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    Posts made by grune

    • RE: Does a large bore horn take more air?

      @Niner said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:

      @grune that impresses me. I'm ready to believe you. I'm no scientist and what you write seems logical to me. However I'm wondering about something related. What about size of bell flare relative to apparent loudness in relation to the same lip produced vibration and volume of air? What if a smaller bore horn had a larger bell flare than a larger bore horn with a smaller bell flare? Would that compensate in fullness or loudness of sound with the same volume of air to produce a like heard result?

      Respectfully, I think you are mixing apples and oranges: qualitative with quantitative.

      Quantitative. Loud sound results from high pressure, because our ears respond to pressure. If 2 horns have equal air volumes, and have equal air pressure applied, they should have no difference in sound volume. Sound volume is measured in decibels, which are a logarithmic function for an exponential function. This has no relationship to sound quality.

      Qualitative. "Fullness of sound" is a subjective quality; ie a descriptor, not a definition. The descriptors I use are mellow and shrill. A horn that produces a shrill tone may seem louder than a horn that produces a mellow tone at equal decibels: this perception depends entirely upon the reaction of the listener.

      For a bell, indeed the taper and flare do affect the sound quality, in my experience.
      1/ A bell having a small taper from valve block to near end of bell, with a pronounced bell flare at the end. The small taper helps to maintain the air pressure along the length of the bell, and the flare gives an abrupt change in pressure, thereby releasing the wave energy quickly. Such a bell will produce a directional sound, and that sound will tend to be shrill or brighter or whatever descriptor you choose.
      2/ A bell having a large taper from valve block to end of bell, with a smaller bell flare at end. The large taper creates a gradual change in pressure, thereby releasing the energy gradually. Such a bell will produce a more open, rounder sound, and that sound will be mellow or darker or whatever descriptor you choose.
      3/ The metals used in the horn will also have great affects upon the sound.

      Long ago, I sampled a variety of horns of various metals, when Yamaha was breaking into the market. It was a fascinating experience. Yamaha made horns with different alloys and pure metals. Cost them a fortune to do. A pure lead metal horn created a nearly pure sine wave on the oscilloscope: too pure, no harmonics, the sound was terrible. A pure copper horn was so mellow and soft, it could not be heard against even a clarinet! A pure silver horn was very bright, tending to shrill. The solid metal horns were extremely fragile. Then came the alloys; gold, silver, copper, tin, aluminium, nickel, yellow brass, and others I cannot recall. When all was tried, said and done, the horns that were considered the best for sound, projection, and playability were yellow brass!

      posted in Instruments Discussion
      grune
      grune
    • RE: Does a large bore horn take more air?

      Well, allow me to have a go at this, please. Correct me if incorrect. Simplistic...

      The question is: do I need more air for a larger bore? The answer: it depends.

      Why: Boyle’s Principle. Pressure and volume have an inverse function. If volume increases, pressure decreases.

      Why is this relevant? Our ears. Our ears respond to 2 factors only: pressure and vibration. Our ears transform pressure and vibration into a signal to our brain, and our brain interprets this signal as sound.

      So, to produce a sound from a trumpet, we need pressure and vibration. So how to do?

      First, some basics.

      1. A trumpet is filled with ambient air, and air has mass, and thus the ambient air will have an inertial resistance to change.
      2. To produce a sound, that air must be disturbed; i.e perturbed, which results in perturbations.
      3. When the perturbations repeat consistently in cycles over a unit of time, they become vibrations, and we call this a frequency.
      4. When we increase the pressure of the perturbations within the trumpet, we increase the potential energy of those perturbations; and when that energy is released at the end of the trumpet (the bell), we hear this release of increased pressure as an increase in amplitude (loud).
      5. No frequency, no sound. The source and means of frequency is our lips.
      6. No pressure, no sound. The source and means of pressure is the air from our lungs applied to the ambient air inside the trumpet.

      Q1. So, do WE need air to make a sound?
      A1. YES. Why? The air we push out from our lungs vibrates our lips. No air across our lips, no vibration. Try vibrating your lips without blowing air through them.

      Q2. Does the trumpet need extra air to make a sound?
      A2. NO. Why? The trumpet is already filled with ambient air. It needs a perturbation and a pressure to get that air to vibrate and produce the sound we hear.

