Posts made by Trumpetb

That is very true ROWUK

There is no need of lengthy posts here if members did not have a disposition to replace springs or lap valves that only need a good clean or a change of oil to a better product.

And if a change of springs is really needed, if a correct spring cannot be found what then, dispose of the unplayable instrument and buy another.

If it takes a home fix to resolve an issue and keep an instrument in service then do so.

Posts should only address the original question of course but if a general issue exists that can be resolved by a post even a lengthy one is it not our responsibility as members to make the post so that the issue is resolved for the community.

@barliman2001

That is a superb solution and that made me smile to think of how well prepared you are.

The difference between success and failure is usually the amount of preparation we do.

The community standing together and supporting musicians in need when disaster strikes, I love that they did that.

If my case requests to borrow an instrument when I cannot be bothered to acquire a low cost backup instrument might fall on stony ground.

I know you were showing that as an example that all might not be lost if I lose my one and only instrument, because the community is very supportive, but I prefer not to take the risk.

The Dickens character Wilkins Micawber, when facing a crisis stated his principle in life of "Something will turn up." was simply trusting to luck. That is not for me.

I want to make my own luck and depend on nobody.

I have a sound that I create and I can create that sound on three instruments. The mouthpiece is a modern mouthpiece and can be easily replaced if lost or damaged the horns are not so easily replaced so I keep them all, -one trumpet and two cornets.

Instruments do occasionally need tech work so 2 standbys are always useful and I dont wish to lose the sound I spent 15 years refining just because I dont have enough instruments available when disaster strikes.

The rest I keep for sentimental reasons and for flexibility in the future along with all my mouthpieces.

Chet famously borrowed instruments when he did not have one to play a gig on.

If I asked to borrow an instrument to get me through a gig I reckon I know the answer I would get, so I keep three that all play identically and use one.

Wise words BigDub.

I believe that the joy and happiness that music or any art form performed well, can bring, transcends technical brilliance and is forever separated and segregated from it.

A simple melody performed with elegance with heart and with soul calms the fevered brow and reaches into the very soul of the listener lifting them and transporting them to a better place.

And yet to the musician as critic at the highest level, such a simple melody that changes outlook, changes perspective, changes lives, and brings to the very highest pinnacle the human spirit, this simple melody is often valued less than the technically brilliant exceptionally well written and well performed work, but this brilliant work is often less poignant and less meaningful.

It is often said that less is more and in the musical context that does not always hold true, simple melodies are often simply that - simple,

If I can say one thing that I hope and believe is true, that one thing would be - more does not always make for better.

To quote and paraphrase Emperor Joseph the second when speaking to Amadeus, There simply can be too many notes.

And in so many ways a natural trumpet player , - a truly natural trumpet player, who is largely untutored, and I liken this to a natural artist who is largely untutored, both have a natural ability to communicate to the very soul and the very fibre of the being in the listener and in the observer.

The public give honest opinion of the quality that they see and hear and in the great scheme of things if the audience generally declares the work to be beautiful it is a success.

If however the public says I dont get it or I dont understand it or similar, how can we declare it a success.

To respond with "Oh to appreciate this music you need to have studied jazz / blues / orchestral / bluegrass for many years, is I think missing the point of music, the point is to be entertaining and to communicate successfully to all who hear it. And to do this immediately without having to "understand" it first.

Without this and if we rely upon the sophistication of the audience to make our offering successful and appreciated, we might as well be speaking Latin to an english speaking listener.

For example - Lea iacta est Cogito, Acta non verba
Carthago delenda est, and then follow that up with you need to have studied latin to appreciate this, is in my opinion divisive and missing the fundamental point of trying to communicate.

Making music for the common man is I think the highest of our callings not making music for a small and ever declining and decreasing audience of people who know how to and have learned to "appreciate" our music.

And in my opinion naturals can do this easily and it is one of their greatest gifts.

Maybe I am wrong here but for me a natural is someone who just does whatever it is to the highest level very easily and quickly with little or no training.

A natural swimmer swims very competently without having to go through much training at all

A natural runner runs very well and very quickly and wins events easily without having to be trained.

