Circular Breathing

[Dr GO]

The lesson plan I had when I studied under Claudio Roditi was to develop an improv voice by transcribing the solos of other performers. I chose to transcribe sax solos over trumpet solos so I could achieve a uniqueness of voicing uncharacteristic of the trumpet. Claudio loved it.

One of the skills of sax players I observed was their use of circular breathing, so I have incorporated that skill in my playing style: My Direction in this thread is to ask trumpet players out there, how many of you use this skill and how do you apply it.

[Dr GO]

I will start the discussion by noting I love using this skill with playing the blues. I typically start my solo with the circular breathing for at least one chorus, perhaps two of the blues tune, then explode into a flourish of runs off the same breath.

Here is a facebook link to one of my recent performances that was caught by an audience member at the beginning of one of my blues solos. Unfortunately the video is too short to show the transition of the solo after the circular breathing phrase, but it still gives an idea of the process:

https://www.facebook.com/1368582191/videos/pcb.10229092433279995/1182437605670330

[administrator]

Circular breathing to me is a bit of an "esoteric" technique, yet a part of me wishes I could pull off what Sergei Nakariakov can do. I have personally witnessed him play the Haydn Cello Concerto transcription on flugelhorn, where he double-tongues while circular breathing. It was flawless and utterly breathtaking.

[Kehaulani]

Caveat. I have nothing against circular breathing or those who use it.

I have never encountered a legit piece I was playing that required circular breathing, although I admit it can come in handy. Wind instruments are just that, wind. And any mature writer should take that into account and write accordingly.

I realise that there may be some contemporary Musics or solo pieces that use circular breathing but they are an anomaly.

Some ethnic Musics require it. I'd hate to try to get through some Eastern European music without it. But, since Homey don'r play dat, I default to its not being necessary for me.

As far as Jazz, if you're taking a solo, you can control the phrases and where to breathe, so it's just what you want. Aesthetically, if it fits and you want it, do it. On the other hand, I don't need no stinking Kenny G hotdogging.

[Dr GO]

@kehaulani said in Circular Breathing:

Caveat. I have nothing against circular breathing or those who use it.
On the other hand, I don't need no stinking Kenny G hotdogging.

I believe Kenny G holds the world record for the longest held note at 59 minutes.

I believe that some military forces use that recording as a method of torture.

[GeorgeB]

I never really learned how to circular breathe. I'm sure there are times when it would come in handy. But honestly, at my age I am happy just being able to breath in a straight line.
George

[Trumpetb]

This ability to play a single sustained note for 59 minutes is a game changer for me,

I thought I had too few tunes in my set when gigging, I see now that I dont need more tunes I just need longer notes.

Circular breathing opens the door to 30 minute notes for me and a larger paycheck for less effort.

I could make a tune last 24 hours with this approach.

I may pick up the drum sticks and repeat the 2370 beats per minute of that 10 year old who beat the old record, Who needs to learn rhythm when you can kick out almost 3000 beats per minute.

This performance and the 59 minute sustained note are clearly pushing the boundaries of music.

Some say we have lost real music to the sideshow but I say I cant wait until we have the 3 hour sustained note and the 10,000 beats per minute drum solo,

In your dreams Buddy Rich and Miles you guys hadnt got a clue about real music.

[Kehaulani]

"I thought I had too few tunes in my set when gigging. I see now that I don't need more tunes, I just need longer notes."

LOL!

[Dr GO]

Tastefully applied by Trombone Shorty from 0:43 to 2:41 (almost 2 minutes of circular breathing). Check out the reaction of the audience. This is what I experience in crowd reaction as well.

[a.j.trumpet]

Apart from a party trick or to impress young students I have found it is useful in developing and understanding mouth cavity compression and shape. Malte Burba talks about its benefits in his Masterclass video.

I also am impressed by Trent Austin's use of it during long bop lines. He seems seemless.

[Trumpetb]

@a-j-trumpet

That is very interesting a j I have tried to find the Burba video based on your post but have only found a german version.

I am keen to understand Burbas mouth cavity method technique and reasoning.

Can you point me to an english version or failing that can you explain Burbas thoughts and approach to mouth cavity its purpose its effect and its application.

I use mouth cavity control myself but I suspect there may be some significant differences between my mouth cavity approach and Burbas mouth cavity approach as these two approaches developed independently of each other and possibly solve quite different problems.

[trptdude]

The great Clark Terry used circular breathing routinely. Sometimes just to play long phrases, which wasn’t noticeable unless you are really paying attention; and sometimes in a very obvious way, like playing an entire chorus of 16th notes with no breath. The wonderful Jimmy Owens has also used circular breathing quite a bit, even as a young player in the early 70’s. As a teenager in the 70’s I used to practice circle breathing on a middle G for 30 minutes daily just as part of my warmup - so it’s really not something new to the trumpet….

And Kenny G’s “record” was long ago surpassed by Rahsaan Roland Kirk, who was witnessed playing for 2 hours, 21 minutes in London while circular breathing. And you can bet he was playing music, not just holding one note for an hour like Mr. G.

[Trumpetb]

I am going to add this.

Circular breathing not only makes no sense to me but appears to be in opposition to what I want to achieve.

I explain music as beginning with playing notes then phrases then playing the spaces between the notes.

To be understood and have the most impact music needs spaces between notes or it begins to make no sense

Like talking
Icannotbegintoundertsndwhatmusicmightmeanifspacesbetwennotesdonotexist

In throwing the spaces away are we not throwing the baby out with the bathwater just to prove how technically brilliant we are.

I dont want to impress I want to communicate, and I achieve that with notes and with using spaces between notes.

