Posts made by Trumpetb

I think you are misunderstanding my posts kehaulani.

I never said that racial segregation is the reason for the demise of big bands and associated high energy dancing.

Changes can happen to big bands and dancing without it being an either or, nothing has changed, or it all has ended.

The fact is jazz was always accompanied by high energy dancing and was inseparable from it and the population loved jazz because of the opportunity for them to dance and mix racially just having a good time.

Then racial segregation caused restrictions in dancing in jazz clubs and then led to the ending of dancing in jazz clubs. And when the opportunity to do something dies the desire to do it shrinks or disappears.

I have not travelled widely I can only speak of my city.

In my case in my city I play for the public just about everywhere, and they love to dance wherever and whenever I play, in venues, in clubs, or in the street. They were dancing to my jazz just 2 nights ago but not in a jazz venue I was playing Jazz in several places around the city.

But consider this. Tonight I was in a jazz club for the evening in the audience and nobody danced at all, all night.

In no jazz clubs here do people dance, but everywhere else they dance to jazz. Why might this be.

Could it be that Jazz clubs have lost the association with having a good time and dancing.

I dont have any images right now that I can share that show the signs but I can assure you Kehaulani that such signs existed I have seen them, and the audiences that had no freedom to dance but were only allowed to listen.

There were other instances of segregation prejudice and control during jazz/blues dances and jazz performances that performers had to endure and that other musicians in other genres did not have to suffer or at least not as much.

Jazz and Blues suffered the most of all genres I think. This may not be in the general historical record available to a researcher of Jazz history but it lives in the memories of the Jazz and Blues greats of that time, performers like Ruth Brown, Koko Taylor, Ellie May Thornton..

In the excellent documentary Blues Story I believe it was Ruth Brown who recalled the rope which was used at dances to segregate audiences into racial groups that were not allowed to share the same dance floor or come into any kind of contact during Jazz/Blues performances in dance halls.

Sheriffs would step in and bring the dance to a halt mid performance by snatching the mic from Ruths hand as she was singing and cut the musicians off, no music or singing was allowed and no dancing was allowed until order was once more restored and the sheriff was happy that things were respectable and once again dancers were only dancing in the way the sheriff approved of.

It is only a small step from there to banning dances altogether to make sure that racial groups cannot interact together at the same event.

Even a short period of persecution can have a profound effect on audiences and their behaviour.

If I had to seek approval from a sheriff at a dance before I was allowed to dance the way I wanted, I would not be going back, I would seek other entertainment.

@barliman2001

I think you are totally correct on that, the killjoys definitely rheigned, plus a little bit of good old fashioned prejudice thrown in for good measure.

Let us thank the stars that we live in more enlightened times.

Truly excellent this kind of exuberant display was everywhere in the early days of jazz. Jazz and dance were solidly intertwined up until the 1950s.

The in the USA in the 1950's jazz venues began introducing bans on dancing.

Whether that was a local cultural thing or driven by local by-laws and local restrictions I have no idea.

Signs saying "No Dancing allowed" became commonplace in what were dancehalls until then, I have seen the signs on display in old movies of the period and I believe that this drove a wedge between jazz bands and audiences that remains to this day.

Jazz it appears transitioned from an event full of high octane enjoyment into an activity for polite gatherings where standing or seated audiences politely applaud a fabulous display of musicianship that gets the heart racing and the blood pumping.

People love to dance they do it spontaneously. They dance to a kazoo if they enjoy the kazoo music I have seen that too.

Jazz is not a concert hall activity it is of the people from the people and for the people.

My response was following a member questioning why I spoke of the political system in relation to the soviet citizens and musicians in the past and the possible restrictions that were placed upon them.

I drew a similarity with a modern soviet issue that is causing issues to musicians in ukraine today.

In doing this am I breaking rules here.

Not knowing what is allowed to be posted is very confusing and may ultimately lead to members preferring to post nothing for fear of censure.

If you keep punishing people when they do anything, pretty soon nobody does anything.

