original Chinese manufacturer selling substandard copies of those products and then they drove the good Chinese manufacturer out of business.

I would agree that they had their processes under control so you would be right, however they were driven out of business by a company who did not have their processes under control.

It is still the wild west out there.

It cannot be said that Chinese manufacturers are operating correctly when only a few are and many are not.

Having worked in manufacturing, I would suggest allowing an importer to force the manufacturer to begin making inferior products simply to win a contract makes that manufacturer a farce.

There must be standards in manufacturing or what is the point.

Would it be correct for an importer of Chinese cars to cut corners on things like suspension and brakes to achieve sales at low cost and the result is cars that kill their occupants.

We learned this in the west with the ford Pinto. Ford decided it was too expensive to make the Pinto safe when hit from the rear. So they just made the cheaper product.

A Chinese company who is willing to make instruments down to any price whatever that might be is not a company that should remain in business.

What response would Bach make to a music shop who demanded that Bach produce Strads for 200 dollars each because the customer only wants to pay 500 dollars for the instrument.

That is not how manufacturing works. The customer does not dictate the price.

As for taking a position that we should not discuss the junk available for sale to the public as viable trumpets simply because we in trumpetboards know better is not going to help anyone looking to buy an instrument.

I will quote the recent Bach Stradivarius trumpet offered by a Chinese manufacturer. The price was I believe 280 dollars. It was not an original Bach it was counterfeit. The materials were poor the intonation was bad.

It did however look great. Unfortunately many parents of would be musicians were taken in, and techs refused to work on these instruments.

I do not think it is wise to pretend that the junk does not exist, we need to be better than this, we need to be a shining light for truth and integrity.

If we do not tell visitors to the site where the traps are in buying instruments, we might unwittingly condemn them to falling into them.

[ROWUK]

@Trumpetb, I report my first hand experience. I did not say that the importer dictated price. I said that the manufacturers have a catalog of options and that the importer can put instruments together from junk to great. The assumption that there must be a moral obligation in commerce is simply naive on your part. That is why there are laws to protect the end customer.

What I do not like is that you derail this thread (as usual with far too many words) which is about somebody selling an instrument because of the perceived category being “student quality”.

[Dale Proctor]

@ROWUK said in Student trumpet:

@Trumpetb, I report my first hand experience. I did not say that the importer dictated price. I said that the manufacturers have a catalog of options and that the importer can put instruments together from junk to great. The assumption that there must be a moral obligation in commerce is simply naive on your part. That is why there are laws to protect the end customer…

There’s a similar perception about Lucas electronics produced in England years ago for the automotive and motorcycle industry. The popular joke was “Lucas, prince of darkness”, because they were notoriously unreliable. However, the electronics were built to the price point required by the companies using them in their products. Lucas also built electronics for the aircraft industry, and had a reputation for high quality with those, because they were built to a much higher standard and price point. So, Lucas built products that were “just good enough” and products that were world class at the same time. The various markets dictated the quality level the factory produced.

[Trumpetb]

Well I reject your contention that I am naive. I have worked in business at the very highest level no naivete is not one of my failings.

You claim there are laws to protect the end consumer and that is correct in the west. Laws governing correct practice of manufacturers have been gained on the backs of a great many victimised customers.

In the far east and in China in particular there are no such laws. The Chinese government has been busy creating such laws in recent years following malpractice in Chinese industry.

There is an obligation in business to operate in a correct manner, however many businesses disregard customers best interests and are only brought under control by government legislation. This cannot be denied.

Western manufacturers are bound by western governance and legislation. Indian companies Chinese companies, Malaysian companies, Korean companies, Vietnamese companies, are not bound by USA codes of practice and legislation.

They operate under local laws existing in their locale.

I agreed with you and you claim that in doing so I derailed the thread.

You disagreed with me and then took issue with my supporting my own opinion in the thread in which it was questioned. Is this an attempt to shut down any opinion other than your own.

By all means disagree with me but I ask you to allow me to disagree with you.

Your expertise is music, my expertise is global manufacturing, global sales and business processes.

I have no issue with you stating your position I would ask the same of you.

[Trumpetb]

I dont wish to be petulant but clearly my opinion is not wanted so this will be my last post on this matter.

[Dr GO]

@Anthony-Lenzo said in Student trumpet:

...I should not have sold it. But thinking back it went to a cute little boy whose dad wanted him to have a good trumpet. Now in retrospect I am happy for the little guy as I write this .It is a good trumpet why shouldn't he have it.

Sounds to me you have done a beginning trumpet player a good service. The trade off is you may have precluded your use of this horn to have been of some benefit to you.

Let me explain, I had an Olds Ambassador and bequeathed it to my brother that abused the heck out of it in marching band. He returned it to me decades later and I decided to refurbish it, perhaps for my own use, perhaps for resale. The refurbished horn when returned looked great but played even better than I ever remembered. I decided to keep it. It is now my third most played horn in my collection.

I take it with me on vacations as if it is stolen or lost, it is the least valuable horn in my collection (except for my Pocket Trumpet). It has served me well on many trips, business and vacation, and many travels when I was not needing to play professionally. So for this reason, I have kept it and am glad I have.