More physiological than medical

_Mark_

I'm unsure of where to post a question about teeth. I have been learning to play trumpet for about three months, and I'm struggling with many aspects, one of which is where to put the mouthpiece in relation to uneven front teeth. I have come to believe that teeth are a make or break matter, but haven't seen it talked about anywhere. If a tooth protrudes, the mouthpiece can only be centered on it, right? This question seems to be at least partly responsible for preventing me from getting consistent high notes.

Richard III

Push your lips away from your teeth. Make a cushion. The outer part of the lips should remain relaxed. Contract towards the center when needed behind that point. All this and the teeth rarely matter.

_Mark_

@richard-iii said in More physiological than medical:

Push your lips away from your teeth. Make a cushion. The outer part of the lips should remain relaxed. Contract towards the center when needed behind that point. All this and the teeth rarely matter.

OK. I see what you mean. That puts the ball back in my court in terms of needing but not having yet the necessary musculature around my mouth. I'll just keep at it. It's frustratingly slow to have to build up muscles from nothing just to be able to get that higher 'g' and the seemingly impossible notes above it.

barliman2001

Teeth don't usually matter, unless you have a massive under- or overbite. Tension is all-important, and mouthpiece pressure as well (or rather studied lack of same). The more mouthpiece pressure you put on your lips, the more important teeth become; but at the same time, the more damage you can do to your lips, ranging from occasional tingling to numbness to full-blown, even irreversible, lip paralysis. So your focus at your stage of trumpet playing should not be on high notes (and if your teacher focuses on high notes, you should immediately change to another one!), but on consistency and low pressure within the first octave. And you can achieve that by following Rowuk's Circle of Breath (it's a staple topic here, you should be able to find it easily) and a low-pressure approach by practising long low notes.

_Mark_

@barliman2001 Thank you! I'm on my own. No teacher. It's taken me three months to be able to play from low f# up two octaves and be able to tongue notes.

barliman2001

@_mark_ Good for you. But from now on you will need a teacher - if only to show you where you go into those pitfalls every self-taught trumpet player encounters. I suggest either Brian Graber in New Orleans who does excellent online work (https://briangraber.com) or Glenn Butler in Arizona if you're somewhere in the US; if you're somewhere in Europe, you can't go wrong with Robin Wukits (https://www.facebook.com/public/Robin-Wukits) here known as Rowuk the Sage.

ROWUK

@_mark_
Hi Mark,
the biggest issue is simply giving yourself enough time to build the right habits the first time around. The trumpet is first and foremost a "wind instrument", and that should be your focus.

Most trumpeters go through various stages of development. We start with "whatever we can get" and advance to a level that is hard to break though. Then we figure something out (or get help) and the next step comes along. At one point in time, we all have a bit of proficiency BUT want more range and end up using pressure to get it. This is legitimate, as pressure works - up to a point. The problem is, if we build a pressure habit, we will have to break it to get to the next step. Habits are tough to break as any drinker/smoker can tell us.

When we are at this stage, we need to ask the questions - how much is improvement worth and when does it make sense to make any changes. Very often a decision is made in mid playing season and the player only ends up screwing up his own reputation.

We make changes out of playing season! We can lay the plans and make preparations but never ever take a risk during times when we can play in public!

As far as teeth go, mine are crooked and I played to the side for 30 years. Then I mage some changes in my routine (more lipslurs and longtones), and the embouchure wandered more or less to the middle where I have been playing for the last 25 years.

I had an accident 18 months ago and now have a full denture instead the bottom teeth (no choice). Thanks to the Corona season, I had time to adjust and my playing is about where it was before the accident. My Circle of Breath, Earl Irons lip flexibilities, long tones and a lot of hymnbook were the way back.

As far as a teacher goes, I really do recommend getting some lessons early to at least get the daily routine, body use and ones own expectations pointed in the right direction. After that, success is very dependent on the players motivations. Even after 55 years of playing at all levels, I still take occasional lessons - some trumpet, some body use. There is still a whole lot to learn.

Best regards and good luck,

Rowuk

_Mark_

@rowuk Thank you! I'll take your advice to heart. I'm just starting to play in retirement on social security. I only want to play music for myself. I don't even like the sound of very high notes and don't have technical ambitions.

I played and struggled with guitar for decades, but it was always frustrating and unsatisfying. I'd always wanted to try the trumpet.

I finally got an inexpensive instrument and found that it feels like coming home, in spite of the awful sounds I was producing. I'm getting better, sounding better, although awkward in every way, and sometimes, I seem to lose the gains I'd thought I'd made yesterday. Still, I'm enjoying it every day.

My budget will never allow for a good instrument or teacher. It will have to be ear effort, books, youtube.

I have one 'buck tooth' and some overbite. I'm trying to come to some kind of accommodation with this. It becomes very difficult above 'f'. My upper lip is pulled tight and thin over that one tooth. A lot of songs require that 'g' and 'a' up there, but so far, I'm not getting them. Three months, so far.

I won't give up, though. I'm loving it too much.