      Q3. So why do we see almost no air flowing out of the horn, when we use the smoke method? After all, when we ‘blow’ into the mouthpiece, we feel the release of air from the mouthpiece (m/p). Why is the bell output different from the m/p input (ie why the smoke test shows near zero air flow)?

      A3. The key is Volume.
      (a) First, we need to know exactly what occurs when air is vibrated at a specific frequency.
      A wave is created, having nodes and antinodes. Textbooks illustrate this as a 'sine wave'; but this is incorrect, actually. Both the sine and cosine waves should be shown graphically, sort of like this … ∞∞∞ (I am trying to keep the physics to a minimum).
      Why is this important? Because this is how the wave forms inside the trumpet, what exits, and what you hear. What we hear is the antinode, because this is the amplitude: the node has zero amplitude, but maximum pressure. The node must form at the bell: thus the bell shape and volume are critical for sound.
      (b) If you blow directly into the lead pipe, you will feel air flow out of the bell (but no pitch). But the outflow will very be very much slower than what you inflow, and it will have much less force (pressure). The reason is simple; volume. As volume increases, pressure must decrease. If the outflow point has a much greater area than the inflow point, the flow from input to output will be very much reduced. The analogy is using a garden hose to fill an outdoor pool. Only a very small volume of water can be pumped through a garden hose, but with high pressure the flow velocity can be very high. If a small volume container is filled, the fill rate is rapid. But try to fill a pool, and the fill rate is very slow. The reason is volume. To prevent overflow, the pool may have an exit port. If the exit port is very much larger in area than the hose nozzle, the flow and pressure of water exiting the pool will be very slow and very low.
      (c) So with Volume, Pressure, Velocity, Frequency, we can now comprehend our trumpet and our interaction.
      (i) We fill the m/p with a volume of air, moving at some velocity, and vibrating at some frequency. The m/p exit hole is about 3mm. The cup width/depth varies greatly, but let’s peg at 16mm x 8mm. If the bowl is semi-spherical, the max volume will be 2.15ml. The air exiting the m/p will have a noticeable pressure and velocity.
      (ii) As our air flows through the trumpet, it must flow through an ever increasing volume. Two results: the pressure decreases; and the wave from the m/p elongates and drops in frequency. If the exit diameter at the bell is 70mm, this alone will account for a reduction of over 20x the input pressure. When we consider the volume of the horn to the m/p volume, the scale factor is huge. Thus the combined factors result in a very low volume and low pressure of air exiting the horn: the resulting air flow may be <1% of the input. Thus we perceive almost zero effects for the smoke test.

      Q4. So what about sound volume? Why must I blow harder to get more sound volume? Notice: we are talking about “sound volume” (ie Amplitude) exiting the horn, not physical “air volume”.
      A4. Pressure. (physics: the node is point of maximum pressure, thus the antinode is the least pressure). Amplitude is the antinode. Thus for a max antinode, we must have a max node (pressure). We create pressure by blowing air into a vessel (m/p) that is less in volume than the feedstock volume (our lungs). The more pressure we create, the more resulting amplitude.

      Q5. Ok. But what about the high notes? Why do these require more effort than the lower notes?
      A5. 2 reasons.
      (i) Our bodies are very limited in capacity. Our lips are extremely limited and weak: in “natural” state, they are simply not engineered to vibrate at high tension to create high frequency vibrations. We must train our lips/embouchure into a very unnatural state. This requires effort to develop and to apply on demand.
      (ii) High notes result from high frequencies exiting the horn. A high frequency requires many times more nodes than a low frequency. Nodes result from pressure. Thus as frequency increases, we must apply more air pressure to create the nodes AND we must increase the tension in our embouchure. The combined factors result in an exponential function: ever increasing tension and pressure.

      Q6. Bore. How does the bore of the trumpet factor into all this?
      A6. Complicated. The bore relates to the diameter of the tubing at valve #2. In theory, a larger diameter tube will have volume greater than a smaller diameter. But this does not mean a trumpet of L bore will have an overall volume greater than one of ML bore: the bell shape and length is a significant factor to overall volume, and thus an L bore horn can be equal in overall volume to an ML bore horn, and vice versa. Added to this, is the internal resistance of each horn, which is in itself a very complicated aspect to analyse: lead pipe taper; thickness of tubes; radius of bends; bell taper and flare; and more are all factors. Added to this is “dual bore”, where the connection to the bell is usually larger than the rated bore: which creates a lower pressure point within the horn, and presumably this results in lesser internal resistance.

