Posts made by Trumpetb

you are my wife

I am every day confronting this question and I have no answer that will either be convincing or satisfying.

Perhaps it is easier to declare who has "it" instead or trying to define what "it" is

Miles had it
Chet had it
Louis had it
Bix had it
African tribal music has it
Japanese folk music has it
Japanese drumming has it
Zen flute playing has it
Whale-song has it
many more than I can list here have it

It is everywhere if we look for it and yet not everyone has it, although it appears that all are capable of it if they choose to be.

Often we search for it and reach for it and it eludes us but the pull is so strong that we never give up the search for it for in the reaching for it we do sometimes attain it and when that happens we are uplifted and listeners are fulfilled and they are filled with wonder.

It is never an intellectual exercise but instead it is an emotional connection and the notes we play are the vehicle.

Musicians who can attain it look into their own souls and use their skills to represent what they find there, the listener receives it and if the musician has attained it, it reaches in, to the very heart and soul of the listener.

Then the listener begins to dance or they begin to weep or they are transported to a different place a better place, but always they are moved beyond words.

Words are sometimes used to try to describe it, words such as hypnotic transcendental meditative but they all seem to fall short.

I have been lucky enough to have witnessed it many times but I have never been able to quantify or define it.

Always it arrives when it is not looked for as though it is in hiding and must be tempted out like a frightened deer or a mouse, but seeking it out and trying to illuminate and bring it out scares it away.

It is an experience like dance and is fleeting and is gone before it can be annotated, can we annotate a dance can we annotate colour can we annotate fear can we annotate pleasure, we can perhaps annotate the actions of something, for sure we can annotate a note in a stave or a phrase but the emotional experience of it cannot I think be annotated.

So what is music, perhaps all we can really say is this - Music is an emotional experience that envelops us and moves us to a different and often a better place.

@Dale-Proctor

That is very interesting and very revealing Dale

I guess that examining the mid 1800's at which time, with the recent invention and application of the perinet valve in 1838, the recent creation of the cornet and the lack of any standardisation in pitch makes for huge uncertainties as to what is and what is not a true authentic cornet sound.

I think that we in the modern age are so used to very well designed and well built instruments that we assume that all earlier instruments must have played as easily and as well as our modern instruments do.

The truth is that there were many challenges and many failures in those early days of instrument design and this made playing on these early instruments quite difficult compared to todays modern instruments.

Perhaps we should not take from this any conclusions about instrument design in those early years of cornet/trumpet, but instead simply marvel at the muscianship and abilities of the players of the day in being able to play those early instruments as well as they did in the face of what are in todays terms monumental challenges.

Life today must be easy compared to life in the mid 1800's, and we truly stand musically today on the shoulders of giants.

Additionally I think we should recognise the musicianship and commitment of those modern players like yourself Dale who rise to the challenge to play successfully on those difficult early instruments and are able to recreate the authentic period music on authentic period instruments.

About time I said HI

Ive been playing solo and in small ensembles for quite a while.

I feel I am improving but whenever I am recorded and I hear the sound I create it makes me want to throw up.

Nonetheless people tell me they like what I do so I will keep at it. So I guess you are stuck with me for a while at least and maybe along the way I will learn something in these hallowed halls.

Agreed Dale I know that lipping into tune can kill the overtones and upper harmonics, whereas using the third slide adjustment ring if it exists helps preserve the upper harmonics

There is a question in my mind that you may be able to answer.

The Civil war period instruments were typically built without third slide adjustment rings and I have heard that the Civil war cornets were difficult to make sing and need a different approach to playing.

Forgive me I have not played on one I am relating a third party opinion here, which is always risky.

Is it true in your opinion that civil war era cornets were more difficult to resonate and make sing compared to modern cornets, and do you think this could be attributed to their design which has fixed third slide to allow for easier lipping of notes into tune.

@ J, Jericho

Good job you were here to stop me looking like an idiot (sadly I can look like an idiot very easily)

Thank you for your correction, I guess my fingers move quicker than my brain sometimes.

I have gratefully edited the post

respect to you sir and many thanks

Old thread I know but interesting.

I think I can bring something to this discussion.

Firstly no trumpet really needs the adjustable third slide, all musicians have the ability to lip notes into tune.

The cornets and trumpets from 1850 through to 1900 and beyond had no adjustable third slide and players simply learned to lip the notes that were out of tune.

Secondly the mouthpiece horn combination affects how lippable the notes are, I slipped a jazz mouthpiece into an instrument that centred notes well with other mouthpieces and suddenly the notes were sliding all over the place, playing a good pitch became difficult but with effort was achieve-able.

Thirdly the Martin Committee has a reputation for being easy to lip and the notes dont centre on this instrument as strongly as on other instruments.

Moreover an orchestral player does not want an instrument that is hard to centre the notes, his or her task is difficult enough without having to expend extra effort just to play in tune.

I dont think you will find many Martin Committees in orchestras for this reason.

The committee however is perfect for jazz players with its easily bent and lipped notes but it takes a strong and talented player to master the Committee, It does not surprise me in the least that Kehaulani has mastered the Committee.