Thanks again.

Richard III

Ton of free stuff here. Really good information. I would work thought all the material.

[link text](http://www.bbtrumpet.com/home-page/[link text](link url))

GeorgeB

@_mark_

My heart goes out to you, Mark. Living on a fixed income is difficult in the best of times, and really tough in these times of Covid.
I've been on a fixed income for 20 years now and what had been a really comfortable emergency savings situation has eroded over the years. But like me, you have learned to adjust and get by.
In my life, music is probably one of the most important things that keep me sane. I lost my wife to cancer in 2012 after a long marriage (56 years ) and I was devastated. But by 2015 I was climbing out of a dark hole back up into the light and my friends, several of them musicians, convinced me to take a crack at picking up the horn again. In the spring of 2016 I did. I hadn't played in 50 years so playing again wasn't easy. But, surprisingly, things started to come back quickly and by the fall I was playing first chair with the local Horizons band and from then on I really started to improve. Today I am playing with one of the most respected community bands in my province,
So stick with it, Mark. Things will improve with time, and there will always be good days and bad days, because the horn is a bitch, but if you love the bitch and stick with her, you will be well rewarded, my friend,
Cheers,
George

_Mark_

@georgeb it's encouraging to hear how you've held on and pulled through. I haven't yet had to face nearly as much, thankfully. But having music to enjoy, think on, and try to play, has got me through life, and now surgeries, poverty, and this pandemic. I don't know how people can live without it.

GeorgeB

@_mark_

I couldn't agree more, Mark.

Music is magic in how it affects the soul.

Honestly, making music, and especially performing for an audience with my 5 piece combo back in the 50s and 60s was something I thrived on. Playing now, 50 years later, it has become my salvation.

Now, getting back to you and your eagerness to play the trumpet, just be sure you are not playing with a mouthpiece that is too large. It could be one of the things making above the staff difficult for you.

_Mark_

@georgeb I suspect that I am. Because of trying to work over and around that one buck tooth, I've picked up a couple of mouthpieces being called 2b, 2c, 3b, 3c in a set with four separate cups and two rims stamped 2 and 3. I also have the 7c that came with the trumpet. So far, I'm going back and forth between them searching for the one that makes it all work. I'm sure that I haven't yet developed the facial muscles I need, either. I know this is going to take time. i also picked up a used Yamaha sb7 through which I play. i know there is back pressure, but I'm in a small home and can't torture my wife, or the neighbors with my sometimes ridiculous razzing and flubbing.

Richard III

And then there is another approach. Switch to baritone/euphonium. When I play mine, all of the trumpet problems go away. Range is easy. Endurance is not a problem. The larger mouthpiece makes life no longer a chore. Here's the current goal for this project.

I know most people think switching instruments is heresy. But making beautiful music is making beautiful music.

GeorgeB

@_mark_

Yeah, if they are Bach mouthpieces the inside rim diameter sizes are as follows:
The 2 series 16.50mm
The 3 series 16.30 mm
The 7C is the smallest at 16.20 mm

The C cups are medium and the B cups are medium deep

I always found the 7 to be a cookie cutter ( sharp rim ). The 3 not too bad for comfort, but the 5 size ( 16.25 ) always worked best for me.
NOTE: the deeper cups are more tiring on the lips, bad news if you want to build range.

Spend some time on long tone exercises, especially whole notes. They help you develop good breathing and a smooth tone...and even endurance. The next important thing is working on scales. Start with a one octave C scale ( C below the staff to mid C on the staff ) and slowly over time work your way up a second octave until that great day when you discover you can play a HIGH C ABOVE THE STAFF.

Hope this helps,
George

_Mark_

@richard-iii I like this idea, however, a glance shows no affordable instruments in the market. Heresy is not a worry! I have some guitars to trade, but liquidity is in the nether region.

_Mark_

@georgeb Thank you, again! I was having trouble determining the practical difference between those cups.

Richard III

@_mark_ said in More physiological than medical:

@richard-iii I like this idea, however, a glance shows no affordable instruments in the market. Heresy is not a worry! I have some guitars to trade, but liquidity is in the nether region.

Just a quick glance at Ebay found this one for $350. A good starting point.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HOLTON-B480R-COLLEGIATE-STUDENT-MODEL-3-VALVE-Bb-EUPHONIUM-T45/124397525441?hash=item1cf6ab99c1:g:OwUAAOSwPOhfjx4a

_Mark_

@richard-iii I appreciate your tip, and I will keep the euphonium in mind for the future and possible better times. Sadly, $400 now is prohibitive for someone working down his debt and whose savings went out with roof repairs in 2019. Apart from this, I might have skipped that horn as it seems to be fairly well dented up. I do not know, from inexperience, the extent of denting that might be harmless to the sound and playability of a horn.

GeorgeB

@_mark_

If you don't plan on joining any community band and will be playing mostly for your own enjoyment, I would stick with the trumpet. Every day, things will improve, and one day down the road you will look back and marvel at how far you have come.

George