      So does a larger bore horn require more air? The honest answer is “it depends”.

      I hope this long winded post has not bored too many people.

      posted in Instruments Discussion
      grune
      grune
    • RE: Does a large bore horn take more air?

      @Dr-GO

      posted in Instruments Discussion
      grune
      grune
    • RE: Student trumpets

      @Gendreauj said in Student trumpets:

      Haven't played any student trumpets made in the 21st century. Playing a Getzen 590 step up cornet and soon a Getzen 700 trumpet.

      Just bought a Bach 700 trumpet and a Calicilo trumpet. Interesting to see how they compare with the Getzen.

      May we know your comparisons?

      posted in Bb & C Trumpets
      grune
      grune
    • Repair wooden cases?

      Can anyone recommend anybody who repairs the older, wooden cases?
      Thanks.

      posted in Repairs & Modifications
      grune
      grune
    • RE: Does a large bore horn take more air?

      Excuse, if this link is posted somewhere else. It's a scientist's explanation of no air.

      posted in Instruments Discussion
      grune
      grune
    • RE: Survey: How do YOU test a new trumpet?

      Great replies. Thanks.
      [My internet disconnected while starting this post. So now for my own "method".]

      My criteria are build quality, tone, ease of play. Build quality is by visual and tactile. The horn must be comfortable in my hands and balanced in my arms. All parts must be solid and fit/operate perfectly.

      For tone, I test with a Bach 3C. I find the 3C gives me a good balance for tone. If core, sparkle, etc are present with a 3C, I know what to expect for a 1.5C and a shallower "lead" m/p.

      I start by playing low C, D, E. I am determining the intonation of the D. Next is upper E, F, G, A, Bb. If I must use excessive slide to attain intonation, I reject the horn. Then comes a Bb scale from bottom to top, again for intonation.

      Then comes Clarke 2, 47, 48, 49. If the valves are not to my liking, I reject.

      Then comes my own variation of Schlossberg 28, 34. I am determining how easy or difficult is the horn to play intervals and range. I focus on the harmonics of mid C, to E, to G, to the harmonic Bb, then upper C. This is an acid test. Only very good horns will permit easily the slur to upper C. Then comes lip trills. If the horn resists, I reject.

      Lastly, I will play a tune in the key of Bb, as I find a Bb horn sounds best in this key. Usually it's my own version of Impossible Dream, starting on low D. I will start 'pp", and then work to "fffff" to determine whether consistent tonal quality and intonation, and whether the horn will permit me to develop full power.

      This permits a quick assessment. If passed, the horn goes on my wish list.

      posted in Bb & C Trumpets
      grune
      grune
    • RE: Some good...."non-trumpeting" music :)

      posted in Lounge
      grune
      grune
    • Survey: How do YOU test a new trumpet?

      When choosing a new trumpet, what are your criteria? What do you play for your test, and why?

      posted in Bb & C Trumpets
      grune
      grune
    • RE: Best Off-brand Trumpets

      That horn from Germany, made in pure nickle tubing would be very interesting to try. Generally, I dislike the sound of nickel, but always willing to try something new.

      posted in Bb & C Trumpets
      grune
      grune
    • RE: Best Off-brand Trumpets

      @Robrtx said in Best Off-brand Trumpets:

      I'm not sure if it would be considered an "off-brand" but I believe that Carol Brass offers a lot of bang for the buck. Also, anything sold under the brand of trusted sellers on this forum ACB (Trent) or Jaeger Trumpets (Ivan) though not "major" brands would be good players (because they would not let anything leave their shop that was not) at a fair value........

      I have played Carol Brass horns at Carol Brass in Taiwan. Very good horns in all respects. But they are only slightly better in quality than a good OEM Chinese horn. None have the symphonic sound like a Bach, and the "smokey" sounding ones have no appeal to me. I found all had a bright sound, and all felt resistant... All except one, the 8060H Balanced Trumpet, Louis Armstrong inspired. This 8060H is truly a great horn: a lovely open sound and easy to blow and great mechanics. The 8060H is the only horn in memory that comes closest to the Armstrong Selmer I played very long ago. Great as an all-rounder, and great balance. CB retail price is high now, so difficult to endorse for the price/value ratio. But the 8060H may be worth the price. It's on my wish list now.

      posted in Bb & C Trumpets
      grune
      grune
    • RE: Best Off-brand Trumpets

      @djeffers78 said in Best Off-brand Trumpets:

      I have a Cecilio trumpet and a Brasspire cornet. Both are great instruments

      I have played the Brasspire pro line at Brasspire Japan. Very good horns for the price: build, finish, feel in hands, very good valves. Sound is on the brighter side. Could be a daily horn. Only one model gave me the blow I wanted. The others felt restrictive in upper register, had a compressed sound.

      posted in Bb & C Trumpets
      grune
      grune
    • RE: Best Off-brand Trumpets

      @administrator said in Best Off-brand Trumpets:

      I have heard that Jin-Bao are acceptable.