In my opinion that is not healthy for a forum.

Unless of course I have offended members with my words, in which case I apologise.

I am not sure I understand Kehaulani, as far as I am aware the thread is simply illustrating two versions of the work the suggestion that the second might be more powerful because of the instruments they played was added later.

I think that comments about the regime that governed life and may have restricted the availability of useable instruments is reasonable.

To speak for example of the inability of ukrainian musicians to perform works in the ukraine but to disallow any mention of russia or the russia ukraine war is perhaps to be needlessly restrictive and hamper free and open discussion.

The question is where do we draw the line.

@Kehaulani

Or maybe we dont perform as well as we used to.

I think there are lots of reasons, I like your direct and no messing about way of expressing yourself Kehaulani, it is very refreshing.

@barliman2001

I love that anecdote I have visions of good communist Zils languishing in garages and barns as the leaders were ferried about in decadent beetles and 2cvs that have much more pep and fun.

I recall that when macdonalds were finally able to open a restaurant in Moscow, the upper echelons and sophisticates on nights out would visit the macdonalds in their finest gowns sampling the fine dining that macdonalds are famous for.

Even the poorest offering from our foreign shores can sometimes be desirable compared to the local produce.

Lets face it a Kiev Tarv just wont cut it compared to a Bach Strad, I know which one I would choose given the chance.

I will offer a different reason

I believe that there is a circle of sound

We form pitches in our embouchure and they exit the bell then we hear the pitch we just created and subconsciously compensate for it and our embouchure subtly changes over time and we approach our own native tone on the setup we play on, or as close as we can achieve to it.

This is I believe the mechanism that defeats a mouthpiece or horn safari, after changing mouthpiece or horn and experience a profound change in timbre our old familiar sound that we left behind before the safari began, begins to emerge again.

After picking up an old instrument we have not played in a while this process happens as we settle back into it slowly and over time we recover the tones we were familiar with on it.

Until that process has completed we will be unhappy with the tones we create on it, once it has completed we are ready for anything.

If this excellent recording by the Leningrad brass sounds this good and this powerful due to their use of home made poorly manufactured instruments made from old car and truck parts then let us all play on such instruments.

I have seen so called musicians complain that they have never managed to get a decent sound out of any bach instrument and likewise other musicians say similar things of shilke or martin or conn.

I have also seen a good musician deliver a superb performance from a so called communist wall-hangar ornament.

I also believe that the communist regime were obsessed by a need to show the superiority of the communist workers over the decadent west and if the instruments really were compromising the performance and making the musicians task impossible then they would have corrected that situation.

I believe that a great musician can make even a stove pipe sound great.

A brass instrument is just a tube, it is the musician that is the heart and soul of a great performance, he does not need some thirty thousand dollar instrument to sound great. The instrument just makes it easier to sound great.

@Ottisiii

There are some great buttons out there it should be a great upgrade, lots of bang for the buck

A trumpet or any brass instrument is not an assembly of parts like a car is, it is a fabrication like an airplane or an air conditioner and requires talent to replace the parts correctly and competently or we crash and burn.

I would only replace a very few parts myself on a trumpet and for all the rest I go to a good tech. It is worth the money and the wait.

For all the parts that I am willing to touch, a quick internet search on "trumpet parts" yields the suppliers of them including ebay dawkes thomann amazon

Home repairers should not be working on the main fabricated parts of an instrument other than to learn the craft of instrument repair. A poor repair can render an instrument useless and require a visit to a tech.

If you are serious about wanting to learn to become an instrument tech, then you will probably want feree's tools to help in the fabrication and repair of the parts including dent removal.

I would consider further research on the topic including jewellery manufacturing techniques. The two occupations instrument repair and jewellery manufacturing, and closer than many think.

I cannot think of any finer aspirations than to become either a competent instrument tech or indeed a jeweller, both deserve huge respect and they have mine.

Love it Dale.

Ok the only way to end this nonsense is for me to declare here and now that it is impossible to make a spring stronger and improve the valve action by stretching it.

