Opinions on Valve Oils?

[Newell Post]

So, here's a recent valve oil story. And the answer is........ Monster Oil "Smoother (Our Thickest)."

A while ago I bought a Bach Mercedes from a guy, just for a backup horn and because it was cheap. The serial number dates it to about 1980. It has a few dings, but no major dents. The silver plate is 99% and the valves have excellent compression.

The first thing I did when I got it was (of course) a thorough cleaning. After that cleaning, it had two small problems: the first and third slides were very sticky and the first and second valves would hang up slightly on the upstroke. I polished the slides with Flitz and I also polished the pistons and casings VERY slightly first with Flitz and then with toothpaste.

After a second VERY thorough cleaning, the slides were perfect, but the valves still balked once in the while. (They felt perfect when first picking up the horn. But after playing for a while, as the horn warmed up, the valves would still balk on the upstroke once in a while.) Hetman #1 and #2 didn't seem to make any difference.

Next, I replaced the valve guides, valve springs, felts, and even the valve stems with new Bach OEM parts and did a third very thorough cleaning. This time I tried all 3 Hetman oils and still had occasional valve upstroke problems. At this point, I thought: "OK. That exhausts my bag of tricks. It has to go to the tech. But, oh wait. The shop is closed due to COVID-19. It will need to wait for a while. No problem. I have other horns."

But, since I'm mostly stuck at home, I thought I would try some of the Monster Oil "Smoother" I have sitting around for vintage horns, just as an experiment. I wiped everything off and applied the oil. When inserting the pistons in the casings, I made sure to rotate the pistons in the casings 3 or 4 turns before locking them in, just to make sure the oil coated all 360 degrees. And what do you know? It worked. At least so far, after about a week of playing: no valve hang ups.

I don't really have a good explanation for this. If the valves were too tight, you would expect the thinner/light oils to work better. But the heavier Monster Oil seems to be the answer for this horn, for whatever reason.

[grune]

@Newell-Post

You have experienced the effect of increased viscosity. Viscosity is the ratio of the tangential strain to the deformation strain of the liquid at a given temperature. The tangential is caused by the piston travel. The deformation is inherent to the chemistry of the liquid: thus lower means greater viscosity. The dimension is [force x time]/area. The unit is newton-second per square meter.

Effectively, it means your piston is contacting the casing to the point where the friction overcomes the viscosity of the oil. In your case, the heavy oil has sufficient viscosity to overcome the contact friction. Your valves will not gain speed until you lessen the contact.

The problem is solved by process of elimination. 1/ Start with a bore plug of the exact size needed: not a micron more or less. If the plug cannot travel freely in the casing, the casing is bent. 2/ The piston must be perfectly straight: which requires tools and skill to assess. 3/ The valve stem must be lapped/honed properly within the casing, to the point where you are satisfied with piston speed and smoothness for the oil you choose.

If 1 and 2 are perfect, and your valves are monel coated, you are in luck: the pistons can be lapped/honed. Contrary to belief, monel is soft, which enables lapping within the casing. If your pistons are stainless steel, they cannot be lapped within the casing: hard steel will destroy the softer brass or nickel casing.

[Newell Post]

@grune Thanks, grune. It's a Bach Mercedes, which uses the Strad valve block, so the pistons are monel. If the oil doesn't continue to address the problem, I'll take it to the tech to check the tolerances, assuming the shop ever re-opens.

[IrishTrumpeter]

@Dr-GO said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

@djeffers78 said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

Preferably Hetmans 2
But anything works fine as long as it’s not Blue Juice
If Holton oil was still a thing I’d still use it. I’ve heard Linzoil is the same but haven’t tried it

I used both Holton (my initial favorite) and Blue Juice. I also was tempted by Monster Oil. Of these Monster Oil really slowed down my valve action, Blue Juice was just OK, and Holton did fine. However Ultra Pure gives me the fastest action, lasts the longest and leaves less residue in between oiling as I noted from wiping down the valves prior to re applying oil. Learned the valve wipe down technique from Rowuk.

Hey Dr Go - would you have a link/description of the Valve wipedown technique?

[grune]

CAUTION
update on Tromba T3 oil. photo of product purchased is below, note the amber colour.

After 1 week of using T3, I see turquoise-blue residue in bottom valve caps and on the tissue used to clean the piston casing bore. This can be only one thing: copper sulphate. This means the T3 is reacting to the brass in my horn, causing copper to leach from the brass. This means the T3 must contain sulphur, which accounts for the amber colour; and, it must be active sulphur.

Why sulphur? Sulphur can bond to other metals and provide a very smooth surface to enhance lubrication. 'Active' sulphur will bond under very low temperatures: 'inactive' requires high temperatures. But active sulphur is also corrosive to certain metals, notably brass.