      I have played the top JinBao horns at JinBao. I would put them at the student category. Good mechanics and materials, decent intonation, decent bright sound, but the sound is compressed and the blow resists in the upper register. I could not develop full power.

      posted in Bb & C Trumpets
      grune
      grune
    • RE: Is Thomann-USA American-based?

      Well, I know where their horns are made, and by whom: China. I tried the horns recently at the manufacturer. The 'top" ones I played were very nice, and great for the wholesale price.

      posted in Bb & C Trumpets
      grune
      grune
    • RE: Interesting composition tool: Impro-Visor

      @tjcombo said in Interesting composition tool: Impro-Visor:

      Impro-Visor

      Thanks for informing us !

      posted in Jazz / Commercial
      grune
      grune
    • RE: Does a large bore horn take more air?

      Very interesting discussion. I have not played all trumpets, nor all mouthpieces, ever produced. For those I have played, I find the mouthpiece is the determining factor for all aspects: particularly for the volume of air I feel I need in my lungs. For horns, inconsistent: some M bore have been difficult to play, and some ML bore have been easier to play. Probing my memory from long ago, I recall the medium bore horns had overall a brighter timbre than the large bore, when the same mouthpiece was used for all.

      posted in Instruments Discussion
      grune
      grune
    • RE: Does a large bore horn take more air?

      @Kehaulani What do you mean, "take more air"? Technically, yes, a larger bore is a larger diameter, which creates a larger volume of air.

      posted in Instruments Discussion
      grune
      grune
    • RE: Is a $280 New Bach Stradivarius Trumpet too good to be true?

      @ROWUK said in Is a $280 New Bach Stradivarius Trumpet too good to be true?:

      @stumac I think that most are dead because the market did not want what they were making - for the price that they were asking. Value is an interesting concept and it is still exists today. When businesses expand, they take a risk. When businesses have more overhead than turnover, they have a problem.

      I admire the Chinese for their granular production. The same production line can build a $50 or a $1000 trumpet. The quality is determined by the person placing the order not the artisan. I have played prototypes of both. The knowledgable reseller does not HAVE to screw their customer.

      On another side, I bought a 3d printer and have been printing mouthpieces. They are WAY TOO GOOD. I am not selling or taking orders, I am learning and offering my students the possibility to play before they pay. They can evaluate what the difference between an A, B, C, D, E cup is as well as backbores and rim shapes. Then they buy what works. There has not been much R&D on natural trumpet mouthpieces - just copies made of historical ones without knowledge if they were „high performance“ back then. For less than $1, I can experiment until I am happy. Then the 3d model can be made in silver, brass, copper or any printable plastic. Will this change the mouthpiece market - I certainly believe so. Print on demand could be a great advantage to a pro shop. No appreciable inventory. The printers with suitable resolution are available. Kelly mouthpiece anyone?

      Agree. Advancements in 3D tech mean printing [sinter] in many metals is only a matter of time. Silver-alloy may be soon forthcoming.

      posted in Bb & C Trumpets
      grune
      grune
    • RE: A little humour

      cavemanarithmetic.jpg

      caveman math.

      posted in Lounge
      grune
      grune
    • RE: Trumpets Made ONLY by Their Maker

      @administrator said in Trumpets Made ONLY by Their Maker:

      A maker by very definition makes the thing they are maker of. The question really asks, "are there any trumpets where all of their parts are made and assembled in-house?"

      In that case, for a trumpet that is hand-made by a single craftsman in-house, click these links:

      http://www.musik-loebner.de/Musikhaus_Loebner.php?Loebners=Zylinderjazztrompete.html#close

      [these will be in the category of... if you must ask for the price, you cannot afford it. ] 🙂

      posted in Bb & C Trumpets
      grune
      grune
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