It does not work and it will never work.

Do not ever stretch valve springs it is pointless and nobody has ever improved a valve spring action by stretching the spring.

You guys win, you can begin to celebrate now

I dont understand your issue Dr

I say when I stretch springs they become stronger, I have done this many times I did this yet again today and it worked yet again.

It is an observed phenomenon and is easily tested and proved.

It has been used by countless musicians to make their springs stronger over the last 50 years.

It is repeatable it is clear it is easy to test.

It takes thirty seconds to do and costs nothing si why are members refusing to even try it out and instead they say it cannot ever work.

This is unreasonable and illogical and unworthy of this site.

This is like telling Newton that gravity cannot exist and apples cannot fall down because you dont like his explanation of it.

I am not monkeying with k at all and I am not trying to win anything.

I am saying if you stretch springs they get stronger

Why is it important for members to deny the blindingly obvious and easily tested and proven.

Do you Dr believe that if you stretch springs they become stronger and if not why not.

I have done this three times in the last three weeks alone and every time it worked. It always works.

Where is the problem.

Forget k forget any and all explanations of why it might work forget any need to win arguments this is about using a simple phenomenon to improve the valve response if you suffer problems.

In my opinion it is undeniable so can we stop denying it now

Work hardening is well known of course but new expressions now exist to describe work hardening and the whole area is becoming convoluted.

It is perhaps my turn to apologise for using the unfamiliar term stress hardening the problem is terms appear often such as strain hardening and back stress strengthening and I sometimes succumb to the temptation to conflate valid terms, this old dog has his limitations

Abstract - strain hardening
Influence of the pearlite interlamellar spacing on the strain hardening behavior with systematically various pearlite fineness (within the range 140 to 510 nm) obtained by isothermal transformation has been investigated in spring steel 60Si2MnA. Based on the uniaxial tensile tests carried out at ambient temperature, an empirical relationship between the measured strain hardening exponent and interlamellar spacing was found.

A further abstract - back stress strengthening

We report significant back stress strengthening and strain hardening in gradient structured (GS) interstitial-free (IF) steel. Back stress is long-range stress caused by the pileup of geometrically necessary dislocations (GNDs).

The leap to using the term stress hardening is a small one

I believe that technical papers often become inaccessible due to the variety of terms used and using more descriptive terms can be helpful.

Apology for the confusion

Apology accepted.

well said kehaulani

You may be an actual engineer but the real life experience of taking a spring that does not perform well and stretching it, and after the stretching, it then performs well is well known, is proven and is consistently repeatable.

That should be enough for any engineer or do engineers prefer to ignore the behaviour of materials in use that does not fit their expectations and then deny that they behave that way.

Do not deny reality. I do not recall in any training I have received the admonishment to ignore reality and ignore the behaviour of materials in use.

Engineering is about understanding, engineering is not about denying.

I was prepared to say nothing more on this topic but your comments saying that between the two of us you are a "real" engineer amounts to an attack on my credibility.

Suggesting I am not a real engineer will come as news to my employers who employ me as a principal engineer, and by the way I have worked in fabrication in several major industries and have 45 years engineering experience.

I never mention this because I am not a boaster, forgive my boasting now but it is called for here.

An engineer is supposed to recognise how materials behave in service and not deny that they behave in the way they do, simply to preserve their own beliefs or to silence those whose opinions they dislike. Although I admit it does happen.

And where denials of the behaviour of materials has happened in the past, it has led to many of the greatest disasters that have befallen mankind.

The challenger shuttle disaster for example where reports of severe icing taking the solid boosters outside their designed limits and compromised the o ring seals were met with "keep quiet we cant afford a stoppage to the countdown" we all know what denial of truth resulted in there.

I will repeat, if you cannot source a spring that functions correctly then it is possible to change the behaviour of the spring by stretching it and thus changing its behaviour.

I am surprised that an engineer does not know this, but there are many engineers in many different disciplines and none of them know everything including you.