Both sulphur and copper-sulphate are toxic.

NONE OF THIS IS DISCLOSED BY TROMBA IN ITS PRODUCT LITERATURE NOR LABEL. Tromba should be sued in a class action under many counts.

[barliman2001]

All valve oils can age, specially under the influence of light, and will then change their colour. THIS IS A SIGN THAT THIS OIL SHOULD NOT BE USED ANYMORE, according to trumpet makers Hermann Ganter (RIP) and Gerd Dowids. Your picture clearly shows a bottle of T3 that has aged for several years. Originally, it is crystal clear and without colour, as shown by this picture:
https://www.thomann.de/de/la_tromba_ag_t3_valve_oil_ultra_thin.htm

[GeorgeB]

@barliman2001

Is La Tromba synthetic or petroleum ?

[grune]

@barliman2001
A very interesting point. If the oil has a shelf life, then why is the expiry date not noted on the label? And, if the oil does have toxic or corrosive compounds, why are these not noted on the label?

[barliman2001]

Oils, when kept in the dark - as the paper box usually tells us - don't age for several years, that's why. If you keep them in the light - such as shop shelving for too long, they can suffer from exposure.

[Kehaulani]

@IrishTrumpeter said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

@Dr-GO said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

@djeffers78 said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

Preferably Hetmans 2
But anything works fine as long as it’s not Blue Juice
If Holton oil was still a thing I’d still use it. I’ve heard Linzoil is the same but haven’t tried it

I used both Holton (my initial favorite) and Blue Juice. I also was tempted by Monster Oil. Of these Monster Oil really slowed down my valve action, Blue Juice was just OK, and Holton did fine. However Ultra Pure gives me the fastest action, lasts the longest and leaves less residue in between oiling as I noted from wiping down the valves prior to re applying oil. Learned the valve wipe down technique from Rowuk.

Hey Dr Go - would you have a link/description of the Valve wipedown technique?

"The Valve-cleating Technique"? LOL. It's just cleaning you valves, isn't it?
See if this is what you're looking for:

[Dr GO]

@IrishTrumpeter said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

Hey Dr Go - would you have a link/description of the Valve wipedown technique?

The video above is for a compulsive cleaning. With weekly oiling, I skip all but the wipe down of the pistons. That I always do, and will also clear away all of the biofilm on the rim of the valve bore.

[tmd]

@Dr-GO said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

@IrishTrumpeter said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

Hey Dr Go - would you have a link/description of the Valve wipedown technique?

The video above is for a compulsive cleaning. With weekly oiling, I skip all but the wipe down of the pistons. That I always do, and will also clear away all of the biofilm on the rim of the valve bore.

Same here. I use a lint-free cloth to wipe down the valves and valve casings. I also use a tissue to wipe out any grime from the bottom valve vent and the valve caps. Then I re-oil the valves. I do this once a week.

These are the cloths I use.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0050R68LS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title

Mike

[Kehaulani]

@Dr-GO said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:
The video above is for a compulsive cleaning. With weekly oiling, I skip all but the wipe down of the pistons. That I always do, and will also clear away all of the biofilm on the rim of the valve bore.

Seems to me that the OP is a novice so thorough orientation might be in order.

[Dr GO]

@Kehaulani said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

Seems to me that the O is a novice so thorough orientation might be in order.

Orientation on how to oil valves? Do you compulsively take apart your trumpet every week to clean out the casings, run cloth through the pistons, then oil... from what the video shows as a 5 minute process? The quick wipe down that Mike and I use (Rowuk as well) takes under a minute. Seems to me that the K has a compulsion and a visit to his psychologist might be in order.

[Kehaulani]

@Dr-GO said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:
Orientation on how to oil valves?

Well evidently or he wouldn't have asked the question.

[grune]

@barliman2001
Age would not alter the elements, thus the sulphur would be present in old and new oil. Again, sulphur is highly corrosive to brass and toxic to humans. The presence of sulphur should be noted on the label.

[GeorgeB]

The video shown here is exactly the way I was taught
( many moons ago...well 1953 to be exact ) to properly maintain the valves, but not every time you oil them. I used to do the complete thing maybe every third or fourth week, depending on how much playing I had been doing.

[barliman2001]

@grune said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:

@barliman2001
Age would not alter the elements, thus the sulphur would be present in old and new oil. Again, sulphur is highly corrosive to brass and toxic to humans. The presence of sulphur should be noted on the label.

As far as I know, any petroleum distillate contains a small amount of sulphur because this is a natural ingredient of crude oil.

[Dr GO]

@barliman2001 said in Opinions on Valve Oils?:
...sulphur ...a natural ingredient of crude oil.

Which would explain why the call it crude.

[grune]

@barliman2001 re distillates. respectively, in a word, incorrect.