A natural shooter hits the bull easily without training.

Why would a natural trumpet player be completely different to the naturals in all the other disciplines and require lots of training before they can perform at a high standard.

A natural trumpet player in my opinion should pick up the instrument and immediately play to very high standard close to or at professional level quickly and easily or in my opinion they cannot be a natural they are instead competently trained.

They may be gifted but they are not a natural.

A natural can just naturally do it that is the definition of being a natural.

A natural beauty does not require any work to make improvements to their looks before they are a beauty, for example.

I respect you guys enough to trust your judgement and knowledge, so I accept your argument that naturals do exist, but I will qualify my statement with this.

The ones who are unteachable are I think very very very rare, equally the true natural is very very very rare.

And of the ones in between, almost all of those who are said to be naturals are in reality very very very hard workers.

I would go further and also claim that the true natural finds it so easy to succeed that he or she finds no challenge to the activity they are natural at and most of them give up their studies before they reach the top, and seek something else more difficult, so we never truly get to see most of the true naturals.

The only reason Mozart for example would continue with his music studies might perhaps have been either because he was driven by his father or any other occupation would lead to a miserable hard working existence or an early death or perhaps all of these.

I have a huge and deep respect for those who reach the top due to guts determination and grit against all odds and less respect for those who attain the highest levels easily due to a natural "gift from above".

I have done many things in my life and in many of them I have been told I am a natural. Mostly that happens after many years of very hard work.

Let us assume they are right and I am a natural trumpet player.

I was not a natural trumpet player at first and for a very long time. It only took 8 hours a day of constant practice every single day for around 10 years to finally become a natural. That is only about 30,000 hours hard graft.

Louis Armstrong was also I believe called a natural, he practiced for 7 years.

More than likely he practiced for 12 hours a day as it was a passion with him. That is also around 30.000 hours of hard graft.

We both share 30,000 hours of hard graft Louis and I.

I have been called a natural in many other activities, rifle shooting, pistol shooting, golfing, archery, driving.

It is funny how I always became a natural after devoting many years of very hard work (that nobody noticed).

I think it takes a lot of unnaturally hard work before you can legitimately be a natural.

I find it insulting to be called a natural to be honest it ignores all of the immense effort that it takes and has been expended to be able to finally make everything appear to be totally effortless and natural.

So my answer is, No there are no naturals there are people who put in immense efforts to be become good enough for people to then think they are naturals

I dont want to try to tell anyone that their existing solution
to sticking valves is wrong, but I am unhappy with lapping.

I do not believe that lapping is ever necessary unless it is with new built or newly refurbished valves or valves that are too tight in the bore.

If an instrument has great valves that have worked fine without sticking for for 30 years or 50 years, what benefit does lapping bring.

Players love to lap valves the forum is full of advice to lap valves with lapping compound or toothpaste or vim or grinding paste or rouge.

The forum is also full of complaints that valves have lost compression in equal measure.

Removing metal by lapping from a valve that already fits the valve block perfectly, removes dirt and residues and valve metal that is needed to give good compression as well.

The valve has not grown thicker or fatter over time, it has grown fatter simply with dirt and residues that have accreted and stuck to the valve in use.

Techs remove dirt and residues chemically not by grinding the valve surface.

If I have a car with residues and detritus on the paint, I dont rub the paint down with glasspaper or grinding paste to remove the dirt. That removes the paint as well.

I soften the dirt and clean the paint.

If I have sticking valves I remove the dirt and residues that make them stick,

If a valve has been working fine for many years and suddenly starts to stick I clean it I dont shave the metal thinner.

That leads to loss of compression.

I have only one instrument with bad compression, and that has signs of past amateur lapping of the valves possibly to remove the dirt that made the valves stick.

I think the practice of lapping valves should be abandoned unless there is a very good reason to do it.

Rowuk I think you are seeing my comments from the wrong direction as though I am recommending that if the valves give trouble just stretch the springs, and as if I am stating that all old instruments have tired springs that dont work properly.

I am not saying that at all.

I am saying that valves have many reasons that cause them to misbehave.