Do you really not know about plastic deformation do you really not know about stress hardening of a spring when it enters the plastic range.

I will explain it.

Once the elastic limit of a spring is exceeded it enters its plastic range and then the length extends plastically and after that the now longer spring performs elastically at its new length.

The spring material undergoes stress hardening that ensures that the spring now performs elastically and will not deform plastically unless once more taken beyond its elastic limit.

Does it really matter that the spring does not perform with the same k value if it now performs satisfactorily and gives continues service.

Why would an engineer ridicule a known solution and prevent users from finding a solution to their problem. An engineer is a solution finder. Unless of course they do not know the known principles.

Stretching a spring where there is no alternative brings a solution at zero cost so why are you opposed to it.

I will give you an example. I have a cornet the valves stuck they were cleaned rigorously and reoiled and nothing worked my diagnosis was weak spring. No new springs were available anywhere so I stretched the springs and the now longer springs perform perfectly and have for a considerable time.

Are you seriously telling me this did not happen. Are you seriously saying the springs were no different after stretching.

If you say spring stretching does not work you are living in a fools paradise.

I will not pull punches because you have not pulled punches with me. A "real" engineer would not deny reality or try to prove that reality does not exist.

Are the members in this site in the business of denying solutions that work and using heavy handed methods to force those that propose them to deny that they exist and beat them into submission and silence them.

Real Engineers push boundaries they do not deny reality using their training to manipulate the facts and manipulate people and thus force their opinions on others.

I have learned a great deal from this exchange.

The most important thing I have learned is not to bring any solutions to this site that do not fit the entrenched beliefs of existing members.

Dont worry members you wont hear much from this principal engineer any more. I will however defend myself if I have to.

And I will refuse to enter into any kind of battle of credentials to try to win points I dont need to win anything.

I dont care for winning points I care about extending knowledge, and it is clear that knowledge cannot be extended in this place when members fight rear guard actions that deny truth and reality so that nobody will ever want to introduce something new and make waves and be laughed out of the site when they try to help.

And by the way I have met this parochial attitude before I have introduced several solutions to mechanical and maintenance problems in the brass community over the years all of which when I introduced them, received heavy ridicule and were opposed tooth and nail at the time but they have now passed into acceptance as valid and useable solutions and I have seen many brass players using them and recommending them to others.

Why do people use logic and reasoning to explain why observed events simply cannot possibly have happened and cannot have been observed and try to force people to believe they did not happen at all.

I am happy to be ridiculed for presenting reality and truth, that says more about the people doing the ridiculing than it does about me.

I am on solid ground here and unphased. My instruments with stretched springs now work perfectly and reliably and I performed on one last night - perfection of valve action despite what you guys want to believe.

I have tried to help the community with a real solution that works and that has worked countless thousands of times in the past for many musicians globally. This site is heavily in denial.

It seems that members who claim to know the truth cannot possibly allow any real world experience and real world solutions that work and they dont like, to be made known in this place.

It is far better to silence anyone who dares to suggest a solution they do not know about and agree with.

I wont be making that mistake again.

Now I suggest for the good of the site we move on and stop the ridicule and attacks and from now on simply discuss only those things that certain members allow to be discussed.

The founder members of this site must be kept happy at all costs even if that means denying the truth.

We do not want after all any solutions to be presented that do not meet with their approval.

Or what about this, and this may be far too radical for members in here, why dont you try it and see, instead of dismissing it as impossible, or is that too much to ask.

@ROWUK

Thanks

Happy to comply

That is very true ROWUK

There is no need of lengthy posts here if members did not have a disposition to replace springs or lap valves that only need a good clean or a change of oil to a better product.

And if a change of springs is really needed, if a correct spring cannot be found what then, dispose of the unplayable instrument and buy another.

If it takes a home fix to resolve an issue and keep an instrument in service then do so.

Posts should only address the original question of course but if a general issue exists that can be resolved by a post even a lengthy one is it not our responsibility as members to make the post so that the issue is resolved for the community.