To answer the question then, trumpets are already made so that the adjustable third slide is unnecessary, if you can handle them in that manner, but beginners, players with weak embouchure, players who play legit, orchestral players, all these players need easily and strongly slotting instruments that have an adjustable third slide in order to play well and to meet their playing needs.

Fully compensating instruments have been made in the past of course as already mentioned, that slot well and dont need an adjustable third slide to do it, but we jazz blues players need the ability to slide the note roll off it fall off it and gliss so we need the committee and instruments like it that make those embellishments easier.

I would suggest that if a player has an aspiration to play jazz then the ability to lip notes and dispense with the adjustable third slide is a necessary skill to learn until it becomes second nature to play on pitch without adjusting the slide and then they can choose when to use it like kehaulani does.

It is about becoming a well rounded more complete player.

If you like Earth Wind and Fire you might like C.C.S.

Led by Alexis Korner, need I say more.

And by the way I agree Earth Wind and Fire were the cats bananas

For me it is simple

Playing
Listening
Hearing

Listening and hearing are not the same, listening allows me to hear what I am doing in fine detail and in the hearing I understand what I am failing in and what needs immediate attention.

The playing gets me warmed up and ready to play well the correcting of the errors I hear in my playing gets me ready to play to my highest level.

I want to eradicate the mistakes as soon as possible or I end up practicing errors and if I practice errors without immediately correcting them, then I consolidate bad habits and poor playing.

I want to consolidate good habits not bad habits.

If my eyes do not deceive me that would be the 22b New York Symphony early model with top sprung valves.

That is a peach and very desirable.

I feel your pain Dale and I know they can be quite tricky.

They changed the design of the valves and the guides many times and made it slightly simpler as the decades moved on.

The early valve guides had the pegs in different locations in the valve blocks and that made it difficult, later they made the pegs all in the same location so that was slightly better but the guides could still jam and be problematic to position correctly.

Once you have the knack I find them simple to align and fit.

I prefer the Crysteel valves now to the more regular top sprung valves with internal springs in a cage that are in common use.

For all members of the Conn club who own and play instruments with Crysteel clickless valves a word of warning.

Beware of the cork on the top of the valve moving around and causing the valve to stick or hang.

The cork should be glued on to the top of the valve for trouble free valve operation.

I do agree with the sentiments and the arguments opposing the locking of threads but I would like to say a word or two in support of Barliman2001

It is clear to me that Mr Barliman wants to act in the best interests of the site but it is difficult to see what that might be.

The site is filled with ancient threads dated 2019 that see little or no action since 2019 as though the site suddenly took a nosedive in that year and is stuck now in a time warp.

The temptation to clean things up so that the site appears to be fresh dynamic and appealing to new members and inviting of new posts must be a strong one so I would agree that some kind of action might be helpful but I have no idea what the most appropriate action might be,

Mr Barliman has taken action and I support that decision to act although I have no idea what the best way forward might be.

The members have spoken now and Mr Barliman has shown he is receptive to members opinions and I cannot ask for more than this.

I am sure that together we will find a good solution to this thorny question that will be acceptable to all the members and presents the site well.

Speaking personally I really like the site the members and the organisation so I live in hope and have a measure of confidence that a good way forward will emerge from these discussions.

@Dr Go

No the original Olds Super is an early model of Super and was quite different from the slightly later version of the Super manufactured a few years later.

The change was around 1938 and 1939.

There were several changes, the tone ring was much wider on the earlier model, the bell mandrel was different between the models and the angle of the second slide was flipped from forward to back.

I have no idea why the bell mandrel was changed and what difference that made sonically, but I suspect the two instruments play differently, much as the LA model of Ambassador and the Fullerton model of the Ambassador also play quite differently.

Robb Stewart in his excellent web page on the subject goes into great detail about the specific changes to the Super model in those years with images of both models of Super showing the changes although the bell mandrel change is not an obvious one from the images.

https://www.robbstewart.com/wright-hall-quinby-soprano-1

I deeply suspect that the earliest Super was based upon closely copying the pre war french Besson trumpet as many manufacturers did at that time - I believe that Bach Conn HN White Shilke among others closely copied the pre war french Besson design.

Most of the other manufacturers copies of the Besson design had rear facing second slide but the original Olds Super was unusual in more faithfully copying the forward facing second slide in that first incarnation of the Super.

Interestingly the Mendez which was later claimed to be a close copy of the french Besson had the rear facing second slide as all the Bb Olds instrument models had by that time.

Even Besson swapped the slide direction round in different instruments with some forward some rearwards and some straight out so there was no real consistency here even in Besson.

Hornucopia shows several french Besson Brevetes with second slides pointing in all directions and many towards the bell as in the early Super.

The water however gathers in this configuration and is not easily dumped and all subsequent models post 1939 in the Olds lineup have rear facing second slide possibly to allow for more efficient clearing of moisture during performances.

There was often no other option than to yank the second slide to clear water satisfactorily in the forward facing design or do the instrument spin method both of which are less than desirable during a performance.