All these must be examined to identify the cause

If everything has been rigorously checked the valve is free to move it is clean well oiled all parts are present and correctly assembled there are no dents and no other possible cause then the spring may be the problem.

It can take weeks to chase down all avenues and when there is nothing else left then when the spring is the only part not cleaned or in some way fixed, then the finger of suspicion points in that direction.

Replacing the spring with a new correct part may then fix the problem and if no correct original spring is available and you end up fitting a non original incorrect spring because that is all that is available you cannot guarantee that it will work correctly.

You cannot expect a wrong part to work correctly it is always a 50/50 chance that it will.

In one recent case everything was adressed and the only thing left that could be causing the problem was the spring so I tried to get a correct replacement spring and there was no correct replacement anywhere in the world.

I found a euphonium spring a new stock item that might fit and work in a trumpet. It was a 50/50 chance it would work. I ordered the set of euphonium springs fitted them and they worked perfectly.

In another instrument everything was checked tested and cleaned repeatedly for weeks the old spring was the only culprit left. No new spring was available so a wrong stock new spring had to be tried, it was a 50/50 chance just like the euphonium spring mentioned above, but this time it did not work.

As a last ditch effort before either retiring the horn never to be played again, or giving it to a tech and saying this horn cannot be fixed, I took the chance and stretched the springs and it worked like magic. Problem fixed forever never to return.

Stretching springs must always be a last ditch effort when everything else has been tried and nothing else has worked.

In 99.999 percent of cases sticking valves is caused by one of the following
1 dirt
2 lack of oiling
3 wrong oil
4 badly assembled parts
5 broken parts
6 hardened residues
7 foreign matter
8 poor operation
9 incorrect parts in the valve
10 felts and corks that are breaking up
11 bent parts
12 dents.

It takes weeks to check and recheck all of these problem area and all of them must be checked for the root cause and fixed before moving on to the springs as the culprit.

If all these areas are fine then the problem must be elsewhere and that means the spring.

By a process of elimination the spring becomes the prime suspect.

That is why in my case every time I decide the springs must be the problem it it is after eliminating all other possible causes, and lo and behold it turns out that the spring was in fact the problem. I had checked or fixed every other possible cause before deciding the spring was the culprit.

And when the spring can be the only problem it makes no sense to declare that the spring cannot ever be a problem, it has to be the problem because everything else other than the spring has been checked and proven to be ok.

There is always a cause our job is to find the cause and resolve it. We do this by a systematic approach and by a process of elimination.

Techs are great they zero in on the problem by the same process of elimination why should we do anything less.

My advice to members is this, do not stretch springs as a first fix, use it as a last resort when every other possibility has been explored or fixed and never stretch springs if a new spring that is correct to the instrument is available.

But if everything else has been addressed and new correct springs cannot be found anywhere and a tech is unavailable or is not an option then stretching a spring can be tried and has a good chance of working.

I am not surprised that you have lots of old equipment and old valve springs that are not giving problems your equipment is very well maintained.

However it is really old equipment older than 1960 where the problems with tired springs surface. I have owned instruments from 1880 1921 1924 1948 1952 1953 1965 and the weak/tired spring issue hit most of these instruments. Instruments of this age have often been played to death.

Many players do not trust instruments of this advanced age with many citing the reason for distrusting them as being that they all have very poor valves. The likes of Sachmo and Bix or anyone else at the time never said that their instruments had poor valves.

I am wondering if weak springs due to advanced age and heavy use over 80 to 100 years is a hidden problem, because all the instruments I have owned and used up to 140 years old have without exception excellent valves.

I do believe in letting a tech work on instruments when problems hit.

I have spent thousands over the years on tech work and they have always done a fantastic job, but there are limits and sometimes it makes sense to stretch a spring when it gives an instant fix at zero cost.

Why wait 3 weeks and spend 20 or 30 dollars if it can be fixed in 30 seconds for nothing. If it doesnt work the tech is still there as an option.

I just have very old equipment that throws up an unusual problem with springs and has led to a solution that does actually work very well and is a useful addition to the tool box.

I see your position Dr however materials behave in a similar manner under stress.

Car springs are very strong and hold in equilibrium the great weight of a car that is very true.

