Posts made by Trumpetb

@Trumpetplus

I am building a healthy respect for your thoughtful and well considered replies that display a great deal of technical knowledge and experience.

I would love to read your thoughts and reasoning as to why the crooks have less effect than the tuning slide.

I have a suspicion that the location of the tuning slide in the wrap may have a bearing on this in relation to the location of the nodes and where they fall in relation to the standing wave.

Let us not forget as well that the tuning slide end is not the only sharp bend in the instrument, the passageways within the valve itself also bend the airway sharply and is often overlooked.

These instruments are very complex and it is of no surprise that confusion can easily strike us when we least expect it.

It is a pleasure discussing these characteristics with you and other members too of course.

Thats an excellent reply trumpetplus.

My position on this is I agree with you, and I would argue that your reply confirms my position somewhat.

Consider the extra bends introduced by using valves. Compare that to the change in shape of the tuning slide.

If the tuning slide shape change introduces changes to the tone, and I agree it does, then how profound must the changes be when introducing even one extra bend of 180 degrees when using one valve.

Do you hear huge differences in tone and timbre when depressing one single valve and adding 180 degrees of bend into the wrap.

What of the cornets that had a replaceable leadpipe to change pitch that had a 360 degree bend in the leadpipe did they sound like a tenor horn when using that leadpipe.

Something does not add up here .

Maybe I am missing something or I am tone deaf.

But a rising scale on a trumpet whether it has a c shaped slide or d shaped slide sounds very much the same in timbre and tone as I ascend.

Does it change hugely for you when you play a rising scale.

Perhaps that is my problem, when I hear a rising scale played on a trumpet all notes sound aligned in timbre and tonality, they all sound similar to each other but rise in pitch, and other musicians must then hear notes that vary hugely in timbre and tonality and probably dont even sound like they come from the same instrument.

I have to say that I am disappointed that manufacturers in 150 years of development have been unable to make any instrument with a consistent tonality throughout its range but we are where we find ourselves.

Hi Jolter,

I understand your position and I wont disagree with you that there will be a difference in nuance of tone when using different valve combinations, but that is not what I am talking about.

Declarations have been made in the past many times that the reason a shepherds crook cornet has a very noticeable richer and deeper tone than a trumpet is due to the extra 40 degrees or so of bend that the shepherds crook introduces into the wrap.

So if that is true, that 40 degrees of extra wrap makes a noticeable richening of tone then adding more bends must make the change even more profound. Double the wrap bend must double the tonal change, ten times the wrap should make ten times the tonal change.

So if the 40 degrees of extra bend substantially makes the tonal difference between cornet and trumpet what might an extra 180 degrees make tonally and what would an extra 360 degrees make and what would an extra 540 degrees of bend make.

an extra 540 degrees is 12 times the amount of bend than the shepherds crook alone introduces.

If it is true that 40 degrees of extra bend introduces very noticeable richness and darkness to the tone, then simply depressing three valves should change the tone massively and yet it does not.

Are you really suggesting that a trumpet played open sounds like a trumpet and with three valves depressed it suddenly sounds like a trombone or a euphonium and with two valves it sounds like a flugel and with one valve it sounds like a cornet.

The difference in tone should be expected to be huge, not slight.

The argument is that an increase in bend of the wrap caused by the shepherds crook is responsible for the richness of tone of a cornet. That makes no sense to me and I hope you might revue my words based on this.

Or is my hearing so bad that I cannot tell the difference tonally between a trumpet and a trombone.

Bends alone do not change tonality immensely or hugely, I am sure of this, but if you are hearing immense and huge differences in the timbre and tone of your instrument when using different valve combinations I would be very interested in exploring why that might be.

As far as I am concerned the instrument should sound very much the same when playing different notes.

Or maybe we are simply talking about different things and there is a slight misunderstanding between us.

May I ask are you supporting the view that the 40 degrees of extra bend in the wrap that the shepherds crook introduces, is responsible for the tonal difference between cornet and trumpet. If not then we are not in disagreement at all.

Thanks for the warm welcome trumpetplus

I had no intention of causing trouble I just saw something that clashes with my experience

As for experiments there can be experimentation without formal experiments.

The experimentation I speak of is many side by side comparisons of instruments of varied and various types and of varied construction with valve blocks in a variety of positions.

Never have I found that the instrument varies in tone richness as various valve combinations are used, as it should do if the amount of bend in the tube determines the richness of tone. I think that theory is clearly incorrect.

I have seen tones varying in instruments that have valve blocks in different locations in the tubing, sometimes in support of the theory but at other times in complete opposition to the theory and that is not how a good theory should behave. It should be consistent reliable and predictable.

If there is a theory then that theory must be supported consistently by experience and be repeatable and perform the same way every time, any failure of the theory either makes the theory incorrect or calls for further investigation at the least.

If the facts dont support the theory then either the theory is not correct or there must be another explanation.

I stand by my words, I presume your contention is my opposition to the statement that a valve block position closer to the bell yields darker tones than a valve block positioned further away from the bell, and my opposition to increased bends in the tube yielding darker tones.

I have given my reason for rejecting the theory for both, I have seen instruments with valve block closer to the bell with brighter tones than instruments with valve block further away.

In my experience from observations with instruments of all types and a lot of different designs, not as much experience as some have and certainly not as much as a good tech might have but enough experience that I should be able to see clearly whether or not the theory holds true and gives predictable results, and in my view it doesnt.

I have seen however countless examples of correlations between
heavy instrument and dark tones
mouthpiece changes and predictable tone changes
bell shape and predictable tone changes
rim shape and predictable tone changes
oral cavity changes and predictable tone changes
embouchure changes and predictable tone changes

the theories all hold up well in these other areas we can make predictable changes and these changes result in the expected brighter or darker tones.

What I will say is this, under certain circumstances of design and size of bell flare in a cornet for example the valve block must by design be closer to the bell, but if the bell flare is such that the horn plays darkly, the darkness may be interpreted as being a characteristic of the valve block position, whereas it is in truth a characteristic of the bell flare.

Could this go some way to explain why valve block position appears to affect darkness in cornets compared to darkness in trumpets.

We can compare like for like in trumpets as I have done but cornet to trumpet is not a like for like comparison. Is there a way of comparing 2 cornets with different valve block positions that might show the effect of moving the valve block.

And critically how much does that contribute to the tone.

Apologies for the length of this post

I got a lot more from your earlier comments kehaulani, but thanks for commenting

I have done a great deal of experimentation and I do not accept that the position of the valves has any relationship to the tone.

If that were the case then my peashooter with valves closer to the bell should be darker sounding than my balanced model with valves further away from the bell.

Nothing could be further from the truth the peashooter with small and thin bell flare sounds much brighter than the balanced model.

I do not accept that the number of bends in the wrap has any effect on the tone.

If that were the case then when I play open the tone would be much brighter than when playing with all valves down.

I am after all considerably increasing the amount of bend in the tubing when using the valves. 360 degrees played open and fully 900 degrees of bend with all three valves depressed, and no change whatsoever to the tone.

What does affect the tone is all of the following:-
the shape of the bell flare,
the size of the bell,
the thickness of the tube wall,
the material the instrument is made of,
the position of the braces,
the weight of the valve block,
the presence or not of a rim wire,
the mouthpipe shape and design,
the mouthpiece weight,
the mouthpiece size,
the mouthpiece cup shape,
the mouthpiece cup depth,
the size of the oral cavity,
the embouchure,
the tonal concept in the head of the player,

These are the real differences between trumpet and cornet

I would bet my life and all I own on this.