Besson themselves reversed the second slide between different models as earlier discussed although the Besson manufacturing history is somewhat confused with Besson uk and Besson France both selling Bessons but with Besson France manufacturing the parts that were assembled in England and then sold as english Bessons often with english valve blocks fitted and not french valve blocks.

It is even said that stashes of Besson instruments that were hidden from Nazis when France was under German occupation were being discovered for many years after the second world war and released into the market with serial numbers that were inconsistent so we cannot assign years to instruments around that time. But that is another story.

I dont believe this is likely to be a conversion from a Bb

It looks like the spit valves on this instrument are more conventional spit valves typical of the Special, but the Ambassador spit valves are underslung spit valves.

The end of the mouthpiece receiver is of course Fullerton Ambassador, being hexagonal.

The second slide appears to be set at a right angle to the body of the instrument whereas on Ambassadors the second slide is angled strongly back towards the mouthpiece receiver.

Due to these differences I would guess that it is not a conversion from a Bb instrument but is an independently designed instrument.

But this is supposition on my part.

For me the right angle of the second slide most strongly says this is a different instrument than a Bb Ambassador.

Olds as far as I am aware only changed the angle of the second valve in one other instrument and that was the Super, the very early supers had the slide angled towards the bell and later supers reversed this and angled the slide towards the receiver as in the mendez and the recording.

I am unaware of any other Olds with straight out second slide.

This straight out slide perhaps was needed if this was built as an Eb and required a shorter second slide than a Bb and tooling made it convenient to set the slide straight out.

I would defer to more knowledgeable members on this however.

Old thread I know but I just saw this and had to speak.

This use of old bullets or perhaps the brass spent cartridge cases to manufacture a brass instrument is for me a wonderful use of old brass that has a bad history and could perhaps be healing for the community.

I wholeheartedly approve of such an enterprise.

I see a parallel here with Besson post 1918.

It is believed and well publicised that after 1918 brass was in very short supply in Europe in general and in France in particular, having been swallowed up in armaments manufacture.

Besson it has been said adopted a policy of acquiring all the spent brass shell cases that were littering the fields of battle and the trenches.

These shell cases were then used to manufacture their instruments.

The instruments played with a beautiful sweet tone which has in part been attributed to the characteristic annealing effect of the exploding propellant when the guns were fired.

To me both physically and emotionally the two enterprises, Josh Landress use of modern spent cartridges and the Besson use of spent shell cases fit well together.

If this were nothing more than an excellent and peaceful use of war material that would be enough but I feel that it demonstrates that we can turn away from war and move on and this re-use of these materials illuminates a beacon of hope that we can bring order from chaos and healing from misery.

This is not cheap advice

This is expensive advice paid for in full from a lifetime of study of growth and of effort

The words reek of quality and importance.

Thank you for sharing those very wise words

It was a coincidence or rather an observed correspondence or alignment.

Having said that I believe all things are connected in one way or another and these connections are not always obvious but it takes sometimes wisdom or clarity of thinking to understand and reveal the connection.

We all if we are lucky can contribute to the accumulated knowledge and reveal the synergies that surround us.

Thank you for your contribution.

@ Trumpetplus

I like your concept and postulation.

I am not going to claim any expertise so my words are just speculation, however this is my thinking.

Sound travels in waves, radio travels in waves, radar also travels in waves so we can perhaps compare the behaviour of all these waves to your concept and see if there is any agreement.

Light is reflected by a reflective surface, radio waves are reflected by the heavyside layer allowing them to travel around the earth, radar waves which for many decades were assumed to only travel in straight lines have been discovered to be reflected in a similar manner to radio waves and incoming targets can be detected over the horizon.

Why then should we assume that sound waves cannot act in a similar manner to these other waves and be reflected by a suitable surface.

Light, radio, radar, and sound, all can be reflected by a suitable dish reflector so we know they all can be reflected.

Furthermore light waves pass along the length of an optical fibre and around the bends in that fibre by bouncing around within the fibre exactly as you have laid out in your drawing. I find this to be compelling evidence that you are correct.

Your concept therefore neatly obeys the behaviours of many other kinds of waves and aligns with other work and knowledge of the behaviour of these many other waves.

We cannot prove this concept without extensive research of course but it looks right and has a simplicity and beauty.

Simplicity and beauty is very important in nature, with the DNA double helix for example, before Watson and Crick the explanations offered of the structure of DNA were all excessively complex and convoluted in their attempt to explain a complex system. Watson and Cricks double helix was both simple and beautiful.

Simple and beautiful in nature is often right.

For all these reasons I choose to believe your concept.

Thank you for sharing it.

@Trumpetplus

I am building a healthy respect for your thoughtful and well considered replies that display a great deal of technical knowledge and experience.

I would love to read your thoughts and reasoning as to why the crooks have less effect than the tuning slide.

I have a suspicion that the location of the tuning slide in the wrap may have a bearing on this in relation to the location of the nodes and where they fall in relation to the standing wave.

Let us not forget as well that the tuning slide end is not the only sharp bend in the instrument, the passageways within the valve itself also bend the airway sharply and is often overlooked.

These instruments are very complex and it is of no surprise that confusion can easily strike us when we least expect it.

It is a pleasure discussing these characteristics with you and other members too of course.