As the cross sectional area of a wire reduces its strength reduces and its resilience reduces proportionally.

The detrimental effects on a valve spring subjected to the stresses of operation driven only by fingers therefore are magnified on the material due to the small cross sectional area of the spring.

It is for example possible for a fine steel wire gripped between fingers to be snapped by finger pressure alone if the wire is thin enough.

The important consideration here is if there were no historic evidence that can be examined then my contention would be pure speculation and open to question.

We however have a wealth of evidence that demonstrates the reduction of valve spring strength over time.

Manufacturers of trumpets sell replacement springs and these replacement springs are used by players to replace the existing springs in the instrument and after replacement of the old spring with the new one the valve action is improved back to the state it was when the instrument was purchased.

Why did the old springs need replacing.

Are we to believe that Bach or Yamaha or Reynolds have been selling new springs because the springs they fitted in the original factory were somehow inadequate and had to be replaced by the players to make their instrument playable.

If so why was this not spotted right away and rectified immediately under warranty

Or were the springs the correct springs when the instrument was sold and over time the player discovered that the old spring no longer performed adequately and new springs of the same design elasticity performed better in the instrument than the ones that were originally fitted.

And if the new springs of the exact same design elasticity perform better in the instrument than the Bach originals, that must mean the originals no longer have the performance they once had.

I believe that original springs do become weaker over time, and I also believe that replacing these weaker springs returns the instrument to correct playability.

I cannot accept that valve springs last infinitely and never wear out, that is illogical and runs counter to everything I know and believe about materials.

If valve springs do not ever wear out then there is no need of replacement springs, the originals fitted cannot ever be improved.

Clearly springs do wear out and need replacing eventually and Bach Yamaha etc know this and sell replacement springs because of it.

The only question is how do we determine when the spring has reached the end of its useful life and what do we do about that.

I disagree Dr

Tired springs is an expression and a description of springs that are reaching the end of their life.

Over many years with hundreds of thousands or millions of cycles, springs slowly become weaker and weaker.

Springs do not last for ever nothing does and the loss of spring tension over decades is called tired springs.

This is most noticeable in cars, this is a quote describing the problem.

"If you have a bad coil spring, that corner of the vehicle might sag more or appear lower than the other corners. This will easily be noticeable simply by looking at it from the outside.

But when you are driving the vehicle, you will have less stability from this sagging too. This problem will cause other symptoms to get worse, such as excessive tire wear and tear."

This is another quote relating to car suspension spring replacement

"When replacing tension springs, it is recommended that both springs be replaced and matched because the older, unbroken spring will have lost some of its tension from years of use."

The sagging of the suspension spring is described as the spring becoming tired and is common in older cars that have covered many tens of thousands of miles.

All springs suffer this phenomenon over time particularly in heavy use and valve springs are not immune to it.

Hi Rowuk,

Your response is thoughtful and enlightened.

All I can offer is that I do not immediately stretch springs as some might do when valves misbehave I spend weeks cleaning and reassembling the valve parts with great care attempting to discover the true reason for the problem so it can be resolved.

I then check my finger articulation and oil carefully and copiously, and only then when all other possibilities are exhausted do I then replace the springs.

If that also fails to fix sluggish and slow valves, only then do I stretch the springs as a last resort.

In every single case the final stretching has worked and it has never failed to resolve the issue and it is this that has forced me to reach my conclusions.

My instruments are as yours are, clean throughout and the valve action is when tested by techs and other players found to be of remarkably high quality as yours are.

Stretching springs when the problem lies with poor oiling, dirty valves, or badly assembled valves will fix nothing.

However upon occasion the valve springs are just too tired and simply not strong enough to do their job, and in that case alone, stretching the spring will have a good chance of resolving the issue.

I do believe that we are in agreement in all but this one area, and I agree we must agree to disagree.

I respect your position and your opinion and I respect the way you express it.

We each have a different truth and my truth is based upon my experience honestly stated and your truth is based upon your experience honestly stated and I respect that.

Each of our truths is valid because each is based upon our different experiences.