[GeorgeB]

I've never tried to learn it. I'm sure circular breathing is something that may come in handy sometime or other, but I have more important things to work on with my horns.
George

[Dr GO]

@trumpetb said in Circular Breathing:

I am going to add this.

I dont want to impress I want to communicate, and I achieve that with notes and with using spaces between notes.

I would counter by noting that impressing increases awareness which only enhances the art of communication.

Check out the Trombone Shorty clip. The audience goes wild with their response to his circular breathing. What they heard enhanced their appreciation. That sir is the very basis of communication.

[Trumpetb]

I would counter that there was nothing communicated throughout this clip between 0:43 to 2:41

0:43 to 0:50 was the exactly same as 1:10 to 1:30 and exactly the same as 2:10 to 2:30 in content it was the musical equivalent of repeatedly saying

Four score and 17 years ago
Four score and 17 years ago
Four score and 17 years ago
Four score and 17 years ago
Four score and 17 years ago
Four score and 17 years ago
Four score and 17 years ago
Four score and 17 years ago
Four score and 17 years ago

Yes the audience went wild but audiences have gone wild over my performances and that reaction in itself does not mean anything was communicated, other than surprise.

I can make audiences cheer due to surprising them as well as anyone but it is not an aspiration of mine to make a career from simply surprising or shocking people.

They were impressed by trombone shortys ability but there was no communication at all that I could detect beyond "I can do the same thing over and over and over and over again without stopping"

I agree trombone shorty was skillful but being skillful is not communication.

Any politician could have given a speech at ghettysburg, but Abraham Lincoln communicated a message that inspired a nation.

Just repeating the same few notes over and over again for 2 minutes or for 2 hours or for 2 days does not move me at all.

I can listen to an entire performance of The Magic Flute, that is 3 hours and 5 minutes and be entertained from beginning to end but 2 minutes of trombone shorty had me losing the will to live.

[Kehaulani]

Almost anything continued for too long outwears it's welcome. It becomes static. I don't call the example communication, I call it pandering. And, IMO, his solo had almost no substance.

[Dr GO]

@trumpetb said in Circular Breathing:

I would counter that there was nothing communicated throughout this clip between 0:43 to 2:41

Four score and 17 years ago
Four score and 17 years ago
Four score and 17 years ago
Four score and 17 years ago
Four score and 17 years ago
Four score and 17 years ago
Four score and 17 years ago
Four score and 17 years ago
Four score and 17 years ago

Yes the audience went wild but audiences have gone wild over my performances and that reaction in itself does not mean anything was communicated, other than surprise.

You are listening in one dimension and in so doing you are refusing to hear. Your example in no way applies. That is one person in an individual response. In the Trombone Shorty clip, you have lost the focus on the background. The changing rhythm patterns, the drummer changing accents, hits, use of symbols, toms, the audience keeping time. The explosion of chanting in the audience even before the explosion of applause.

Then you say "audiences have goes wild over my performances"... No. They don't. They go wild over the ensemble supporting the performance around you. That is communication. If you do not understand this, you do not understand the essence behind communication.

[Dr GO]

@kehaulani said in Circular Breathing:

Almost anything continued for too long outwears it's welcome. It becomes static. I don't call the example communication, I call it pandering. And, IMO, his solo had almost no substance.

I cannot disagree with your first statement. Kenny G playing for 59 minutes is a working example of this. That is NOT communication. It is one person saying "Four Score and 7 years ago" over and over again when Four Score and 7 years ago gets the point across the first time.

But TB Shorty is channeling energy, into the audience, into his rhythm section. That is communication in connecting with many, not just with the one. His solo had much substance as exemplified by the standing ovation he received. No substance = kehaulaii. Substance = Hundreds in the audience. Audience wins in my analysis. They were listening, and they understood his delivery. TB Shouty could communicate with them, and if he left one behind, then it is their loss.

[Trumpetb]

@Dr-GO

Ok Dr that is fair comment.

My personal expectation when listening to an ensemble playing jazz is that the instrument I am supposed to listen to is at the forefront dynamically and the other instruments are supporting in the background during the solo whether that solo performer is on piano sax trumpet bass or percussion.

I can accept that this is a different concept and the trumpet repeated phrases is acting like a drone to the drummers melody.

On the other hand with a scottish piper for example where we have melody and drones together, the melody played on the chanter is supposed to be louder and easier to hear than the drones that support the chanter melody or the melody is drowned out and difficult to hear.

I know what drives audiences to going wild and there are several things that do and one of the principle causes of audiences going wild is a performer playing very high notes sustained for a very long time often with no musicianship whatsoever.

99 times out of 100 just by playing either fast or loud or both will set them off, no skill is necessary.

I think what caused the audience reaction in the clip of trombone shorty was the playing of notes sustained for a very long time.

My feeling is that the audience was responding to the unbroken repetition of the trumpet phrases and not to the drummers performance when they went wild in that clip. I think they would have gone just as wild if the drummer was not playing at all.

As for me, when I said "audiences have gone wild over my performances" and you said in response "No they don't. They go wild over the ensemble supporting the performance around you". That would have been a bit difficult as there was no ensemble around me at all, I was performing a solo as the only performer.

I have upon occasion had audiences going wild over my playing high and my playing long sustained notes, and I am familiar with how the audience reacts when hearing high and long sustained playing, and this audience reacted in exactly that way. I am convinced therefore that their reaction was solely to the trumpet.

The giveaway is that the audience went wild at 2:44 immediately the trumpet ended, the band played on, so the audience went wild in response to the trumpet and nothing else.

Of course I could be way off base here.