Your techs who insist on not stretching does cause me concern, however I am forced to fall back upon my experience and I am left with the many cases where stretching has worked.

I respect techs immensely and would normally accept their opinion without question but I have to go with my experience in this which opposes that view.

I will say that some years ago a very capable tech wound me a bespoke set of new springs and these performed perfectly. Perhaps the techs prefer to have the chance of selecting and fitting the best springs for the job themselves rather than have a player gamble on the results of a home DIY fix.

Such a home fix may not resolve anything and could cause other issues like for example the bending of the springs and making them noisy as you have already suggested.

That is a very professional attitude and I fully approve of it.

Please be assured I am not trying to prevent players placing instruments in the hands of techs, I am trying to give players another option that can work and might serve to get them through a gig or make a horn playable when a tech is unavailable.

Thank you for your comments.

@Newell-Post this is an excellent thread thanks for starting it.

I also have replaced springs with similar springs intended for a different instrument with good results, there appears to be a broad range of different specifications of spring that will work just fine and will replace the originals as long as the valve is well cared for and lubricated.

I think many players believe that only the correct spring made by the manufacturer will do, whereas as long as the length and diameter are close enough almost anything will work fine.

My most surprising success was ordering a set of euphonium springs to replace a trumpets tired springs when I could not find the correct ones.

They had the same diameter and length as the trumpet spring they had to replace so I thought they might be a good alternative. They fitted perfectly, work excellently and have worked perfectly ever since.

@stumac

One of the joys of buying as I do ancient instruments is the tired old springs they come with.

And it is difficult to source original manufacturers springs when they stopped making them 60 or 80 or 100 years ago. Make do and mend is what we have to resort to.

That was a fabulous result with your courtois springs and very enterprising your innovation and abilities in fabrication are beyond mine and your success confirms my beliefs.

A spring is just a spring and near replacements if we mess up are readily available from other manufacturers new stock so we can knock them about and mess with them to achieve what we need from them and should have no fear of doing this.

But it is wise to have replacements in our hands before bending and shaping experiments begin so we can easily and quickly recover if we make a mess of it.

A set of new springs costs less than a bottle of valve oil so ordering two or three sets to play with wont break the bank and if they work well or can be made to work well then we have saved a good instrument from disaster.

Your excellent work on those courtois springs is an inspirational to us all.

As for the paragraph question I use a laptop computer and have no issues so I cannot comment on how to paragraph if you use a smartphone.

@Dr-GO

K never was an issue it stays the same but that does not help matters.

This becomes a situation that requires solving outside the ability of a new spring to solve when there is no new spring available for the instrument that works correctly.

In my own case a 65 year old instrument that went out of production 60 years ago and in which the only available replacement spring is a third party spring that does not work satisfactorily.

It is always the right choice to use the correct spring, unless there is no correct spring available, I already said that.

Having tried several alternate new springs none of them worked satisfactorily and it became clear that no useable new spring was available

My choices were then to have a bespoke spring specially designed and wound for the instrument at great cost or to wind a spring myself. Neither of these were palatable to me.

Stretching the new springs that were not strong enough was a quick and easy solution that I knew would work and it worked.

If it is a choice between quick cheap and easy, and slow expensive and difficult, I will choose quick cheap and easy every time. In 2 minutes it was done.

The springs are now strong enough and work perfectly and the valves are performing faultlessly and have been ever since.

A theory that says a stretched valve spring is not stronger than it was before stretching is clearly wrong because experimental results reveal that it is stronger after stretching and many times this has been proven over the years.

Trying to prove to me that stretching a spring cannot make it stronger, will not really benefit anyone, because the reality is it does make it stronger, so I hope nobody tries to do that.

I am very pleased that you have never seen a problem with your instruments but nonetheless these problems can and do exist and if members do suffer them then knowing that stretching the springs can sometimes help and can be a strong reliable and robust fix, may assist them.

We are after all trying to be helpful to members.

Ok

First point,

springs are made of spring metal that upon deformation will return to its original position or length.

In the case of a coil spring, the spring will return to its original length if the spring when deflected has remained within its elastic limit.

If however the spring is extended beyond its elastic limit it enters its plastic phase and will no longer return to its original length.

The spring having deformed to a new length will then have a new and greater elastic range.

The result is the spring behaves as it did when it was its original length and can be expected to give a normal life but with different characteristics.

Of course stretching a spring manually is a somewhat hit and miss process and is subject as you say to variance on a case by case basis.

The principle of deformation in the plastic range producing a permanent change in the length however holds true.

Regarding the second point, in my opinion Hookes law always applies. The only question is how it applies.

The behavior of a spring specifically in its coefficient of restitution is largely unchanged however I take your point that we cannot claim that the coefficient of restitution of the spring is identical after the stretching action is completed to what it was before stretching.

Empirical research and real world examples however have repeatedly demonstrated that the valve coil spring shows a greater strength after stretching, this increase in strength is I think not open to debate as it is easily demonstrated.

In so far as the increase in strength leading to stronger spring strength in a brass instrument valve is concerned, that is much harder to establish using Hookes law.

First of all a coil spring strength increases as its deflection increases. This is a given, if it were not true a car spring would not balance the weight of the car mid way in its travel, the car would collapse on the spring down to the floor or remain at the top of its travel.

The reality is the weight of the car reaches equilibrium with the recoil strength of the spring. As the spring deflects it becomes stronger until the weight of the car is in equilibrium with it.

If we take a brass instrument coil spring of a length of 2 inches and compress it to 1 inch as it is fitted to the valve, then in depressing the valve we overcome spring tension at its 50% position.

Let us assume that at this 50% position the spring tension is not quite enough to return the valve against gravity and oil stiction.

If we extend the spring to 3 inches so that it is now 3 inches long and not 2, then to refit the now longer spring into the same valve, it is not compressed to 50% of its length but is instead compressed to 33.33% of its length.

That equates to a significant increase in spring strength by that simple mechanism of stretching it.

As a spring is compressed more it exhibits greater resistance to change in length which is another way of saying the spring becomes stronger.

The overall elasticity of the spring remains unchanged throughout and therefore hooks law applies but we are compressing the spring more when placed in the valve and valve block the result is a stronger spring.

This might be declared speculative were it not for the empirical evidence that stretching a spring and then replacing it in the valve does indeed increase spring tension.

This is easily demonstrated. I have stretched springs many times and in each and every case the spring was made stronger and in no case did it remain the same or rendered weaker.

If the theory fits the observed facts and the observed facts can be shown to repeatedly and reliably fit the theory then the theory is likely to be correct, and in my opinion this is the case here.

The caveat here is where spring tension is already adequate, increasing it by stretching will not show any advantage.

I agree with Kehaulani

I have never shoved anything in my instruments for 15 years after the first internal clean when I get them.

My instruments are all squeaky clean.

They get flushed with plenty of warm water after every days use.

If gunge detritus debris or particles are not allowed to gather and adhere inside the tubing because they are immediately flushed away, they cannot remain to cling solidify and fester.

This was the method used by Sachmo on all his horns and it worked fine for him, he flushed his horn every day after use.

It costs nothing and the manufacturer of water is unlikely to go into receivership and stocks are unlikely to run out.

I thoroughly recommend it.

I use a faucet aimed down the bell and it pushes everything out that lingers. There are special attachment nozzles that can be used that attach to a hose but my method done in the bath is quick and reliable so extra accessories are unnecessary.

Instruments like trumpets and simple wrap cornets work well, but complex wrap cornets have too much resistance and can block the flow of water easily so accessories to force the flush through these instruments will be beneficial and ensure full cleaning.

particles clinging to the inside of the leadpipe, lead to red rot and this flushing with water clears those particles out exactly like the spitballs do.

The valves need to be left in when you flush just like they do with spitballls.

Maybe it is time to consider a change.

There is a balance

The stiffer the spring the slower the downstroke and the faster the upstroke.

There is a wide margin for acceptable stiffness that will give satisfactory speed in both upstroke and downstroke.

Standard springs meet the requirements very well as long as the valve is clean and well oiled.

New springs on older instruments may be too light if original manufacturers springs are unavailable and aftermarket springs have to be used.

If this is the case then the spring can behave sluggishly and hang and this is unfixable until the weak spring is replaced with a stronger spring or otherwise made to be stronger.

Fixing the spring by making it stronger almost without exception means stretching it.

Making a spring stronger by stretching it is proven by anecdotal evidence, empirical evidence, and is also explained by the correct application of Hooke's Law.

A stretched spring is no stronger in its overall travel but because it is longer it becomes effectively stronger at the small changes of length at the extreme compression end of its travel which is where we typically use it.

In a recent example I had an issue with an old cornet that had clean valves and was well oiled and had new springs fitted but continually hung the valves.

Stretching the springs solved the problem and they never hung or misbehaved in any way again.

It would be correct to say that stretching a spring offers no performance increase at all when examined in its behaviour over its entire length of its compression.

However there is a performance increase if only a small portion of its compressive length is examined at the extreme end of its travel in compression.

This is where we use the springs compression in a valve, at its extreme end of travel. So we can see an increase in performance there as I did in my example.

This characteristic benefit only shows up in a very few cases where the spring is too weak to lift the valve and in most cases stretching a spring will bring no benefit.

I am sorry I cannot help in anything but speculation and I am sure that you already have any information I can turn up however as nobody else has answered I will do what I can.

This

https://www.brasshistory.net/Courtois-Trumpets.pdf

shows some history and might place your instrument after the balanced model

I am going to add this site which is of no value in dating your instrument but adds flesh to the bone on courtois early history and may be of value and interest in showing some of the early history leading up to your instrument

https://www.robbstewart.com/courtois-early-modern-trumpets#:~:text=Early Modern Trumpets by Courtois The history of,glean from a few early modern Courtois trumpets.

The two sites together show courtois history and quality in design

Hornucopia shows some hostory but nothing on Gustave Murset which is disappointing, however as you know it is usual to have instruments carrying unexplained and unique identifiers that cannot be identified in any history and trying to date using engraving details can be a nightmare and fruitless.

Hornucopia shows these serials that place it in the late 50's

https://www.horn-u-copia.net/serial/courtoislist.html

This is an alternative history

https://brasshistory.net/Courtois Dating.pdf

Again nothing on Gustave Murset

In conclusion I have nothing useful beyond your instrument appears to be dated possibly around the 50's as you already stated.

The serious lack of information available suggests that anything we have seen may be wildly inaccurate.

@Dr-GO

Ok Dr that is fair comment.

My personal expectation when listening to an ensemble playing jazz is that the instrument I am supposed to listen to is at the forefront dynamically and the other instruments are supporting in the background during the solo whether that solo performer is on piano sax trumpet bass or percussion.

I can accept that this is a different concept and the trumpet repeated phrases is acting like a drone to the drummers melody.

On the other hand with a scottish piper for example where we have melody and drones together, the melody played on the chanter is supposed to be louder and easier to hear than the drones that support the chanter melody or the melody is drowned out and difficult to hear.

I know what drives audiences to going wild and there are several things that do and one of the principle causes of audiences going wild is a performer playing very high notes sustained for a very long time often with no musicianship whatsoever.

99 times out of 100 just by playing either fast or loud or both will set them off, no skill is necessary.

I think what caused the audience reaction in the clip of trombone shorty was the playing of notes sustained for a very long time.

My feeling is that the audience was responding to the unbroken repetition of the trumpet phrases and not to the drummers performance when they went wild in that clip. I think they would have gone just as wild if the drummer was not playing at all.

As for me, when I said "audiences have gone wild over my performances" and you said in response "No they don't. They go wild over the ensemble supporting the performance around you". That would have been a bit difficult as there was no ensemble around me at all, I was performing a solo as the only performer.

I have upon occasion had audiences going wild over my playing high and my playing long sustained notes, and I am familiar with how the audience reacts when hearing high and long sustained playing, and this audience reacted in exactly that way. I am convinced therefore that their reaction was solely to the trumpet.

The giveaway is that the audience went wild at 2:44 immediately the trumpet ended, the band played on, so the audience went wild in response to the trumpet and nothing else.

Of course I could be way off base here.